Planar Speaker Asylum

Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share your ideas and experiences.

Planar Speaker Asylum

Back to the Planar

100.34.7.46

I owned the Infinity RS1b for 20 years and enjoyed them in a dedicated and acoustically treated 12'x19' room. Five years ago, wanting a change, I moved to box speakers. But I miss the planar sound and would like to try the Magnepan 20.7.
Can I make them work in my room? What say you?

Edits: 08/16/15

Follow Ups:

RE: Back to the Planar - cfraser 16:24:44 08/29/15 (3)
I have a 12'x18' room. I can not make 3.6/7s work decently. They are not alone in the room... If I had dedicated the room strictly to a stereo listening room, then I could see them working OK (at best). 1.6/7s work great.

The issue is the room width. You want the speakers well away from the side walls too. Draw it out: speaker width, minimum ~2' from side walls; look what you get. Don't believe it when people say Maggies work *great* up against the walls, side or back: they don't. Those who say otherewise have no idea what they're not getting.
- RE: Back to the Planar - Satie 21:31:13 08/29/15 (2)
  You can work a mid sidewall location so long as you have ample distance to the front wall (behind the speaker) 40%to half the room, you keep tweeters in and you do not apply toe in (speaker is perpendicular to the sidewall). Listening position would be at the end of the room about 2 ft from the back wall. It does not work in square rooms and 1.5 and 2 Length to Width ratio rooms - such as your 12X18 room.
  
  Otherwise, if toe in is used then you need some distance from the sidewalls as well. At least 3 ft for a tweeter out position.
  
  I and a few others have tried every conceivable location in a variety of rooms and for those rooms with the right geometry the sidewall position is often best.
  - 3.6 vs RS1B - russ69 22:25:43 08/29/15 (1)
    Lindborg says: "You said that Your friend spent 10s of thousands of dollars so make the Infinity RS1b to sound like the MG3.6."
    
    I never said that. You can re-read my post if you are confused about what I said. This person was not a friend, he was my brother. He had spent quite a few years getting the 3.6s the way he wanted them to sound. Amps, pre-amps and cabling were changed often and with little regard for budget. They were very good when he had finished. He was also in a large dedicated music room and was free to play with the system as he wished.
    You just can't changeover a system like the Infinity and think it's going to be perfect right off the bat. It wasn't and he had advanced the 3.6s to sound their best. So like I said it took him some time to optimize the RS1Bs. You can untwist your panties now.
    - RE: 3.6 vs RS1B - Satie 02:42:37 08/30/15 (0)
      I think you wanted to post this reply after this post
      
      http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/21/217926.html
RE: Back to the Planar - pictureguy 00:01:07 08/18/15 (2)
Ceiling height matters. As would the ratio of height to length or width.

An 8 foot ceiling means the width is 1.5 times height. Not ideal.
A 10 foot ceiling is maybe better.

I suspect the 20 series is a tight fit in this room given you generally don't want to sit UP against the wall and the panels need maybe 3' MINIMUM to 5' which is nice, behind them to the front wall.
Side spacing is important, too.

If you want a true ribbon, maybe the 3 series would be a good investment. The 3.6 is WAY down in price and available. That may work.

All that being said, some of the non-traditional setup options may help. Satie has already chimed in.

Too much is never enough
- RE: Back to the Planar - CraigS720 07:20:03 08/18/15 (1)
  Unfortunately the ceiling height is 7.5'. When building the room for audio, the ceiling height was the the given, so using room mode calculators I came up with the 19X12 length/width to minimize the room modes. With bass traps, I have been largely successful.
  
  With the 20.7 reaching 6.5' it literally becomes a floor to ceiling affair :-). I was told the Infinity RS1b did not radiate up to the ceiling to out to the sides much as does a box speaker. I had to completely change the placement of the acoustical material when I made the switch. I don't know if that is true with the Magneplanars.
  
