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Planar Speaker Asylum

RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i.

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In Reply to: RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. posted by Audiophilander on June 08, 2015 at 13:55:46

Needless to say the Four panels of the Tymp IV-A puts any (?) 3.X to shame!
(?)I've not heard a 3.7i, but it can't provide an equal match for the four Tymp IV-A Bass panels. (Regardless of any and all other considerations, just accept it man. My listening room is somewhat similar to yours, 20' X 20' but with the usual 8-9 ft ceilings. Your 3.7i faces even a greater challenge in your much larger listening room having greater total volume.)

And that's indeed the case even if one isn't using the world's greatest amplifiers. (I'm bi-amping a Tymp IV-A using two Bryston 7BST monoblocks for the Bass and a Bryston 4BSST for the T/M. Right now I'm using a Marchand XM44-2 as my CO, other times I use Magnepan's passive XO-1, said to be of advantage because involves the least amount of signal processing. At times I concur with that. Cross-over points and filters are exactly as per instructions in the IV-A user's manual.)

Follow Ups:

RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - Audiophilander 22:35:51 06/08/15 (42)
Your rig is very impressive, and I wouldn't dispute anything you've done to maximize your systems potential. We've just taken different paths to achieve satisfying sound. I'm sure that bi-amping and signal processing adds benefits as well as the quality of amplification, but the role room dimensions play is more complex.
I have no idea what the world's greatest amplifier is as each amp design brings it's own baggage and benefits. Bryston has a great reputation and an excellent warranty (Wendell Diller apparently likes 'em a lot too). Given the difference between the Tympanies and less demanding 3.7i (driven full range) it's hard to say how much difference there might be between bi-amped Bryston 7BST and 4BSST (800 wpc & 500 wpc) and Sanders Magtech (900 wpc) when considered with other variables (room dimension, powered subwoofer, ceiling height, etc.). I certainly don't have the answer, but it's interesting nonetheless.
With careful speaker placement, first class amplification and figuring out the best ways to take advantage of room layout dimensional realism can be achieved. At this point I'm very comfortable with my system. My listening room is lively and the presentation robust. I haven't heard the Tympanies (which I'm sure are awesome to behold) and I don't believe you've heard the 3.7i Maggies with a Magtech amp in a similar setting to mine. We both may be predisposed to certain biases based on what we're familiar with compared to what we've owned before. I'm not saying you're incorrect in your assessments by any means, but my experience has been that it's often easier to criticize in absence of similar experiences.
Cheers,
AuPh

Edits: 06/09/15 06/09/15 06/09/15
- RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - Swamis Cat 11:40:54 06/09/15 (39)
  Just adding to the conversation...
  
  Do not underestimate the value of adding DWMs to a three series. This increases the bass area of the speaker to something slightly larger than a 20.7 (though not tuned to go as low). It also gains the huge advantage of allowing you to tailor and smooth the bass via placement. With DWM's and a dedicated room, bass bumps and dips are a choice, not a necessity.
  
  I substantially prefer the sound of my 3.7i (or of my old IIIa's) with the DWM in most locations (though not all, in a few room locations-- such as 11 feet out Limage -- it becomes too bass rich). It is clearly NOT in any way a sub. It gives the speakers more bass volume giving drums and bass guitar substantially more weight and authority. It works from about 80 hz to 300 hz).
  
  I can't fit a 20 series in my room, and probably couldn't afford a new one anyways. Adding a DWM to my threes gives me all the bass I need above forty hz though (above 25 hz with the bass awesome IIIa's).
  
  YMMV.
  - RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - raya 17:08:46 06/09/15 (38)
    OK.....so now here is a system that appears most of the posters here would not recommend but works extremely well for me as a listener and professional recording engineer.
    
    Highly modded MGIIIa's Audible Illusions 3a and Rogue M120's. This is the best sound I have gotten from my Maggies and bests my 17 year run of various Classe amps. These speakers have to playback all types of music at all volumes. BTW....I also use 2 M&K 150 subs and incorporate an 80hz high pass filter.
    
    Shoot away!!!!!!!
    - With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - Audiophilander 23:23:22 06/09/15 (33)
      ...
      - RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - raya 13:08:42 06/10/15 (32)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by Audiophilander on June 09, 2015 at 23:23:22
        
        Thanks guys!!!!! My purpose was to demonstrate that there are options beyond high watt, SS amps which are worth exploring.....if one likes to experiment or if loaners are available.
        
