Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

I'm in! 1.7i's on the way

75.168.196.227

Hello Inmates!
So, after decades of living inside the box it's time for a change.
Delivery should be next week. My abode is only 10 miles from Magnepan and they will be shipped direct from the factory to my door - sweet!
Hopefully my good old (mostly) vintage equipment will be up to the task.
Pic of my current rig is attached. I'll be using the Sansui AU-517 for pre, and the Carver TFM25 for oats (350wpc@4ohms). The Nikko EQ-1's will be employed for the M&K and Paradigm sub tuning/integration - yah i'm old school and need to make the most out of what I have for now.
It's gonna be a gas - I can't wait!

Follow Ups:

RE: I'm in! 1.7i's on the way - Satie 12:50:53 01/19/16 (16)
Congrats.

Work out your placement carefully, you need a good distance to the front wall (behiind the speakers) 5 ft or better is preferable.

If you give us the room dimensions and layout we can give you some suggestions.
- RE: I'm in! 1.7i's on the way - Waso 17:00:07 01/19/16 (0)
  Thanks for checking in Satie.
  Regarding placement, I have an advantage as my son is a degreed professional sound stage engineer who will be helping me with the set up, and his ears are so much better than mine! If we run into a bump in the road I'll give you a holler.
  Delivery is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon and I'm trying not to pee in my pants right now.
  Best Regards,
  Carl
- RE: I'm in! 1.7i's on the way - Norman M 16:58:56 01/19/16 (14)
  Is there an upper limit as to how much space one should leave behind a 1.7i (or other model Maggie) for best results?
  - Kinda sorta - E-Stat 12:30:57 01/21/16 (7)
    Generally speaking, I've found that room modes are minimized by locating the speakers using thirds of each dimension. Empirically, my stats have the smoothest bass at just under that - which works out to be eight some feet in a twenty-six foot long room.
    
    The center of a room is typically bass shy, so you really don't gain anything by going past a third. Or putting your listening chair in the middle.
    - RE: Kinda sorta - pictureguy 11:05:23 01/23/16 (0)
      As it turns out, E, is the 1/3 thing you note is anecdotal. And not good math:
      
      Based on YOUR measures, a better model would be based on PHI.
      
      26*.618= about 16 of which 1/2 is the 8 feet you note.
      
      Phi is 1.618 and 1/phi is .618 which is where I get above calculation.
      
      I suspect you have pretty good ears based on your observations.
      
      I wish I had the room to get my speakers even 5 feet from the front wall.
      Too much is never enough
    - RE: Kinda sorta - rosendds@frontiernet.net 15:28:19 01/22/16 (5)
      I'm thinking about moving my 1.7's in my listening room.I can place the speakers 6' from the rear wall,but that rear wall has a large glass window and a knee wall out about 1 foot from the glass.Would the window make a difference in the reflection or sonics?Thanks,
      
      Dave
      - Hmmm - E-Stat 15:41:54 01/22/16 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Kinda sorta posted by rosendds@frontiernet.net on January 22, 2016 at 15:28:19
        
        What you need behind dipoles is diffraction. Glass, on the other hand, is highly reflective and untreated would likely provide a scattered and confused image.
        
        Can you shutter or drape the window? Or use room treatments directly behind the panels to provide diffraction?
        
        RE: Hmmm - rosendds@frontiernet.net 17:36:30 01/22/16 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by E-Stat on January 22, 2016 at 15:41:54
        
        There are vertical blinds over the windows.Would it help if I had the speakers out more that 6' from the reflective back wall?
        
        RE: Hmmm - E-Stat 17:54:22 01/22/16 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by rosendds@frontiernet.net on January 22, 2016 at 17:36:30
        
        For me, distance to wall is determined by optimum measured bass linearity. Get a Rat Shack SPL meter or smartphone app along with a Stereophile test disc. I would start there.
        
        Then switch to assuring enough diffraction for back wave. There are a number of inexpensive DIY solutions available.
        
        RE: Hmmm - rosendds@frontiernet.net 05:05:31 01/23/16 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by E-Stat on January 22, 2016 at 17:54:22
        
        I will move the sofa to the new proposed listening position and then move the speakers for a test listen.Thanks,
        
        Dave
        
        RE: Hmmm - Satie 22:33:48 01/23/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by rosendds@frontiernet.net on January 23, 2016 at 05:05:31
        
        Experiment with the blinds in 90 degrees 45 degrees if they are hard, and closed if they are fabric covered. No idea what would work best. The vertical blinds should take the glass out of the equation.
        
        If your room allows it (not square, not 1:1.5 and not 1:2 proportions) then try the Limage setup. There are a few threads on the topic.
  - RE: I'm in! 1.7i's on the way - Satie 10:16:30 01/20/16 (0)
    The balance of tone spatial presentation and body changes as you increase distance from the front wall as Barry noted.
    
    Beyond 6 ft the benefit of further distance is much less and beyond 8' there is no discernible benefit. For a Limage style placement the wall loading firms up the body of instruments to balance things out with the greater distance.
  - Yes there is a distance too far - Barry 07:06:26 01/20/16 (3)
    To me anyway. Moving the speakers out from the front wall works like this. Close in, the soundstage is flat, there is less detail the sound is "hashy" and the noise floor is higher. You'll notice this more in comparison, since as you move the speakers away from the front wall, the sound opens up and there is more clarity. The soundstage keeps getting deeper and maybe sounds better still, but beyond a certain point, images get too diffuse and lose body. In my room, this happens at about 6' from the front wall but I'm sure the effect changes with distance depending on the wall and room treatments behind the speakers.Try a recording with a solo singer centrally located between the speakers as that may be easier to hear.
    You may like the effect of a huge soundstage, but considering the trade offs, after awhile, it seems un-natural to me. Also, this effect may be slightly less audible with some solid state equipment than with tubes.
    
