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In Reply to: RE: No Joy in Vegas, T1Ds have a dead panel posted by OldTimer on August 02, 2015 at 11:48:50
Suggest you follow Andy's advice and send the panels in pairs (one from each side) to magnepan for a rewire.
Follow Ups:
I am giving serious thought to sending all 6 panels in to have them checked/rebuilt. They have been in my garage for 10 yrs and it gets to 100 deg F a lot in the summer. Think at least I will take the socks off first and have a look. .. Just wondering bout shipping cost from Vegas and who will actually take them because of the weight.
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Well nothing visual wrong, will have to do some checking with a meter tommorrow..
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Ask Magnepan about having the transport organized from their end. I don't know if they have arrangements with anyone operating in Vegas. but there was no problem with it here in central ohio.
I miss Columbus so much sometimes.......
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Rather nice place to be if you get around easily.
Any idea of how much this might cost? What is the middle panel? Listening to other sounds like mids.
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
I paid about $500 incl shipping for the bass panel rewire on one side (2 panels)..That was some 5 years ago so could be a bit higher these days.
Each side has two bass panels, one is tuned for a low resonance freq and the other is tuned higher up with tuning buttons to provide multiple higher resonance frequencies and is a midbass panel.
I may have misunderstood ,I have 3 panels a side and the middle one that is dead has no "buttons" on it.. This is in response to Satie's post back a bit, my bad for putting it in wrong place.....
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Edits: 08/06/15
That looks like a "deep bass" panel, I think it looks good in this pic, are you sure there is not disconnect in the solder pads or elsewhere? Can you identify a break in the wire anywhere?
Have you measured resistance?
Went up and down wire paths with reading glasses on, saw no sign of break or lifting,, still looking for meter.... I really really don't like moving......
btw I lived on campus for 17 yrs.....
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
These look like my old Tympani IIIA low bass drivers but mine have copper wiring. Tuning is the same too. The drivers used to be glued and riveted, no staples back then! There is a risk of corrosion at the connections of the drivers where the aluminium wires is soldered to the insulated wires. My old Tympani IIIA had this on its midrange drivers (slightly thinner aluminium wires than I-D basses ). How old are your I-D?
From what I have been told, by looking at lack of fuse holder, pre 1975. And alas I took the socks off the other panels and both of the bass panels have wire seperated so back to the factory they to... So once again No Joy in Vegas....
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
If they are that old they will need more than new wiring, new Mylar and wiring is what they need. Sure, it is not very cheap but still worth it.
Talked to them this morning, for a total rebuild of all 6 panels it would cost max of 2000 plus shipping which she estimated to be 100 each. So for 2000 I could have a new set of T1Ds. That is if bout everything needed to be replace, so not bad at all. Question is what can I get for say 2500 now days..... I am thinking I will need the Magtech(?) amp to drive them good when I get them back. So I am looking at say 7500 for new amp/speakers.
All comments welcome at this point....
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
So far as you have shown us, the panels have their mylar intact and you only have some delam and mysterious disconnects.
I don't think they will come close to using the full budget they quoted. You might not even need a rewire on the bass panels. Just repairs of solder joints and re-gluing wires. How are the tweeters doing? do they work at all? did you measure their resistance without the crossover cap in the circuit?
But after 40 years, I think it would be time for new Mylar and rewiring. You get "all new" Tympanis for about $2000! I wish we could do that in Europe.
I see what you are saying but I think part of his attraction to it is that he already had it and didn't need to pay much (I am sure he was hoping for nothing out of pocket) - I guess if they were selling a T 1D today it would cost well north of 10 grand. So yes, a bargain. But still a step behind current tech.
So yes, a bargain. But still a step behind current tech.Do you mean the current line of speakers? Which sounds better? Depends on taste? I know I switched to the T1Ds due to the way a piano sounds.....
How do they sound say against a pair of used 3.6's?
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Edits: 08/17/15
I would also like to throw out here that the room is approx 20 by 25ft.
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
I think I know what you mean. So you would want a 1st order XO and an equidistant arc arrangement on a T-1D or a modified T IV/IVa or an MG 20.7. I listen to a lot of piano and the move from high order XO to 1st order made a big difference in the rendering of piano.