        BTW, now that I'm a club member what's the secret password and handshake?
        
        RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - Audiophilander 02:47:51 06/11/15 (31)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by raya on June 10, 2015 at 13:08:42
        
        To get into the Sidekick's Lounge all you need to do is hang out with The Tick! Of coarse, he isn't all that dependable, but if you play your cards right and say *spoon* loudly enough to confuse security that should get you into the swankier Superheroes Club where all the badarse heroes gather to tell their tales of heroic exploits.
        FTR, I have 150 wpc mono block tube amps in storage, and a couple of other fine solid state amps that just couldn't produce enough power to make thes babies sing. In the end I went with the Sanders Magtech and have never regretted the decision. Maggies like power. It isn't the only way to drive them, but IMO the Sanders Magtech one of the most reliable amps around.
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        Edits: 06/11/15 06/11/15
        
        RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - Norman M 08:15:28 06/12/15 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by Audiophilander on June 11, 2015 at 02:47:51
        
        While it certainly appears as if the Sanders Magtech Amp is no slouch, the fact that its lifetime warranty only applies to its original owner does cause me some concern. OTOH Bryston's 20 year warranty is transferable to any subsequent owner(s), as long as the product in question was originally purchased from an authorized dealer. The product in question should have a warranty, regardless of its owner. If anyone considers buying a used Magtech, they're on their own.
        
        I understand where your caution comes from, but it's unwarranted. - Audiophilander 00:43:17 06/13/15 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by Norman M on June 12, 2015 at 08:15:28
        
        Sorry, couldn't resist the subject line pun (one of my guilty pleasures). Everything I've stated is accurate based on personal experience, but it's just one man's POV. Indeed, warranties are important, but has that ever stopped anyone from experimenting to better their sound, even at the risk of voiding a warranty, whether it's bi-amping internal crossovers or modifying stock gear? I think it may be in our DNA to a greater or lesser degree, and I have Mye stands on my Maggies and a ModWright tubed OPPO to prove it (LOL)!
        For comparison's sake, I think Roger has a 30 day no questions asked return policy. If you don't think his gear betters what you have, ship it back for a refund with no hard feelings. Apparently few if any have been returned after purchase which speaks well for his products. I'd never claim that Sanders amps are superior to other amps currently being enjoyed in a system I haven't heard. What I will say is that I did lot of research before pulling the trigger on a Magtech Amp (as should anyone considering one of his products) and I have no regrets.
        While I believe in supporting authorized dealers, a lot of very fine gear isn't franchised through local brick & mortar audio specialists. In some cases, you have to buy direct from the manufacturer just to try it out in your system. The risk is the level of support (trust in the reputation of the designer/manufacturer) balanced by whether there's a synergistic benefit to your system. Of course, the rewards of low overhead direct marketing can often be measured in substantial savings too.
        
        Edits: 06/13/15
        
        RE: I understand where your caution comes from, but it's unwarranted. - Norman M 02:06:51 06/13/15 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I understand where your caution comes from, but it's unwarranted. posted by Audiophilander on June 13, 2015 at 00:43:17
        
        We are definitely not on the same page here. Should some situation arise (I need to raise some cash, become deaf or even worse, dead), then I or my estate would have an amp for sale. It would be better if the warantee traveled with the amp, not its owner. My new car warrantee limited in life as though it may be, travels with my car! Any potential seller or buyer would be happier if the unit was under warantee.
        I really don't understand why you jumped to the conclusion that I might be dissatisfied by the amp's performance.
        
        No conclusion jumping was attempted but I may be guilty of trying to raise the bar a bit. - Audiophilander 03:45:57 06/13/15 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I understand where your caution comes from, but it's unwarranted. posted by Norman M on June 13, 2015 at 02:06:51
        
        It was never my intent to leave the impression that you were dissatisfied with your amps, nor that I felt you should be; if you read my comments again I think you'll agree. I have no information about the resale value of Magtech, but it's bound to be pretty robust with a lifetime warranty. However, I'm not trying to convert anyone or encourage folks to buy Roger's amps who are satisfied with what they already own.
        What I've tried to provide is simply my personal experience to help in making a more informed choice. I think it's usually worthwhile to check out some well designed gear that others have discovered and endorsed. The simple truth is that Sanders Amps are worth auditioning. The rest is up to you.
        If you're ever in the Metroplex (Fort Worth) I'd invite you to listen and critique this set-up for yourself. Who knows, you might grow to appreciate my POV, or maybe not, but at least you'd understand where I'm coming from and have a better impression of why I'm happy with my gear in this configuration.
        Sorry about the late night posting. I edited this a couple of times to better articulate my POV.
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        Edits: 06/13/15 06/13/15
        