  All of my speakers have been five feet out into the room and , it being a dedicated room, it hasn't been a problem.
  - RE: Back to the Planar - pictureguy 10:45:08 08/18/15 (0)
    Yes, I see where you started with PHI as the ratio.
    Too much is never enough
Is it a closed or open room - audiozorro 14:24:23 08/17/15 (1)
Is the room a 12'x19' box with a door you can shut or is it a 12'x19' room adjoining other open spaces? If your room is open, I would say yes. If it is a closed space I would opt for a smaller Maggie.
- RE: Is it a closed or open room - CraigS720 07:21:13 08/18/15 (0)
  The room is closed. Oh, how I envy those of you with those 26 X 16 X10 rooms!!!!!!!!
RE: Back to the Planar - CraigS720 12:29:44 08/17/15 (10)
Thank you all for your replies. What I gather so far, is that the consensus is I would be better off with 3.7i given the room size, but a couple of you think the 20.7 would work. As far as room treatments, I currently have GIK Acoustics bass traps in all four corners. and GIK diffusors front and rear and a judicious amount of GIK absorption around the room and on the ceiling. I could move the material around to places that would be more amenable to dealing with any of the acoustic issues I might find.

I also have two JL Audio Fathom 112 subwoofer which help ameliorate bass modes in the room.

The reason I ask about the 20.7 because from what I gather it is not just a larger 3.7i, but a better speaker as well. I was told by virtually everyone that the Infinity RS1B were too big for my room and wouldn't work. I had them five feet into the room and to my ears, they were fantastic. Hence the 20 years!!!!

I am new to Maggies and I am unfamiliar with the HK/Limage setup. I did a search and turned up lots of discussions about it but haven't yet found the technique. I'll keep at it.

Again, thank you all. I welcome and value your input.

Best,

Craig
- RE: Back to the Planar - Desafinado 21:53:47 08/17/15 (0)
  Hi Craig:
  
  As someone who had his Tympani IVa in a 14 X 20 room-which would be considered too small by most-I suggest you try the MG 20 series. If you do not, no matter how great the 3.7's sound, you will always wonder "What if?"
  
  In my case I was enjoying my 3.7s as they were breaking in when 2 sets of Tympani's came up for sale. I knew I had to give them a chance, rationalizing if they were overwhelming in my room I could at least resell them for a minimal loss.
  Now with a move to a new home I am fortunate to have a 17 X 24+ space for them.
  
  My suggestion would be to buy a pair of MG 20s or 20.1s. If you are satisfied you can move up to the 20.7 when you choose. If not you can recoup most of your cost and try the MG 3.7i.
- RE: Back to the Planar - Satie 20:17:57 08/17/15 (5)
  There is a fairly long thread where Mark Man's speakers were setup in the Limage placement and then was fine tuned.
  http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=205731
  
  Do a search for threads on the MUG with Limage and look at the threads where the term shows up many times.
  
  Another discussion
  http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=215733
  
  One with pics
  http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=214733
  - http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=211003 (Open in New Window)
  - I really don't care what all these inmates say behind your back... - Mark Man 08:35:15 08/18/15 (3)
    I still think you are a good dude and Aces in my book... ;)
    
    Hope all is well in your world and you are happy and healthy...
    take care
    Mark
    - RE: I really don't care what all these inmates say behind your back... - Satie 12:09:43 08/18/15 (2)
      If you know particular criticisms people are not willing to face me with, then I would appreciate knowing what they are.
      
      I would want to be a better poster. And I don't mind being flamed. I make endless errors and go along many a dead end as I pursue this hobby and try to both help others and learn. I overshare my thinking at non-conclusive (and often wrong) points of its development and don't mind being called on it. It is a way to learn.
      - Sadie...total joke...I was pulling your nose a little... - Mark Man 12:15:21 08/18/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I really don't care what all these inmates say behind your back... posted by Satie on August 18, 2015 at 12:09:43
        
        I think I can speak for most of us here...you are one of the many great people who are true assets to this board...I consider you a friend and have only good things to say about you...
        
        You might have missed my little Wink symbol...
        
        You are a true gem and I am totally sorry if I indicated anything otherwise...
        thanks
        Mark
        
        RE: Sadie...total joke...I was pulling your nose a little... - Satie 13:12:51 08/18/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sadie...total joke...I was pulling your nose a little... posted by Mark Man on August 18, 2015 at 12:15:21
        
        Thanks but I really don't know where to stop.
        