So I don't think you could do better even for the extreme case of the total repair.of the T-1D. and what you are missing would be the ribbon tweeter, which you could add on with an add on ribbon supertweeter.
The 20.7 even used is going to cost so much more so I would understand your sticking with the T-1D I don't really see a better option than getting it fixed.
The other alternative is a large Apogee which you will either have to buy rebuilt or have it rebuilt yourself. So a $6-10k project.
I wonder how much it would cost for Magnepan to restore a Tympani IVa. If it is not be considerably more than restoring a 1D, I'd be tempted to find a beat-up IVa, which might be bought on the cheap and while I'm at it have it restored. (It never bothers me to spend other people's money.)
I don't think that is enough, the T IVA crossover would need to be modified in order to give the same kind of performance on piano that I think OT is expecting from his T-1D.
"I don't think that is enough, the T IVA crossover would need to be modified in order to give the same kind of performance on piano that I think OT is expecting from his T-1D."
As for myself, the IV-A and piano recordings, I'll simply quote the final line from a once very popular Billy Joel song: "I love you just the way you are".
Not to say that the T IVa is deficient in portraying piano. It is very much a top performer. Just that conversion to 1st order (and changing the mids to the faster Neo8 drivers contributed to that) did more for piano reproduction.It enhanced timing perception, and both the percussion aspect of piano sound and harmonics - as in room reverberation and longer decay of the soundboard output.
Are you saying that a piano sounds better on the T IVa?
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
It is not that simple. The ribbon tweeter gives the T IVA an edge in detail and resolution. However, timing percussive sounds and dynamics and resolution in upper mids are better in the T-1D at the critical octave about 1khz to 3khz.. Deep bass is better on the T-IVa bass panels, particularly if power is limited.
IF you modify the T IVA to 1st order you may have a bit of a limit on top end power handling, but the speaker becomes killer on piano. I believe you can get the same results with an aftermarket add on ribbon or AMT supertweeter for the T-1D you can match that performance. .
Thanks, I like classical most of the time, when I listen to "other stuff" it's usually casual when I'm not alone. When I'm in the mood it drives my 14 yr old crazy.... well my wife too....
I am fond of my 12" pressing of Sunset Grill tho....
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
I listen to classical mostly and play jazz between large classical works..
How do the T1D's sound compared to 3.6's or 3.7's?
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
With Norm on this one.
Add an aftermarket ribbon supertweeter to the T 1D and the 3.x models are just toys in comparison.
How much do they cost? Will I have to mess with crossover?
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Generally speaking you add the supertweeter with its own high pass filter but don't alter your speaker's crossover. But you could if you wanted.
There are canned devices and you can simply buy a ribbon tweeter and add it in with your own high pass filter running off the speaker cables. It is more involved but not difficult.
A few options
Cheap AMT
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amt-mini-8-air-motion-transformer-tweeter-8-ohm--275-095
Ribbon tweeter (with horn, which you would probably not want)
http://www.parts-express.com/aurum-cantus-g2-ribbon-tweeter--276-402
Without horn very high performance
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/raal-70-10d-raal-ribbon-tweeter-with-optional-amorphous-core/
Never having lived with the 1D I really can't say too much about it, since I only heard them in showrooms. OTOH I have about 40 years of experience with the T1C and IV-A, and also own a 3.6 (which I refuse to waste any time listening to).
Tympanis have their way of captivating and holding my complete attention, which no speaker that I ever auditioned did. A word of warning however, I found the Tympanis to be addictive; set-up properly I would never settle for anything else. Tear down any walls if you must because (IMO) the 3.6 is but a mockery of them.
LOL Thank you so much Norman,, I have actually been thinking of building a room just for them......
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Welllll let me say I took classical lessons for 13yrs and if I look over my shoulder,, yup my piano is still there..... Kimbal baby grand circa 1968(junior in HS). So from what Satie said I might be better off with the T1D's, and yes to someone back a ways, I'd like to use the Magtech(I think it is). Will try with amp I have now, it's like 500/ch into 4ohms, I don't know what the other is, but I'd imagine a little more powerful than my 1985 Crown.