        RE: No conclusion jumping was attempted but I may be guilty of trying to raise the bar a bit. - Norman M 08:24:43 06/13/15 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: No conclusion jumping was attempted but I may be guilty of trying to raise the bar a bit. posted by Audiophilander on June 13, 2015 at 03:45:57
        
        As my senior brain understands it the lifetime warranty only applies to the original owner. If so that's the cause of my concern. My buying one of 'Roger's' amps doesn't (even) presently enter the picture. I contrasted 'Roger's' warranty with Bryston's 20 year warranty which goes with the amp, not being confined to it's original owner. One of our fellow inmate's recently surrendered his listening room and expressed (right here) the possibility of his selling his amp. If that came to pass AND if I were a potential buyer, it is likely that I'd offer more money for it if it had a lifetime warranty as insurance covering the cost mechanical breakdown, in the event of failure. (Maybe his amp even has a lifetime warranty covering the cost of its repair, I don't even know.)
        
        Roger might consider matching Bryston by offering a 20 year warranty covering the cost of its repair (to any of its eventual owners), if and even when it became necessary.
        
        Please kindly correct me if I'm wrong in thinking a secondary owner of his amp must bear the cost of repairing it even if it failed after a couple of months of its manufacture date.
        
        You write:
        "I have no information about the resale value of Magtech, but it's bound to be pretty solid with a lifetime warranty."
        
        (Good for its original owner, possibly BAD for any subsequent owner.)
        
        I ask, lifetime warranty only to its original owner and none to any subsequent owner? If so in principle, BAD.
        
        I understand your perspective... - Mark Man 09:15:06 06/13/15 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: No conclusion jumping was attempted but I may be guilty of trying to raise the bar a bit. posted by Norman M on June 13, 2015 at 08:24:43
        
        Being happy with your Bryston's sonically and resale wise with warrantee...
        
        The used Market on the Magtech's is $4000-$3500... I have not seen anything below $3500...Mine was $3700 shipped...When they do come up on Agon, they do not last more than a couple of days in that price range...The ones that are priced over $4000 seem to hang around more...
        
        For my gear, warrantee has never really been a priority for purchase or resale...I am an eternal optimist thou...
        
        Just the lifetime warrantee alone gives me confidence in the product, whether it is transferable or not...he is willing to stand behind his designs...
        
        Similar to the Brystons, the Magtech is a good match with any Maggies...but hey, that is why they make Fords and Chevys...we all have our own priorities to what we want out of a product...
        
        Thanks
        Mark
        
        RE: I understand your perspective... - Norman M 10:37:37 06/13/15 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I understand your perspective... posted by Mark Man on June 13, 2015 at 09:15:06
        
        I have and used three Brystons (two 7B STs and a 4B SST, with their 20 year transferable warranties)long before there was a Magtech and most probably before it was a thought on "Roger's" mind, so it didn't enter the competition. It wasn't a matter of my sitting down and racking my brain, should I buy Bryston or Magtech?
        
        RE: I understand your perspective... - Audiophilander 11:48:03 06/14/15 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I understand your perspective... posted by Norman M on June 13, 2015 at 10:37:37
        
        I'm not criticizing anyone's choice of amplification. By all accounts Bryston amps are conservatively designed, well built and dependable. We both agree that long warranties are a plus. That said, I'm curious as to why you've made a much bigger deal about Bryston's 20 year semi-transferable warranty than discussing amplifier sound quality, Am I missing something here?
        
        While Bryston amps are highly lauded & have a solid reputation among advocates, there are also numerous on-line reviews critical of Bryston's sound signature. I know this to be the case because I researched both amplifier manufacturers and the testimonial evidence of owners prior to settling on Sanders.
        
        Just to be clear on this point again, I haven't heard any of the current line of Bryston amplification to make a personal assessment, so I have no first hand opinion save for the anecdotal evidence. Norman, I am very impressed by your system and the modifications you've made to achieve high end sound reproduction, and nothing I've said here should be interpreted as taking anything away from that. My 2 cents (the tax applied for beating a dead horse).
        