    Edits: 01/20/16
    - RE: Yes there is a distance too far - Norman M 14:25:22 01/20/16 (2)
      ".....but beyond a certain point, images get too diffuse and lose body. In my room, this happens at about 6' from the front wall...."
      
      Greater than 6' from the front wall, AND the speakers themselves staying at the same distance to your ears? Asking because as the speakers get closer to one's ears images can also become too diffuse and lose body, regardless of their distance from the front wall. Since in most cases one's listening position/ears then approach upon the back wall, this in itself could color the issue.
      - RE: Yes there is a distance too far - Barry 17:10:54 01/20/16 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yes there is a distance too far posted by Norman M on January 20, 2016 at 14:25:22
        
        Hmmm. I wasn't clear. It's probably not possible to generalize from my setup. Soundstage and imaging depends on the ratio of direct to reflected sound which includes distances as well as speaker toe-in and absorption.
        It is true, that a delay of reflections off the front wall of at least 10mS is desirable. In any room, it helps if speakers are ideally at least 5.9' from the front wall.
        I agree with you that back wall treatment is critical so as not to "color the issue". Placing absorption directly behind the listening seat on the rear wall is essential. That rear wall is 7.9' behind me.
        You're also right that the speakers don't integrate properly if that's what you meant by " as the speakers get closer to one's ears images can also become too diffuse and lose body". I'm a little over 11' away to optimize that for my listening tastes.
        Here's the tricky part. The diffuse sound I encountered by moving my speakers too far out from my front wall is likely due to the nominal toe-in of my speaker placement. I purposely set the speaker toe-in with Room EQ Wizard to achieve a gradual roll-off of high frequencies at my listening chair per the 'B&K house curve'. This set-up images well with tweeters in, sounds more balanced, the speakers totally disappear, and it creates a big soundstage.
        Optimized this way makes moving the speakers further out sound worse. It necessitates some absorption behind the speakers to damp excess reflected sound and improve imaging. Interestingly, the measured frequency response was better without the absorption, but to use a technical term, the sound "sucked".
        There is still a "to far out" from-the-wall distance for speaker placement even considering room treatment but maybe you won't encounter it in the average-size listening room if the speaker is aimed right at you.
        That bottle of wine is now empty.
        
        Edits: 01/20/16
        
        RE: Yes there is a distance too far - Swamis Cat 10:01:39 01/21/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yes there is a distance too far posted by Barry on January 20, 2016 at 17:10:54
        
        My one point five cents...
        
        I have two pairs of Maggies set up in different rooms around my empty nester house -- a pair of 3.7i,s and a thirty year old pair of IIIa's. I LOVE the soundstage and depth of speakers as far away from the front wall as possible. Unfortunately, regardless of the room or which speakers I use, I always find that the speakers lose "dynamic snap" and crispness as I move them out too far. In some rooms, I can extend them out to about 7 feet and still live with the results. In other rooms I find 6-5 feet is actually best considering the tradeoffs.
        
        Every once in a while I get the itch for super soundstage and move them out to 8, 9, 10 or even 11 feet from the FW. The depth is intoxicating, but then I get more and more bothered at how comparatively dead the speakers sound. Then I move them back to 5-7 feet.
        
        Limage doesn't quite work for my various rooms, they are probably too wide or two damped.
        
        Just sharing my experience based upon my preferences for what little it is worth.... If I could get dynamic snap AND distance from the FW, I would do it immediately. I just can't seem to get the Best of both worlds.
  - RE: I'm in! 1.7i's on the way - Waso 17:26:12 01/19/16 (0)
    Norman,
    I do not think there is an "upper limit' per se, rather it is a lower one.
    Magnepan suggests starting out at three feet behind to the front wall.
    There are so many variables with these things, so only your ears can be the true judge.
    Hopefully someone with much more experience than me with these matters will chime in.
    Best Regards,
    Carl
Excellent! - Cory M. 14:09:06 01/17/16 (1)
You are going to love them. The 350 WPC from your Carver will do nicely. Make sure that you give them plenty of room to breathe- the back wave from Maggies is almost as important as the front for achieving natural sound.

I can offer another suggestion- set the lowpass frequency on your sub low , and get it out of the corner, or else it will sound boomy and too much slower than the 1.7's. Congrats on taking the plunge!

Cory
- RE: Excellent! - Waso 14:38:25 01/17/16 (0)
  Thanks for the replys guys!
  10-4 on the sub placement Cory. I do have them both well isolated from the wood floor floating on bicycle inner tubes and that went a long way to tighten them up. Experimenting with positioning, frequency cuts and room acoustics will be fun for sure.
  Best regards,
  Carl
RE: I'm in! 1.7i's on the way - Green Lantern 09:28:05 01/17/16 (1)
Congrats! You won't be disappointed. You'll most likely won't need an eq, in fact in the 16 years I've owned Maggies I've never even used a tone control much less an eq. However YMMV.
- RE: I'm in! 1.7i's on the way - rosendds@frontiernet.net 03:47:48 02/05/16 (0)
  How do you like your 1.7's?

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