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In Reply to: RE: what quality in a speaker wire work well with Maggies? I am using a ss amp and have SMGa posted by PhilJ on June 18, 2015 at 21:12:49
If you're wanting to experiment, there's wire you can try in both directions cost-wise. Some Maggie owners use zip wire (lamp cord) and are perfectly happy. Others go mega-buck, but I suspect there's a diminishing return and spending more than $1000 for cable seems like overkill. Of course, everyone's mileage varies.
My philosophy is simple, the more noise suppression (insulation) and least resistance (thicker wire gauge) between amplifier and speaker, the better. I chose German manufactured DIL cables with banana connectors and am totally happy. I could certainly spend more, less or try different things, but I'm satisfied with what I'm using.
Cheers,
AuPh
Follow Ups:
there is a slight thinness in the high end and the bass is a bit strong
I mostly wonder what attributes Maggies like, inductance, capacitance and resistance all contribute to the sound (if memory serves me correctly) and it seems Maggies like a special load.
thank you
Phil
Maggies are an EASY load. Very low energy storage / reactance.
Damping factor of the amp doesn't appear to matter much, either, since even fairly low DF tube stuff can sound wonderful.
Just pay attention to the fundamentals and you will have a good start. I use 10ga belden with 2x runs of about 4 feet to each speaker. Each 'way' of the speaker has its OWN amp.
Too much is never enough
I was thinking Maggies liked ribbon wire but that must be electrostatics
I may play around a bit but I am guessing the Type 4 is a good solid choice
best
Phil
The Goertz are some of the best that I have heard:
A speaker cable needs to minimise 'R' and minimise 'L'. ('C' doesn't affect the signal passing down the speaker wires but may cause problems for the amplifier. ;-)) )
You want low 'R' to allow the amplifier to better control the driver; you want low 'L' because inductance acts as a brake on the current passing down the speaker wires.
Here are a couple of cheap options you could try - which IMO will sound just as good as lots of high-priced options, particularly those which use stranded wires:
** A number of Maggie owners use 'anti cable' - ie. magnet wire, which is polyester coated solid-core copper wire, used for winding inductors. I personally would not use any thicker magnet wire than 18g - better 21g - so use as many strands as you think are necessary to get 'R' down to an acceptable level (which depends on the length of your speaker cables). For the normal 10' speaker wires, I would suggest 3x 21g wires going to the '+' speaker terminal and 3 going to the '-' terminal will be fine.
** Cat5 cable is also good, because it is a) 24g and b) solid-core. If you want to get fancy, use Belden 1585a - which has the 8 individual wires in the jacket, teflon-coated (rather than the normal PVC).
Depending on how long your cables are and how tolerant your amp is of 'C', use either:
a) one jacket to each speaker: 2 pairs (4 wires) for '+' and 2 for '-'.
b) one jacket for '+' and one for '-'.
a) is better because L is lower ... but, correspondingly, C is higher (which your amp may not like).
I use b) for long runs - like 50' - to ancillary speakers in other rooms.
Regards,
Andy
not when or if I will go this route but if I get some spare time I will and report back
best
Phil
Andy is spot on with his comments.Cables are such a horrible part of the "high-end" audio industry that it irritates me to no end. Way too much money being spent that could/should be spent elsewhere. Cables are the high-profit center of most audio dealerships/salons. Very sad.
Dave.
Edits: 06/20/15
The high end audio industry is home to both innovation and abuse. It's where most of the wildly unrealistic claims about cables, interconnects and unproven accessaries ends up. To borrow from Jeff Foxworthy, you know you're an audio gear-head if your high-end speaker wire cost more than your double-wide.In the crazy world of megabuck audio, this isn't a joke that can be easily laughed off. But there's a simple way to avoid getting caught up in the competition for dollars and still have fun experimenting with tweaks, cables and after market accessories that really do have merit.