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        RE: I understand your perspective... - Norman M 17:43:02 06/14/15 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I understand your perspective... posted by Audiophilander on June 14, 2015 at 11:48:03
        
        I believe Bryston's 20 year warranty is totally (not "semi") transferable. It's no big deal, and only offers some peace of mind, as in having insurance for repair costs. I've only listened to one other amplifier make on my Tympanis, Adcom's first GFA 555, two of which I used bridged one per side as if they were mono blocks.
        
        (1) I can't discuss sound quality because I haven't listened to other amps, and it has been so long ago that listened to my Adcoms, I couldn't even compare them to the Brystons today, and (2) AND most importantly I'd really have to be dumb to think that at my age my hearing could possibly be good enough to offer meaningful opinions. I've long been of the opinion that once one becomes Medicare Eligible, one must surrender surrender their audiophile union card, (and in my case, that's been more than a decade ago)!
        
        Your opinion is very meaningful. - Audiophilander 01:48:16 06/15/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I understand your perspective... posted by Norman M on June 14, 2015 at 17:43:02
        
        To my way of thinking, age isn't a factor to having meaningful audio insights. Besides, it's doubtful that any of us has perfect hearing, I know I don't.
        
        What I meant by semi-transferable is the fact that Bryston requires proof of dealer authorized purchase with transferred ownership these days. So, if someone buys a used Bryston amp and the previous owner failed to provide the original receipt, Bryston may opt to charge for repair still under warranty.
        
        FTR, I think your opinions have been better articulated than my own.
        
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        RE: Your opinion is very meaningful. - Norman M 08:10:43 06/15/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Your opinion is very meaningful. posted by Audiophilander on June 15, 2015 at 01:48:16
        
        AuPh, thank you for your all too generous compliments. While I can certainly hear and appreciate the differences in the 'big picture' (as when my Tympani IV-A vs the 3.6 is playing, heh... heh...,), when it comes to subtle differences heard listening to well designed amplifiers of different manufacture, equally capable of driving any given speaker to comparable volume levels, I respectfully yield to listeners which are half my age!
        
        (Bryston is fully aware if a used amplifier was originally purchased from an authorized dealer by its serial number.)
        
        RE: I understand your perspective... - Satie 19:46:15 06/14/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I understand your perspective... posted by Norman M on June 14, 2015 at 17:43:02
        
        Don't underestimate your hearing. While the cilia in your ear which do the freq. detection work ("FFT") do age rather ungracefully, the rest of the system is dedicated to transient detection and localization, and overall SPL detection and change and remains mighty sensitive into old age.
        
        I think once you spoke to Roger Sanders... - Mark Man 12:07:03 06/12/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by Norman M on June 12, 2015 at 08:15:28
        
        It would put your mind at ease...I called him after I bought mine USED...and was looking into buying a Brick Wall surge protector...we spoke for 45 minutes...
        
        He told me his shop had a really bad direct lighting strike and it fried ALL his test equipment, a few computers, other brands of Audio Equipment, BUT his amps and preamps plugged into the wall had no damage at all...so he said do not waste my money on $200+ surge protector...
        
        Not that it says his equipment won't have any issues, but I believe he would treat you right no matter what the repair was...
        
        He also mentioned he would give me full retail price if I wanted to buy a pair of this mono's...I reminded him I bought it used and he said that was OK!??!
        
        During this thread, I personally have tried NOT to over hype this amp...Others have chimed in and sang its accolades...
        
        It is the most neutral amp I personally have ever heard...its character is defined by EVERYTHING upstream...low level detail, effortless power and neutrality are its greatest strengths...the bass that comes out of my 3.7's never ceases to amaze me...
        
        At an MSRP of $5500 it is not cheap, but as we all know in this crazy hobby you can spend much more on amplification...I would really like someone to compare this amp to a much more expensive amp(s) on Maggies...
        
        Thanks
        Mark
        
        RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - raya 06:40:21 06/11/15 (17)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by Audiophilander on June 11, 2015 at 02:47:51
        
        Although, I'm very happy where I'm at, it would be good to hear what the Sanders would sound like in my system. They certainly get nice reviews!
        
        RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - JBen 10:49:43 06/11/15 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by raya on June 11, 2015 at 06:40:21
        
        Raya, following up on what Mark just said, I'll add "be careful what you wish for". The Sanders Magtech + a hybrid tube preamp is about the best thing I have ever heard on Maggies that are not multi-amped.
        
