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In Reply to: RE: Too Much Toe-In! posted by Bigjimsguitars on July 05, 2015 at 10:11:41
Heads vs. shoulders (vs. ears)? aim them at your ears. Depending on the relative sizes of one's head vs. their shoulders, there could be a significant amount of overlap, (not even bringing up the left vs. right scenario). Now just wait a minute, last time I noticed I haven't got both left and right heads. :-)
Follow Ups:
Norman:
Aiming them at my ears is still too much Toe-In. Effectively what you get with too much Toe-In is smearing of the centerstage, as well as the width of the soundstage overall. A lot depends on how far you sit away from them as well that determines the set up,
This stuff is pretty obvious after the trial and errors. The problem is, Magnepan speakers sound good even when set up incorrectly, sound blissful when set up right!
Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Magnepan 2.5R's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's
MaggieMate X/O's from subs to
2.5R's
Perhaps the characteristics of a given listening room enter into any consideration. Would the optimal amount of toe-in for a given Maggie be the same in a relatively 'live' vs. a 'dead' room? I don't presume to know the answer, however in my case I sense getting the best results by aiming the Left and Right T/M panels of a Tympani IV-A towards my corresponding ears. Should I make drastic changes in my seating distance to the speakers, I might then have to make adjustments in the toe-in. I think my preference lies in adjusting my speakers sound as if they were some giant pair of headphones. Doesn't that max out the apparent separation between channels?
Funny thing, the center of the soundstage actually became cleaner and the separation disappeared into a proper soundstage. Absolutely differences between a lively and dead room. In my case, a lively room which was calmed by ficus trees behind the panels and front walls to diffuse the 1st wave reflection. Doing this makes my humble sized room sound very spacious.
Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Magnepan 2.5R's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's
MaggieMate X/O's from subs to
2.5R's
Leaving out many of the usual considerations of speaker placement and toe-in, there might be a little more to it than that. Of course it's an entirely different experience but during headphone listening, during which there's obviously complete separation, center fill can be pretty clean. So some of it at least can be in a 'listener's head'. I attempt placing my Tympani IV-A T/M panels to also yield maximum separation and the experience produced in many ways resembles listening to a giant pair of headphones and the center fill is also clean. I do aim the Left T/M panel to direct sound to my Left ear, etc. An interesting side note to this is that I'm able to insert a Carver C9 Hologram into the signal chain whose purpose is to cancel out Left Channel sound which arrives in the left ear (and similarly for the right ear. As is well known, when speakers are optimally placed and their distances to the listener's ears carefully measured the soundstage becomes enormous, not only does it extend beyond the edges of many speakers, some claim that it envelops them, extending around the back of their heads.
You can loop up the thread in the Planar Asylum: "Help Bob Carver is planning to steal our Maggies!" (in which 'Josh358' wrote it's (the C-9s), effect is like being a horse and having your blinders removed).
Interesting you mention this. one of the settings of my AVR includes a mode similar to Carver's SHG. On some recordings the evvect is phominal - in many recordings it becomes obvious the producers/engineers of the recording added their own "imaging" effects and the playback of the result is way overdone - almost like playing with your left and right speakers out of phase.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
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