The approach I'd take is shooting for a 1:10 ratio with each add on accessory, speaker cost divided by ten. That seems pretty reasonable to my way of thinking. By establishing a ballpark budget it's easier to keep things in perspective and have more available cash for better tubes or other gear that can also make a difference in the audio chain. My 2 cents; as always, other's mileage may vary.
Cheers,
AuPhPS: I've included an image of my JIB cables above. They got the job done for me and didn't break the bank. Sorry, not the best photo.
Edits: 06/21/15 06/23/15
That doesn't seem reasonable to my way of thinking. :) To attach an arbitrary ratio to cable/speaker cost is just silly. But, if you are bound and determined to follow some sort of rule, I suggest modifying your ratio to 1:100. :)
Dave.
Of course 1:100 might work just fine Dave, but you can't get thick, beefy speaker cables at that price-point. What if you need cables that stand out like an anaconda on steroids to compensate for poor eyesight in a dark listening room? ;^>I know, it probably looks like I've been drinking the Kool Aid in snake oil advertising, but someone has to be a ratio horn-blower. :0)
In theory, well insulated thicker gauge cables should provide better noise suppression with less resistance that results in cleaner signal amplification, but what's true in one listening environment may not work the same way in another. That's why experimenting with different types of cable and interconnects is usually a good idea.
JIB cables are well constructed & not ridiculously priced, but that doesn't mean cheaper wire wouldn't produce satisfying results. One big plus from my POV is that these were extremely easy to hook-up (they come with interchangeable gold plated spade & banana plugs). FTR, they're a thing of beauty. My 2 cents, adjusted for inflation & hyperbolic embellishment. 8~)
Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 06/23/15
"Of course 1:100 might work just fine Dave, but you can't get thick, beefy speaker cables at that price-point."You certainly can. This was already mentioned:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2789&seq=1&format=230 cents/foot is a good number. Anybody spending more than that on speaker cable is simply wasting money.
Dave.
Edits: 06/23/15
...those ain't thick. See through cord may be OK for Walmart lamps, but even Victorian lighting had braided cords with insulation. Is clear vinyl wrap really an upgrade?Where's the beef, chief? No insulation at all from what I can see. Maybe I'm missin' somethin'. Is sound clarity about see through sheathing? ;0)
Buying wire by the roll is sorta like buying a suit off the rack. Sure, it may do the job, but will it look as good or fit like tailored?
Teasing aside (but within easy reach), I've decided to post a link to cables close to what I bought. These are similar in price-point to my JIB cables and infinitely more muscular (see image above) than cord on a roll. :~) Feel free to criticize. I'm a big boy, I can take it.
Edits: 06/23/15 06/23/15
I suggest to forget everything you thought you knew about cables and start again. :)
Dave.
...
Now what was the topic again? ;0)
It was just a suggestion and I realize I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
I don't mind people who are ignorant, but it's the ones who are ignorant and not willing to learn that are easily separated from their money.
But, obviously you can spend your money however you see fit.
Cheers,
Dave.
So is a sense of humor. Sorry if I offended you. It was just my way of keeping things light. I wasn't berating your suggestions.
Just so we're clear on one point, I've tried other types of cable including oxygen free 12 gauge speaker wire similar to what you recommended. I kept a roll of it around (originally my Gallo Solos were hooked up with clear sheathed 12 gauge wire before checking out other cable that I preferred after upgrading to Gallo References).
The JIB cable I'm using with my Maggies does sound better to my ears than other cables I've tried, but I won't rule out the placebo effect any more than I'd rule out real world variations in my hearing from the next guy's. I don't consider folks "ignorant" regardless of whether they take my advice, but I suppose everyone's mileage varies. Hey, who knows, maybe my ears are ignorant.
All the best,
AuPh
Cables are only partially defined by their LCR characteristics as they have structural properties that make a difference as does stranding, and the metal annealing also changes the results without having a measurable effect on L C or R..