        To it's sheer power, control and smoothness, add that it can extract significant imaging attributes despite a room's limitations.* On the 3.7, the resulting imaging can easily beat that of even dipole speakers costing $50k+. This, EVEN when the $50k+ speakers have a factory optimized room and $100K+ driving gear!
        
        For more perspective, a mighty Classe could not accomplish the same feat with the same 3.7 speakers in the same room as the Magtech did. You can see why I am enthusiastic that Maggies in general would like obey the Magtech the same way.
        
        So, please don't go and listen to the Magtech properly hooked up to any Maggies, is my advice. It may spoil you out of your well adjusted current system...not that it would be a bad thing, though.
        
        RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - macmagman 21:15:46 06/11/15 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by JBen on June 11, 2015 at 10:49:43
        
        "Raya, following up on what Mark just said, I'll add "be careful what you wish for". The Sanders Magtech + a hybrid tube preamp is about the best thing I have ever heard on Maggies that are not multi-amped"
        
        You should hear that set up Multi-amped....
        
        I can't imagine it can be any better.
        
        RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... - JBen 21:50:26 06/11/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by macmagman on June 11, 2015 at 21:15:46
        
        Mac, yup, I would think so, for it tends to be the case with many Maggies when modded for line-level multi-amping. I have not yet heard of a 3.7 thus modified. However, I believe that we are [half] jokingly prodding Neolith into doing it to the 3.7s that have not even arrived fresh from factory yet : - ))
        
        YES...Neo...he is the one... - Mark Man 12:24:39 06/12/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by JBen on June 11, 2015 at 21:50:26
        
        I posted this pic for him on his thread...the Original 3.7 crossover picture from a guy in Canada on Ebay...
        
        Neo will mod the hell out of them...how cool is that...
        
        This tape which was not on the 3.7's but on the i's...is on the 20.7's, (is where it first showed up), and it is on the NEW 1.7i's. I do not know it is on the .7's.
        
        thanks
        Mark
        
        a million ways to get things done... - Mark Man 09:36:42 06/11/15 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: With that sweet system you can borrow my club pass... posted by raya on June 11, 2015 at 06:40:21
        
        In my original reply I stated...
        
        "I personally cannot speak on tube offerings out there...Wazoo has a VAC 300.1 and Greenlatern uses a VTL for bi-amping his 20's...Alan H uses a Berning ZH-270...all top notch Tube Amps..."
        
        If you are happy with your rig...Isn't that what it is all about??
        
        IMHO...I like a tube Pre and big SS amp...AUPH went from tubes to his Sanders Magtech and has not looked back...
        
        That being said...I would like to here Bob Carvers tube mono 350's or his $20K 750's...but do not see either in my immediate future...
        
        My current curiosity would be to hear the PS Audio BHK Signature Amp...Tube input stage and Mos-Fet output stage...They used this amp on a pair of 20.7's at the Munich Audio Show...lots of posts on this combo over on the PS Audio user forum...they had room set-up issues with the 20.7's...
        
        I like what PS Audio is doing as company with their new products...Hired Ted Smith to develop the Direct Stream Dac and Bascom H. King for the BHK Signature...both well established designers in their own right...
        
        Here is a byline Bascom King of the PS Audio Forum:
        
        I have worked my entire career with tube and solid state circuitry for companies such as Marantz, Great American Sound (GAS), Sumo, BGW, Infinity, Counterpoint, Genesis Technologies, Conrad-Johnson, Audio Alchemy, Forssell Technologies, and Constellation Audio. I was responsible for the Marantz 1120 Integrated amplifier, Infinity HCA hybrid Class A power amplifier, Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 power amplifier, various accelerometer woofer servo systems, and Constellation Audio products.
        
        Welcome to the Nut house...
        Thanks
        Mark
        
        BHK Signature Amp (Open in New Window)
        
        Yeah, but I cheated. - wazoo 11:02:33 06/11/15 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: a million ways to get things done... posted by Mark Man on June 11, 2015 at 09:36:42
        
        I used a crossover (Bryston 10B-Sub) to direct the heavy lifting to a pair of subs instead of my 3.7s. It worked a treat, especially after pushing the 3.7s close to the side walls, in a 600sq' room. The 3.7s are now in my daughter's girl cave and are being driven by a 'wimpy' 100wpc (doubles to 200w into 4 ohms) integrated (Marantz PM-11S1), and she's delighted with the setup (sounds great to my ears, as well) - no subs.
        
