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In Reply to: RE: Class D for Acoustats posted by morricab on February 11, 2016 at 01:01:12
morricab, I sent you an e-mail, but I didn't realize you had replied here to my question about Class D.
Have you any experience with the Acoustat amps (TNT-120 in particular) driving Acoustat speakers? I am currently using one on my Model 3s and am pretty please (actually pleased as punch) with the sound, but I always wonder what more can be had. Would tubes be a noticeable improvement, in your opinion?
My next tweak is going to be QRD diffusers on the front wall directly in line with the rear wave of the speakers and bass traps, so we'll see how that goes, but I am always interested in even more of that holographic sound stage.
Follow Ups:
Great amps for the speaker. That is how I spent my two weeks with the 2+2. + a sub.
used the 200 version of the TNT.
Amp can use some parts upgrades but a solid design and a perfect match. Good tube amps can do better.
I use a H20-S250 built by Henry Ho, it's classD, it's better than my Krell ksa 100 on 2+2's more tuby sound.
I remember him as an early adopter of the technology. Had great reviews in the day.
Class D brought the first real world amps that could drive a 1 ohm Scintie.
I am always on watch for ESL users who like class D amps on their speakers as their resolution and complex load tend to trip up so many otherwise fine amps. Do you perceive any "white powdery grain" at the top octave on the S250?
A guy I know from Holland had the Signature monos from H2O and while they do indeed drive Scintillas (the guy who owned them...and several other Dutch guys I know had or have Scintillas) they didn't sound particularly good doing so. We compared them to a Sphinx Project 16 and a pair of bridged Classe DR3s. The Sphinx was tops, the Classe not too far behind and the H2Os were dragging far behind in 3rd sonically.
A DR3 can drive a 1 ohm load bridged ..?The Class-D amplifiers i have tried had timbral issues at 1 ohm, frankly it was unlistenable on classical music , had plenty of drive thou , i can see someone liking them if they listen to mostly electronic music . As to driving low-z loads all amplifiers sound different when driving loads lower than 8/4 ohm, higher THD levels for sure ...
@OP
What speakers were the NuForce being used on ..? I would try them anyway , there are other factors at play too , one of noise , your system/setup may or maynot be sensitive to it ..
Edits: 02/17/16
Yes, a DR3 can drive 1 ohm bridged...at least I didn't see any smoke coming out of them ;-).
It wasn't just timbral issues that we experienced it was also spatial issues. As you know the Scintillas can throw a very DEEP soundstage...especially when far away from a front wall (in this case more than 3 meters). The H20s sounded pretty flat, both images and soundstage depth...it was really disappointing. I also heard some homebuilt Hypex based amps on Scintillas back in Switzerland and it was also horrible.
I would expect just that, but it is also a question of power vs. SQ, the classD has practically unlimited power if you want it. I would, you wouldn't..
The question is what is the nature of the differences in SQ characteristics between the class A SS classics and the H2O class D's.
Brad, I have a Krell ksa 100, I ran it on my Scinys, It has a good reputation behind it, known as one of Krells best, I'll take the H20 over it in bass and midrange,I also tried a Spinx project 18, sent it back!!.
Al
The Project 18 is an all SS amp (the PJ16 and PJ14 were hybrids)and is not nearly as good as the Project 16. A friend of mine bought an 18 for his Divas and we found it to be a decent SS amp but no more than that...how it would behave at 1 ohm I do not know but it might not be capable enough for such a load.
The Project 16 was an all out assault for a hybrid design. It has 4 power transformers for the output stage and a separate power supply for the tube stage. The power suppply is switchable between 8, 4 and 2 ohms, which i believe means that it changes the voltage and current delivery characteristics depending on what you select (it had a front panel button). They only made a handful of these amps (less than 20).
Another friend had an original KSA100 that he kept out of nostalgia as much as anything and we we try it out on his Scintillas but his LAMM M1.1s were better as was his Musical Fidelity KW750 stereo amp. The best sound we got from his Scintillas was with a tube amp specially designed by Allen Wright of Vacuumstate to drive 1 ohm loads. This was very nice sounding and allowed the best overall development i have heard from those speakers to date...with the possible exception of the PJ16.
I can only tell you what I heard that day in Holland but I can tell you it was unanimous and that the guy who owned the H2Os then promtply sold them.
It would be easier to get to Mars than find a PJ16 ..... Is the PJ16 the best SS /hybrid amp you have ever ( MF amplifiers?) heard , well , since the Lamm is now off your list .. :)
That will drive a Scintilla? Yes. Otherwise, I have heard some others that were quite good as well.
Gryphon ..?
Never tried one out? You?
Yes, very good as is FMA and Spectral ....
Edits: 02/19/16
My own misgivings over the Nuforce 8.5 was at the top end - driving the tweeters. It was not quite right and had a whitish fine grain particularly obvious on triangles vibraphone and cymbals left to ring in the air. Also bothersome on brass instruments.
Is that something you heard on the H2O compared to class A SS?
I don't know the Project Sphinx but for reputation, I like the DR3 (more so the VHC version) allot and had a DR9 for most of a decade. I prefer either of the latter Classe's to the KSA series, but perhaps for the 50.
Satie, To my ears it misses the ambience that the krell has in the top end, the final finishing edge of sound as decay, funny you mentioned triangles , I made a 4channel tape of triangles tings postitioned and marked on wall, the only amps I have that got it right were the H20, and several Carvers. The krell gave me 3 tings back, the Bryston 7bs monos were all in the wrong places. lol .
Al
When you say the Krell gave you 3 tings back, does that mean 3 in the right places or one ting was missing completely? Just curious as it sounds like a good experiment.
I made some recordings of my ex-girlfriend playing Paganini caprices while standing in between my (now gone) Acoustat 1+1 speakers. I set up the microphones and recorded it with my (now gone) TEAC R2R machine. You could easily tell the way she was standing and relative motions when played back through the Acoustats but not so well with other speakers/systems.
My 2+2s circa '03 sounded their best with VTL MB450s:
The Acoustat TNT amps were specifically designed to drive the Model and Spectra's. They sound great doing it. I wouldn't mess with success, but that's me.
Although I've never heard a D driving an Acoustat, one of the criticisms I've read of D is that they can sound sterile. Given the ruthlessly revealing nature of Acoustats relative to what precedes them in the chain, it could potentially be a bad pairing.
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