Generally I would avoid any stranded cable that is not silver coated. I would also avoid anything with a PVC dielectric. That said, I did try to use these cables for years and built my own cables in various geometries from other wires and nearly anything is better than this. I don't have a problem using those PVC cables for bass but they should be cut down by an inch or so from each end every few years as they oxidize. As far as gauge sizing, get a cable with 10X the cross section required by the power duty calculation
Rely on your ears while keeping in mind that you will make mistakes. Take HP's dictum of the TAS. You can use your hearing if you trained yourself for it with exposure to varied live acoustic music over a period of years. That is the only way you can judge when the recording system and room give you a realistic portrayal or a recorded performance. With processed electronic music there is no standard as an unnatural sounding result at the studio is specifically sought. There is hardly any unamplified pop that is not close miked (think "unplugged" alt rock) so has an entirely artificial acoustic on the recording.
Different structural properties would/might change the LCR characteristics. But if it doesn't, then there will be no audible change (from the LCR aspect.)
There is also RFI/EMI to consider and the wires might be susceptible to pickup from outside sources. This is why I qualified my earlier statement with the "nearly completely defined."
I know this is a hard one to swallow, but cables are not rocket science. Rather, in the world of high-end audio they're almost completely marketing. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
While I agree that marketing makes mountains out of molehill issues and some stuff is totally bogus, There is plenty of DIY experience documented on various geometries and material choices where no marketing is involved. Some are pretty explicit about the particular SQ performance aspects they value and where their designs don't do well.
I don't buy speaker cables at all, I build them for my purposes.. In interconnects I let it go and bought JPS Superconductors when the next iteration came out and the old cables were plentiful and at deep discounts on the used market. I have not managed to make as well balanced an interconnect as that on my own but have managed to exceed its performance in particular qualities at the expense of others. Differences are not particularly subtle.
Speaker wires are (nearly) completely defined by their LCR characteristics. If you're interested in learning and not just posting silly analogies there is plenty of good information on the interweb. However, you won't find it on websites from manufacturers who sell high-dollar speaker wire/cables (like JIB.) :)
There's good profit in it.....that's why so many people sell cables. :)
However, if you're going to judge everything subjectively, then you're lost. :)
Dave.
I think 1:100 is probably a very good starting place for speaker cable pricing. After that I would strongly recommend having a friend or significant other swapping cables blind and verifying that the difference is really there and worth the extra. Fun and informative.
I swear I can hear a tiny difference between my big fat expensive Audioquest cables and the spool stuff that the AV guy left behind after installing surround sound in another room. The spool sounds a smidgen better. Maybe. To put it in perspective though, I find a one inch change in toe in on the speakers or one inch change in my DWM relative location is an order of magnitude larger in impact than what I hear from swapping speaker cables.
Others may disagree. By the way, I still prefer the expensive Audioquests or the Transparent Audio cables that I bought when younger, mainly because they look much, much cooler. It's like washing my car -- even if it doesn't drive much faster, it looks a lot better.
... you could fly Wendell Diller in with his own proprietary mystery wire to hook up your Maggies and tell you how great they sound. ;0)Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 06/22/15
the lampcord I am talking about is used in the "White Lightening" made by 6 Moons and I am using it now in stead of the Type 4
will comment later
As in falling prices means dropped highs, great mids & unbeatable lows. ;^)
Sorry, that sounded funnier in my head.
Seriously, experimentation is the best way to fine tune individual systems because everything makes a difference (room, speaker cables, gear upstream, interconnects, tubes, etc.) and every system has unpredictable differences. For instance, amplification plays a major role (changing amps, preamps, etc., might've flipped the results or dramatically altered your perception of the sound signature). Individual hearing curves also factor in.
In any case, whatever sounds best to your ears is where you want to end up, regardless the cost.
Cheers,
AuPh
I am now in the DIY mode now cus well, a penny saved...
;^)
Phil
.
thanks
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