        I still can't decide what to do with the VAC. I probably ought to sell it, but I'm having a hard time bringing myself to do that. I may just keep it for the day I pick up a pair of ESLs (but, who knows when that might be?).
        
        RE: Yeah, but I cheated. - Mark Man 12:10:25 06/12/15 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yeah, but I cheated. posted by wazoo on June 11, 2015 at 11:02:33
        
        Thanks for clarifying that Waz...
        Mark
        
        It's an important detail. - wazoo 18:50:48 06/12/15 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yeah, but I cheated. posted by Mark Man on June 12, 2015 at 12:10:25
        
        Actually, all of the details are important. The 3.7s work extremely well in a small bedroom (~170sq' (less than a third of the size of 'my' room)), and that room plays into their working so well with an amplifier that most here would assume is underpowered (although its ratings were demonstrated to be beyond conservative in a few bench tests).
        
        In their new home, they do not produce the same kind of image as in the big room, especially in their last orientation: ~Limage. Regardless, they are very enjoyable . My daughter has been enjoying them immensely. It's a wonderful thing.
        
        In their old home, their replacements do not produce quite the same kind of image, either. On the other hand, what they create is completely devoid of offensive qualities. In truth, I'm rather impressed with them - cones and domes, but not exactly monkey coffins. :)
        
        Hey, I still have the hot-rodded MMGs - listen to the music they emit every night when I hit the hay. They are beginning to delaminate. Although I always intended on repairing them (not a big deal) when this day came, I can't get the idea of ESLs out of my head. The first such speakers I ever heard were a pair of Acoustats, and that audition has haunted me for 40 years. Another ghost that floats through my memory is the sound of the Quads I once heard at someone's house. I have a pair of electrostatic earspeakers that I bought in the early 80s. Maybe, it's time for electrostatic loudspeakers.
        
        Life is fleeting; enjoy it while you can!
        
        RE: It's an important detail. - Satie 21:38:24 06/12/15 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's an important detail. posted by wazoo on June 12, 2015 at 18:50:48
        
        How about trying out a line array of AMTPRO-4 8" dipole folded ribbon planars? Since the BGs are still off the DIY market. Like the BG Neo8 they give you the vast majority of what an electrostat does without the dynamic limitations.
        A line of 8 should crossover at 4-600 hz with a bit of baffle and with 94db sensitivity should provide an easy match to your tube amp. You can XO to your dipole cone speakers for bass- lower mids.
        
        Edits: 06/12/15
        
        Hmm, you know... - wazoo 10:00:49 06/13/15 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's an important detail. posted by Satie on June 12, 2015 at 21:38:24
        
        I've looked at BG's offerings with great interest over the last decade, or so, but dynamic limitations aren't a concern for the speakers in question. For now, these will be in my 'bedroom' (the back half of the man cave), and will have to be positioned as head(bed)phones. Still, a DIY speaker project would be loads of fun and I want to have another go at building some frames - the MMGs were loads of fun for several projects and have been amazing performers.
        
        I don't have any dipole cone speakers. My Def Techs are not the BP series, which I think are fine as HT speakers, but I couldn't live with them for music. My mains are the Mythos ST, which do a terrific job at music reproduction (very different sound from the BPs).
        
        RE: Hmm, you know... - Satie 10:09:09 06/13/15 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmm, you know... posted by wazoo on June 13, 2015 at 10:00:49
        
        Those are very well reviewed speakers with conveniently high sensitivity and a good value. Definitely more than enough for a bedroom system. Have you been driving them with your VAC?
        
        Actually, they are the L/Rs in the main system,... - wazoo 14:53:10 06/13/15 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmm, you know... posted by Satie on June 13, 2015 at 10:09:09
        
        which also includes a pair of Mythos STS in the rear and a Mythos 10 center. I'm driving the front three with a Parasound A31 and the rears with an old Acurus A200 and the current preamp is a Parasound P7. The Reference subs remain. This setup is incredible with multichannel SACD & BluRay music.
        Speakers are funny. I actually like the sound of the STs better when driven by the Parasound than the VAC, which is how things started. The Mythos line sounds a bit on the warm side. With tubes, I thought they were even a bit dull.
        I told my wife that I planned to sell the VAC (could recoup a substantial amount of cash), but I can't motivate myself to do it. Deep down, I want to keep it (even if I have nowhere to use it at the moment). Paired with the right speakers (and who knows what's in the future), it's such a sweet sounding amp and it's a seriously beautiful piece of hardware. For now, it's resting in its shipping container (in the back of the room, along with some other gear).
        