        I didn't notice your winkie, but even if I did I may still have responded that way.
  - RE: Back to the Planar - CraigS720 07:31:15 08/18/15 (0)
    Excellent! Thank you! I have some homework to do.
- HK/Limage explained...Sadie is our in house expert on this set-up - Mark Man 17:58:09 08/17/15 (2)
  Ok...These are 3.7i's in an HK/Limage set-up, (see attached link), My room is 12'-8" wide X 19'-8"'Long X 8'HT...the speakers are 8'-9" off the front wall, which is 44% into the room...(HK/Limage rules) are 40%-60% off the front wall into the room...My ears are 10'-10" from the center line of the speakers...I can move up 1ft or back 1ft with little or no difference. The sweet spot is 3 people wide...which is great...
  
  Tweeters in with the out side edge of the speaker 12.75" off the side walls with NO TOE IN AT ALL...this sounds crazy and looks even crazier...but damn it works amazing well...
  
  The soundstage goes outside the walls and fills the room from listening position to front wall for depth...Dark Side of Moon, clocks and cymbals intro on track 3, I believe...I can walk around in that soundstage and touch every cymbal...freaks out people I demo it for...
  
  Imaging is pinpoint, rock solid and 3 dimensional...front and back and left and right... Center image is perfect and the speakers transparency makes them disappear...zero beaming at all...
  
  Tone, textures and timbres are all very natural...detail is superb without it being "hyper detail"...aka Magico or Wilson like...
  
  Basically the HK/Limage set-up is room coupling...frequency wise makes the bass bigger and extremely natural with more authority...my room goes down to 35khz...I did get rid of the subs you see in the picture...could not get them to blend and I currently feel I do not need them...
  
  The speaker stands in the picture are after market from MYE Audio...most of us here feel they are a necessity...better focus, detail and much much better bass...
  
  NOW...I would love to have the 20.7's...they are a better speaker, no doubt about it...I do not know if they would work in my current room...
  
  I did drag my 3.7i's to a friends house who has a MUCH smaller room...10'X12'x7.5ht...we could not sit far enough away from the speaker for that big Maggie sound wave to develop...everything was congested and lacked any type of coherence...(one of the most impressive things about the 3.7i's, it sounds like a single driver...amazing coherence)...
  
  My $.02 if you have a local dealer and are serious...ask him if you can demo both...most good dealers will even come and help you set them up...
  
  The other thing I would do is call Magnepan directly and ask to talk to Wendell...they do have an email address on their website any more...go figure, they are that old school, they prefer phone calls...he will NOT try to over sell you at all...I have been to the factory on a few occasions and they really are good people...
  
  Lots of great guys on this Planar board with much more knowledge than I and I have learned so much. They are always willing to help, no matter what your level is...slim to no flames, with great shared experiences of what works for them in their rooms...
  
  Welcome and looking forward to where your speaker quest takes you...please keep us posted...
  
  Doug S. really likes the King Sound III's, stats...I have still yet to hear them, but he prefers those over the 20.7's...(even though he has never did a side by side only muscle memory between his ears)...I am giving Doug a little crap here...all in good fun...
  Take care
  Good luck
  Thanks
  Mark
  - HK/Limage explained (Open in New Window)
  - RE: HK/Limage explained...Sadie is our in house expert on this set-up - CraigS720 07:30:26 08/18/15 (1)
    Thank you!!!! Those pictures are excellent for two reasons. One, I get to see the technique, but also, since the room is the same size as mine I get to imagine how really massive the 20.7 would be in that setting. There is no video in my room, just dedicated to audio. I have a separate home theater. The optics of large speakers in the room aren't important to me, only the music.
    - RE: HK/Limage explained...Sadie is our in house expert on this set-up - Mark Man 08:31:29 08/18/15 (0)
      Craig...
      
      As you can see by the responses...lots of good peeps on this board so willing to help...
      
      Sadie...bless his soul, has posted some real meat and potatoes links, where many of us converted to this set-up...as you know, it is hard to get Audiophiles to agree on the time of day...this HK/Limage set-up is NOT one of those things, but you really need a shoe box shaped room...
      
      Sadie spent some quality time with me offline for the very fine tuning...getting my listening position in-between a foyer and hallway...condo living...this also made a difference in my room...
      
      Correct me if I am wrong but part of the reason for using a line source speaker is to take the floor and ceiling bounce out of the equation...
      
