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this seems very similar to what VenHaus describes at his website thanks for the tip

23.121.124.120

PhilJ

In Reply to: RE: If you are interested in playing around .... posted by andyr on June 20, 2015 at 01:42:46

not when or if I will go this route but if I get some spare time I will and report back

best

Phil

Follow Ups:

RE: this seems very similar to what VenHaus describes at his website thanks for the tip - Davey 07:32:44 06/20/15 (20)
Andy is spot on with his comments.
Cables are such a horrible part of the "high-end" audio industry that it irritates me to no end. Way too much money being spent that could/should be spent elsewhere. Cables are the high-profit center of most audio dealerships/salons. Very sad.
Dave.

Edits: 06/20/15
- Agree with this! - Audiophilander 15:19:57 06/20/15 (14)
  The high end audio industry is home to both innovation and abuse. It's where most of the wildly unrealistic claims about cables, interconnects and unproven accessaries ends up. To borrow from Jeff Foxworthy, you know you're an audio gear-head if your high-end speaker wire cost more than your double-wide.
  In the crazy world of megabuck audio, this isn't a joke that can be easily laughed off. But there's a simple way to avoid getting caught up in the competition for dollars and still have fun experimenting with tweaks, cables and after market accessories that really do have merit.
  The approach I'd take is shooting for a 1:10 ratio with each add on accessory, speaker cost divided by ten. That seems pretty reasonable to my way of thinking. By establishing a ballpark budget it's easier to keep things in perspective and have more available cash for better tubes or other gear that can also make a difference in the audio chain. My 2 cents; as always, other's mileage may vary.
  Cheers,
  AuPh
  PS: I've included an image of my JIB cables above. They got the job done for me and didn't break the bank. Sorry, not the best photo.
  
  Edits: 06/21/15 06/23/15
  - RE: Agree with this! - Davey 06:01:30 06/22/15 (13)
    That doesn't seem reasonable to my way of thinking. :) To attach an arbitrary ratio to cable/speaker cost is just silly. But, if you are bound and determined to follow some sort of rule, I suggest modifying your ratio to 1:100. :)
    
    Dave.
    - The arbitrary ratio is a voodoo downsizer. - Audiophilander 23:21:53 06/22/15 (10)
      Of course 1:100 might work just fine Dave, but you can't get thick, beefy speaker cables at that price-point. What if you need cables that stand out like an anaconda on steroids to compensate for poor eyesight in a dark listening room? ;^>
      I know, it probably looks like I've been drinking the Kool Aid in snake oil advertising, but someone has to be a ratio horn-blower. :0)
      In theory, well insulated thicker gauge cables should provide better noise suppression with less resistance that results in cleaner signal amplification, but what's true in one listening environment may not work the same way in another. That's why experimenting with different types of cable and interconnects is usually a good idea.
      JIB cables are well constructed & not ridiculously priced, but that doesn't mean cheaper wire wouldn't produce satisfying results. One big plus from my POV is that these were extremely easy to hook-up (they come with interchangeable gold plated spade & banana plugs). FTR, they're a thing of beauty. My 2 cents, adjusted for inflation & hyperbolic embellishment. 8~)
      Cheers,
      AuPh
      
      Edits: 06/23/15
      - RE: The arbitrary ratio is a voodoo downsizer. - Davey 05:49:50 06/23/15 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The arbitrary ratio is a voodoo downsizer. posted by Audiophilander on June 22, 2015 at 23:21:53
        
        "Of course 1:100 might work just fine Dave, but you can't get thick, beefy speaker cables at that price-point."
        You certainly can. This was already mentioned:
        http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2789&seq=1&format=2
        30 cents/foot is a good number. Anybody spending more than that on speaker cable is simply wasting money.
        Dave.
        http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id= (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 06/23/15
        
        But Dave, - Audiophilander 11:28:28 06/23/15 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The arbitrary ratio is a voodoo downsizer. posted by Davey on June 23, 2015 at 05:49:50
        