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Edits: 08/18/15
The Magtech would be an easy choice to drive the T-1D and also not the friendliest one for your pocketbook.
While your Crown at 500 w/ch into 4 ohms might not be enough, It just might be enough for the bass panels alone if you don't listen loudly. Which would allow you to work the tweeter with a higher quality mid power amp in a biamp configuration. A 100W tube or high bias class A/ab amp should do well.
The T-IVa is slightly more expensive to restore. The basses and mids are $250 each, new Mylar and wires. The ribbons are $300 each. Covers are $32 each. Additional work as mentioned earlier.
I think even a restored set of Tympani I-D can find a buyer at this kind of money we are talking about.
Used Tympani IVa are now rather expensive and hard to find, from $1800 and upwards + rebuild by Magnepsn.
I believe there happens to be an active auction for a IV-A on ebay right now:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnepan-Tympani-IVas-stands-crossovers-boxes-ONLY-3-BASS-PANELS-WORK-/221850477854?hash=item33a751a51e
The seller is asking for $1850, but is also accepting "make me an offer".
If I was prepared to invest in and spend $5000 for an amplifier to drive Tympanis, I'd go all the way, (or I wouldn't go at all). And understood, we all have other and different financial obligations.
I"m right near valle verde and horizon ridge,changed the internal wiring to occ copper and replaced all the capacitors,bypass the fuses and ran the internal wire to outside of the terminal connections for better sonics.replaced the connecting panel wires with occ copper for connecting all the panels.internal wire change was huge improvement in sound as was the running the wire to outside of the terminals ans wrapping them around the screw terminals.
sorry to hear your 1d's need repair,I did mine back in the late 90's when I was in chicago.I have been in henderson nv since 2000 and they still sound excellent,of course I have done quite a bit of improvement's to them and you are welcome to come over and hear them.I use all tube equipement to drive them and a subwoffer system unlike anything on the market. sincerely nick.P.S. don't give up on them they are worth the repair!!!
I am deciding what to do. Got estimate from them on what max cost would be if they had to replace/rebuild everything. Where in henderson? I'm close to warm springs and eastern. I'm also old and retired ...
What kind of mods have you done? I have no idea of what can be done, I have been out of audio(well good audio) for a while. I still have not got my table to shop to see what kind of shape it is in. Do you know some good audio shops? I only know of one here, and it was recommended by someone in the asylum to look at the turntable, I just have not had the time as granddaughter was here for 3 weeks.
btw thanks for the offer to listen......
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
I lived by campus in grad school - used to go to Progressive audio and Stereolab pretty routinely for lunch and if I could get out early..
By chance do you rem the Kipsch cartriages for turntables? I have an old JVC direct drive with a magnapan arm and a Ruby cartriage( <- doesn't look right). Course those shops were there for quite a while..
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Never got to see those Klipsch carts. If your Ruby cart was worthwhile in its day you can get it retipped at soundsmith with a ruby cantilever and line contact stylus for about $250. The bigger JVC DDs were very good TTs.
btw the white spot in middle of panel was just dust. Can see no problems at all with wires.
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Last year, I got a qoute from Magnepan.Rebuilding Tympany drivers are $250.00 each (bass or tweeter) and a couple of hours labor to install in the frames ($49.00 and hour) and fabric ($31.50 per new fabric sock if wanted) and testing.
Do not forget, shipping two ways will not be cheap!
You can also buy re-wiring kits and do it yourself. $50 including 4 spools of wire and the glue.
You can also remove the drivers from the panels, crate them and send them that way to Minnesota. Not sure if your drivers are glued and riveted to the panels as my Tympanis from 1975 were, a bit more work then. Nowdays the use the infamous stapples...
Edits: 08/03/15
Suggestions for shipping? I've not shipped anything in years..... Any idea on cost of shipping?
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Well, 'what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas'! (Sorry, I just couldn't resist and harbor no ill feelings whatsoever, in fact been there many times staying at the Wynn.)
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