      If you can swing the 20.7's, I would start there...IMHO you may just need to move your listening position back...OR go the less expensive route and a used pair of the 3.6's and work your way up....
      
      Thank you for the kind words...enjoy the journey...the homework is a big part of the fun for me...
      
      Good luck and please keep us posted...
      Thanks again
      Mark
      
      my original journey to HK/Limage (Open in New Window)
RE: Back to the Planar - A.Wayne 12:11:33 08/17/15 (0)
It will work , 5-7 ft off front wall leaves you with 12 ft listening distance to play with , cant see why it wont work, they actually sound better in a small room, than a large room, everyone i have heard in a large room sounds anemic and not worthy.

Regards.

Edits: 08/17/15
I Run the Kingsound King III... - Doug Schroeder 11:50:25 08/17/15 (0)
in my room which is 13' x 23' x 7.5, if that gives you some idea of what is possible. Fantastic sound! If you're willing to do a nearer-field listening setup, it will work.

I'll tell you this for sure; If you go down to a smaller speaker you've handed half the game away and you have to go crazy on gear to attempt to make up for the decision of lower performance because you didn't use the better speaker.

I would definitely not place the speakers on the long wall as it would cause enormous problems for back wave interference. But you will want to do some treatments in the room to make it as accommodating as possible. I have sound panels in the corner behind the speakers, along the sides and rear.

The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
RE: Back to the Planar - russ69 11:07:51 08/17/15 (7)
Craig,

My brother ran RS1Bs replacing Magnepan 3.6s. It took him a long time and 10s of thousands of dollars to get the Infinities to surpass his 3.6s. He was a very advanced audiophile and he was working very hard to get the RS1Bs to open up and bloom. In the end he was very pleased with his Infinity set-up.
Magnepan 20s are a big step up from the 3.6s. I think they will do the job. Yes, your room is toward the small size but if you can place the Maggies on the long wall, tweeters in, and pull them out as much as you can, I think you will have a good chance of getting the sound you have been missing.
You don't really need it but the RS1B woofer tower can blend with the Maggies for the very low end (I still own two pairs and I have no plans to get rid of them).
- RE: Back to the Planar - JLindborg 18:44:24 08/29/15 (6)
  Answer to russ69....
  You said that Your friend spent 10s of thousands of dollars so make the Infinity RS1b to sound like the MG3.6.
  Oh boy didn't he spent bad money.
  The RS1b is in whole other league regarding sound reproduction in most of our frequency spectrum to hear.
  The RS1b outclasses the MG3.6 in every way.
  How didn't he come to even hear that, or had he become so familiar to the sound of the MG3.6 that he thought that THAT was the right sound?
  I mean for Christ sake, I have had these side by side!
  I sold the MG3.6 due to lack of dynamics and lack in coherence.
  In any case, I have the RS1b's EMIM membranes changed to ribbons now so the lend-over to the towers at 150Hz is not an issue anymore as the original had.
  In any case... RS1b vs MG3.6? Seriously!?
  
  The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
  
  Edits: 08/29/15
  - RE: Back to the Planar - Satie 21:15:24 08/29/15 (5)
    I don't think that is what he was implying. I think that he was talking about how long and how much investment it took for the guy to fine tune his room and system to match the RS 1b as well and ultimately better than the mg3.6.
    
    He was not referring to there being an advantage to the 3.6.
    
    What did you end up using to substitute for the EMIMs, is it a commercial driver? Are still using the original or rebuilt EMITs?
    - RE: Back to the Planar - JLindborg 03:24:06 08/30/15 (4)
      I see.
      Then I just misinterpreted the text. :)
      
      Regarding the original EMIM's they are very constricted due to them being a membrane design and are supposed to lend over the sound reproduction to the bass towers at 150Hz.
      The system just sound wrong without the right "body" in the sound.
      And this due to the lack of output around 150Hz.
      So I made the decision to replace all 14 of the EMIM membranes with ribbons made by Apogee Acoustics. (They are made specifically for the EMIM).
      Now the RS1b is transformed to a full blood.
      
      Thanks anyway for the correction of my misinterpretation of his post!
      
      The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
      - RE: Back to the Planar - russ69 13:37:39 08/30/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Back to the Planar posted by JLindborg on August 30, 2015 at 03:24:06
        
        Yes, my brother had the Graz ribbons I believe.
        