        ...those ain't thick. See through cord may be OK for Walmart lamps, but even Victorian lighting had braided cords with insulation. Is clear vinyl wrap really an upgrade?
        Where's the beef, chief? No insulation at all from what I can see. Maybe I'm missin' somethin'. Is sound clarity about see through sheathing? ;0)
        Buying wire by the roll is sorta like buying a suit off the rack. Sure, it may do the job, but will it look as good or fit like tailored?
        Teasing aside (but within easy reach), I've decided to post a link to cables close to what I bought. These are similar in price-point to my JIB cables and infinitely more muscular (see image above) than cord on a roll. :~) Feel free to criticize. I'm a big boy, I can take it.
        JIB cables (worth a look at least)... (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 06/23/15 06/23/15
        
        RE: But Dave, - Davey 12:12:19 06/23/15 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: But Dave, posted by Audiophilander on June 23, 2015 at 11:28:28
        
        I suggest to forget everything you thought you knew about cables and start again. :)
        
        Dave.
        
        Do you recommend hypnosis or something more drastic, like Mad Cow? - Audiophilander 16:19:09 06/23/15 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: But Dave, posted by Davey on June 23, 2015 at 12:12:19
        
        ...
        
        Now what was the topic again? ;0)
        
        RE: Do you recommend hypnosis or something more drastic, like Mad Cow? - Davey 18:02:39 06/23/15 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Do you recommend hypnosis or something more drastic, like Mad Cow? posted by Audiophilander on June 23, 2015 at 16:19:09
        
        It was just a suggestion and I realize I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
        I don't mind people who are ignorant, but it's the ones who are ignorant and not willing to learn that are easily separated from their money.
        But, obviously you can spend your money however you see fit.
        
        Cheers,
        
        Dave.
        
        Suggestions are appreciated. - Audiophilander 01:56:07 06/24/15 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Do you recommend hypnosis or something more drastic, like Mad Cow? posted by Davey on June 23, 2015 at 18:02:39
        
        So is a sense of humor. Sorry if I offended you. It was just my way of keeping things light. I wasn't berating your suggestions.
        
        Just so we're clear on one point, I've tried other types of cable including oxygen free 12 gauge speaker wire similar to what you recommended. I kept a roll of it around (originally my Gallo Solos were hooked up with clear sheathed 12 gauge wire before checking out other cable that I preferred after upgrading to Gallo References).
        
        The JIB cable I'm using with my Maggies does sound better to my ears than other cables I've tried, but I won't rule out the placebo effect any more than I'd rule out real world variations in my hearing from the next guy's. I don't consider folks "ignorant" regardless of whether they take my advice, but I suppose everyone's mileage varies. Hey, who knows, maybe my ears are ignorant.
        
        All the best,
        AuPh
        
        RE: Suggestions are appreciated. - Satie 09:24:20 06/25/15 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Suggestions are appreciated. posted by Audiophilander on June 24, 2015 at 01:56:07
        
        Cables are only partially defined by their LCR characteristics as they have structural properties that make a difference as does stranding, and the metal annealing also changes the results without having a measurable effect on L C or R..
        
        Generally I would avoid any stranded cable that is not silver coated. I would also avoid anything with a PVC dielectric. That said, I did try to use these cables for years and built my own cables in various geometries from other wires and nearly anything is better than this. I don't have a problem using those PVC cables for bass but they should be cut down by an inch or so from each end every few years as they oxidize. As far as gauge sizing, get a cable with 10X the cross section required by the power duty calculation
        
        Rely on your ears while keeping in mind that you will make mistakes. Take HP's dictum of the TAS. You can use your hearing if you trained yourself for it with exposure to varied live acoustic music over a period of years. That is the only way you can judge when the recording system and room give you a realistic portrayal or a recorded performance. With processed electronic music there is no standard as an unnatural sounding result at the studio is specifically sought. There is hardly any unamplified pop that is not close miked (think "unplugged" alt rock) so has an entirely artificial acoustic on the recording.
        
        RE: Suggestions are appreciated. - Davey 13:13:09 06/25/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Suggestions are appreciated. posted by Satie on June 25, 2015 at 09:24:20
        
        Different structural properties would/might change the LCR characteristics. But if it doesn't, then there will be no audible change (from the LCR aspect.)
        There is also RFI/EMI to consider and the wires might be susceptible to pickup from outside sources. This is why I qualified my earlier statement with the "nearly completely defined."
        
