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In Reply to: RE: Revealation, sort of off topic. posted by DrChaos on July 24, 2015 at 11:52:49
Depends on the expectations you have and what you listen to as reference.
The big deal about vinyl is believability of the sound of the acoustic instruments and voices. I do have pressings where there is no compression and no mono bass mixing which are recorded about 6-8db lower in the mids than most classical LPs and have a full blown bass and great dynamic range. But those require virgin vinyl to prevent the fine grained hiss that eats up the bottom 10db of dynamic range. During the LP era the US pressings were not on virgin material and suffer as a result and can't be mastered the way some of these European and Japanese pressings were. .
For people who are used to CD and have trouble differentiating pops clicks crackle and noise from the instruments and voices then LP listening will always be accompanied by distractions.
The vast majority of speakers amps and preamps will obfuscate the major lead of LP in the midrange. - all but a handful of the thread and tiny motor players can actually reproduce the dynamic capacity of the medium. Only high torque players (some DDs and idler drive) can do that, and without serious effort to damp them those are noisy. My old Rega planar 3 visibly slowed down on loud passages and so did my much heftier Oracle Delphi and Alexandria. I ended up dumping those in favor of a modified Technics 1600/II which I had rebuilt. It is slightly noisier and lost me a slight bit of detail, but increased dynamic range and bass slam and extension to a great extent.
Unfortunately, much of the analog fandom like the accentuation of fine detail and quiet that the thread drive players achieve by compressing the top end of the available dynamics on the LP. I would rather get all of the music and tolerate the extra noise.
I don't count sins of addition as any worse than sins of omission. So when the "skin" of the music disappears in part (DSD) or in its whole (mp3) leaving only the frame and struts then I don't readily identify the instruments in a large tutti, while I can readily tell them apart in even mediocre vinyl pressings. DSD is also much better in localization (imaging) than CD is and vinyl does better than either in this regard.
But if you expect clean and quiet and uncompressed sound then only high bit digital will give you that routinely without losing the fine transients entirely. If you can tolerate a bit of noise and clicks then low torque LP will give you quiet and details but will compress the loud passages and bass. If you can tolerate more noise then a well damped high torque LP will provide you with both full dynamics and good bass along with a bit of extra noise, but fine transient detail will be retained. With that you will get a more believable presentation of acoustic instruments.
Follow Ups:
I use a Denon DP55-K (direct drive) with a Magnepan Unitrac I arm and Dynavector 17D-Mk2 and I get no noise or speed change. The Denon is noticeably quieter than my Linn Sondek (also with a Unitrac and the same cartridge). I believe the Denon has fairly high torque but I have no idea about the damping - it does have a very rigid suspension unlike the super springy Linn.
The noise reference is actually directed more at the Lencos. The Technics didn't require much to turn the noise down even lower than the Alexandria, which is a fairly quiet belt drive. The Linn is desirable for how the noise that it does make complements most music. I don't think anyone claims the Linn is particularly quiet. I am talking about the quieter heavy platter belt drive tables like the Volvere or Forsell etc..
The DP55 is a high torque table - scaled down from a broadcast table just like the classic DD technics Sony pioneer JVC Kenwood/trio and sansui tables.
Or you were delusional.I spun many a disk on my Planar 2 through the years and never once saw it visibly slow. (Strobe disk attached to a center clamp.)
The belt needs to be changed occasionally and the motor pulley cleaned as well. I'm sure that was your issue.Dave.
Edits: 07/24/15 07/24/15
What were you using for the cart? I used a Sure micro ridge V15 and changed the belt to make sure it was not the issue.
I was playing the Rachmaninoff 3rd PC with Horowitz and this was at the loud portion near the end of the 1st movement.
I used at V15V-MR and a test record with some worst-case groove modulations.
The problem with those Rega's is the belt slips on the pulley at turn on/off and stretches/wears it fairly quickly. The pulley needs cleaning occasionally as well.
The belt only makes contact with 1/4 of the pulley circumference, so if the belt is marginal and/or the pulley dirty you get slippage. This is most likely what you were experiencing. A simple five-minute cleaning and new belt would have solved your issue.
It's a round cross-section belt in a V-groove so the contact area is minimal.
If you know anybody who wants a Rega Planar 2 with no arm let me know.
Dave.
I remember the Rega pulley and how hard it could sometimes be to get the "belt" to stay both in the pulley detent and the subplatter channel. But I don't think I was having that problem.
The very loud passages were followed by wow in their reverberant trails, which I also had with the Oracle tables though not to the same extent. After hearing the twang in the Rega after loud passages I started noticing it during the loud passages and after loud whacks on drums and piano poundings. Years later I noticed it on the Oracle table too. It was at a lower level and was a substantial improvement over the Rega but was still there and became more obvious over time.
I had always used clamps on the turntables so I am fairly certain that it was never a matter of slippage. Also this did not occur on the Lenco I had before and I didn't have a clamp for it, I just used a weight occasionally..
Some clamps won't work effectively with those Rega tables since the center post is not securely attached and could rotate relative to the platter and/or pull through the hole in the glass. A weight and/or a "sticky" mat would be the only alternative to prevent slipping between vinyl and glass. My setup was superior in that I used a clamping/weight scheme that didn't exert any upward force on the center post.
Regardless, the belt slipping issue is a separate one.
Dave.
The clamp I used on the Rega is similar to the KAB clamp I use on the Technics. The Delphi and Alexandria have threaded spindles for the screw on clamp and sticky mats. The Oracles also have a wide belt with lots of contact area on the subplatter. One of the reasons I got the Oracle in the first place - to avoid the "twang" issues I had with the Rega on loud transients and loud passages.
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