        RE: Back to the Planar - JLindborg 12:56:20 08/31/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Back to the Planar posted by russ69 on August 30, 2015 at 13:37:39
        
        It's a really good upgrade.
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
      - RE: Back to the Planar - Satie 10:18:57 08/30/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Back to the Planar posted by JLindborg on August 30, 2015 at 03:24:06
        
        So Graz' Apogee from Austalia make those EMIM unit substitutes or did you retrofit the old ones with a rebuild kit from them?
        
        I am assuming you are talking about these:
        http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/oldforum/008160.html
        
        Are they still about $250 each?
        
        RE: Back to the Planar - JLindborg 10:49:56 08/30/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Back to the Planar posted by Satie on August 30, 2015 at 10:18:57
        
        Yes, Graz' Apogee made those ribbon units to replace the membrane unit that is sandwiched between the pole pieces.
        The pole pieces are the original.
        
        The price for ribbons to retrofit is as follows and copied from Apogee Acoustics forum webpage:
        2-5 units = $235USD/unit
        6-9 units = $230/unit
        10 units or more $225/unit
        As of 1st October 2014
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
generally speaking Maggies desire roughly 3' away from the side walls, 3' out from the rear - Green Lantern 08:29:37 08/17/15 (0)
Obviously you can shave that back a bit if you had to; but If you can manage that, you're rounding 3rd base.
I've got the original 20s in a 17'x 18' room but taking the cue from pictureguy's signature line: "Too much is never enough".
I'm looking at my room now and I can't imagine shaving away 5'.
Relatively speaking I once had MG 1.6s in a 10'x8' room and although they played magnificent music, I didn't want to be in the room for very long. But that's just me, everyone has different experiences. Good luck-

Edits: 08/17/15
My room is very similar in size and the 3.7's work great... - Mark Man 07:39:19 08/17/15 (0)
I do not believe the 20.X's would not work in my room...

I also employ the HK/Limage set-up and it really works amazing well in my room...

There are many 3.6's on the used market for $2500 or less, which is a steal for a great speaker and good way to try Planars again without invest too much money...

Just my $.02
Good luck
thanks
Mark
RE: Back to the Planar - Satie 22:09:58 08/16/15 (0)
the 20.1 might be pushing it, But we had someone on the forum long ago who had a Tympani IV or IVa in the split configuration in a room just a foot or two wider IIRC.

On the short wall, However, if this was the same room you had successfully used your RS-1B then the 20.1 might have a chance to work if you can place it in the middle of the room near the sidewalls in a "Limage" setup. But I am guessing you would need bass traps and likely some absorption on the front wall. You will have to push the 20.1 rather close to the sidewalls so will have very strong bass, perhaps more than you can tolerate, that in order to have more than 6 ft spacing.

Arranging on the long wall will leave you rather squeezed on the listening axis but with a bit of treatment on the front and back walls you have a chance to implement a 10' listening distance and 8' spacing. Don't expect to have much more than you and the system remain in the room.

In my 17X20 room I run a T-IV and it requires no shoe horn.

A 3.x model will be a sure fit.
I say... - grantv 21:09:08 08/16/15 (2)
Room is too small IMO. Even 3 series is a push.
Grant V
- RE: I say... - ahendler 21:37:22 08/16/15 (1)
  I have 3.6's in a 15x12 room setup in the Limoge/HK setup. Sounds awesome. The 3.6 or 3.7i would work fine in your room
  Alan
  - I concur. - wazoo 05:59:05 08/17/15 (0)
    I tried a pair of 3.7s in a room that's roughly the same size as yours (quite near field) and they work brilliantly.
    
    Edits: 08/17/15

Post a Followup:

FAQ

Post a Message!

Forgot Password?

Moniker (Username):
Password (Optional):
	Remember my Moniker & Password (What's this?) Eat Me
E-Mail (Optional):
Subject:

Message:	(Posts are subject to Content Rules)

Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:
Optional Image URL:
Upload Image:
E-mail Replies:	Automagically notify you when someone responds.

To view your new posting or follow-up, click on the RELOAD or REFRESH button on your browser.

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

Herbie's Audio Lab