        I know this is a hard one to swallow, but cables are not rocket science. Rather, in the world of high-end audio they're almost completely marketing. :)
        
        Cheers,
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Suggestions are appreciated. - Satie 14:19:03 06/25/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Suggestions are appreciated. posted by Davey on June 25, 2015 at 13:13:09
        
        While I agree that marketing makes mountains out of molehill issues and some stuff is totally bogus, There is plenty of DIY experience documented on various geometries and material choices where no marketing is involved. Some are pretty explicit about the particular SQ performance aspects they value and where their designs don't do well.
        
        I don't buy speaker cables at all, I build them for my purposes.. In interconnects I let it go and bought JPS Superconductors when the next iteration came out and the old cables were plentiful and at deep discounts on the used market. I have not managed to make as well balanced an interconnect as that on my own but have managed to exceed its performance in particular qualities at the expense of others. Differences are not particularly subtle.
        
        RE: Suggestions are appreciated. - Davey 07:46:55 06/24/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Suggestions are appreciated. posted by Audiophilander on June 24, 2015 at 01:56:07
        
        Speaker wires are (nearly) completely defined by their LCR characteristics. If you're interested in learning and not just posting silly analogies there is plenty of good information on the interweb. However, you won't find it on websites from manufacturers who sell high-dollar speaker wire/cables (like JIB.) :)
        There's good profit in it.....that's why so many people sell cables. :)
        
        However, if you're going to judge everything subjectively, then you're lost. :)
        
        Dave.
    - RE: Agree with this! - Swamis Cat 15:29:47 06/22/15 (1)
      I think 1:100 is probably a very good starting place for speaker cable pricing. After that I would strongly recommend having a friend or significant other swapping cables blind and verifying that the difference is really there and worth the extra. Fun and informative.
      
      I swear I can hear a tiny difference between my big fat expensive Audioquest cables and the spool stuff that the AV guy left behind after installing surround sound in another room. The spool sounds a smidgen better. Maybe. To put it in perspective though, I find a one inch change in toe in on the speakers or one inch change in my DWM relative location is an order of magnitude larger in impact than what I hear from swapping speaker cables.
      
      Others may disagree. By the way, I still prefer the expensive Audioquests or the Transparent Audio cables that I bought when younger, mainly because they look much, much cooler. It's like washing my car -- even if it doesn't drive much faster, it looks a lot better.
      - But just think, by starting with a 1:10 ratio... - Audiophilander 23:51:30 06/22/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Agree with this! posted by Swamis Cat on June 22, 2015 at 15:29:47
        
        ... you could fly Wendell Diller in with his own proprietary mystery wire to hook up your Maggies and tell you how great they sound. ;0)
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        Edits: 06/22/15
- I learned a lot when I replaced Audio Note Lexus with Walmart lampcord and preferred the lampcord in the mids! - PhilJ 12:35:12 06/20/15 (4)
  the lampcord I am talking about is used in the "White Lightening" made by 6 Moons and I am using it now in stead of the Type 4
  
  will comment later
  - Does the mid-range emphasis correlate to Walmart's marketing? - Audiophilander 14:42:50 06/20/15 (1)
    As in falling prices means dropped highs, great mids & unbeatable lows. ;^)
    
    Sorry, that sounded funnier in my head.
    
    Seriously, experimentation is the best way to fine tune individual systems because everything makes a difference (room, speaker cables, gear upstream, interconnects, tubes, etc.) and every system has unpredictable differences. For instance, amplification plays a major role (changing amps, preamps, etc., might've flipped the results or dramatically altered your perception of the sound signature). Individual hearing curves also factor in.
    
    In any case, whatever sounds best to your ears is where you want to end up, regardless the cost.
    
    Cheers,
    AuPh
    - LOL yeah I have been thru the ringer over the years with Kimber, Goertz, AZ AN Nordost etc - PhilJ 15:58:32 06/20/15 (0)
      I am now in the DIY mode now cus well, a penny saved...
      
      ;^)
      
      Phil
  - RE: However, the lampcord will be stranded - try some solid-core! :-)) nt - andyr 13:56:31 06/20/15 (1)
    .
    - solid core it is Andy I will eventually report back my findings... - PhilJ 15:59:31 06/20/15 (0)
      thanks

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