        Edits: 06/13/15
        
        RE: Actually, they are the L/Rs in the main system,... - Satie 19:58:44 06/13/15 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Actually, they are the L/Rs in the main system,... posted by wazoo on June 13, 2015 at 14:53:10
        
        Perhaps I understand you better now.
        
        It didn't occur to me that you are running 3 audio rooms, no wonder you ran out of space...
        
        Re stats-I liked the Acoustats (2+2 with sub) far better than the Quads (with or without subs) I liked the CLS better for detail and vocals but it really needs a sub for bigger performances and still lacks the dynamic power of the 2+2. The CLS is top heavy compared to both the Quad and Acoustat. The Soundlabs A1 was easier than the CLS on top and had far better bottom end and dynamics. For longevity and upgrade potential I think the Acoustats are top and the CLS are on the bottom.
        
        Well, ... - wazoo 07:36:49 06/14/15 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Actually, they are the L/Rs in the main system,... posted by Satie on June 13, 2015 at 19:58:44
        
        the room in which the 3.7s are currently located is now my daughter's, although I do have her blessing to use it. The first time she sat down in the man cave and listened to some Faun (her favorite group, and just listen to one of their original members sing (I'd love an entire CD-length recording from this space) - linked below), her eyes lit up and she just said, "Wow!" Now, she has those speakers. In the smaller room, they produce very decent bass, though they don't really plumb the depths like my subs.
        My room got subdivided without walls. So, it's more two audio areas than rooms. It was necessary, but I don't feel like I've really sacrificed anything. It just feel more like the change that it is - better in some ways with a bit of loss in others. As a testament to the inoffensiveness of the Mythos STs, I can sit through an entire Blackmore's Night album without getting sick of Candice's voice.
        
        Here are a couple horrible cell phone photos, but they convey thousands of words in a far more efficient manner.
        from my seat
        
        standing at the bar
        
        I finally have my remote fully programmed and now should turn my attention to tidying up my cabling and placing the drop-in panels back into the rear of my rack. Then, I need to start a little construction project that will displace my water rower. Blah, blah, blah - life ;-).
        
        Elisabeth Pawelke: Ave mers sterne (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 06/14/15
        
        RE: Well, ... - Norman M 09:40:32 06/14/15 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Well, ... posted by wazoo on June 14, 2015 at 07:36:49
        
        I'm sure your current situation is reasonable and entirely understandable, but to this casual outside bystander, in all honesty I feel I have to say that it appears kinda 'nutso'.
        
        Imagine that - nutso behavior in an asylum. :-) - wazoo 10:41:20 06/14/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Well, ... posted by Norman M on June 14, 2015 at 09:40:32
        
        It was all driven by an untimely death in the family, one which directly impacted my daughter's living arrangement. I chose the most expeditious and effective solution I could envision. The resulting compression of my listening area forces me to place my speakers a bit under 4' off the front wall, and the ones I'm using at the present (I traded with my daughter) simply work better at such a distance in my room and for my purposes.
        The MMGs can't stay where they are, as that space will be otherwise filled by September. I have a rather nutty idea for a way to use them, which I'll reveal if I take that route - if nothing else, for the riotous laughter it will probably yield. If you think my cheese has slipped off my cracker, that's okay, and I'd probably find it impossible to compose a cogent argument to the contrary.
        
        Edits: 06/14/15
        
        RE: Imagine that - nutso behavior in an asylum. :-) - Norman M 11:40:24 06/14/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Imagine that - nutso behavior in an asylum. :-) posted by wazoo on June 14, 2015 at 10:41:20
        
        I'm truly sorry and totally understanding of difficulty caused by death in a family. (It's possible that I too might be impacted by a similar situation. 'Only two things in life are certain: ..... and .....'.)
    - RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - JBen 23:16:45 06/09/15 (0)
      LOL, no shots from me, either. When someone manages to do some proper tweaks and creative tricks on Maggies and their respective rooms, seemingly magical things can happen. Besides, if you like it that way, it means that you baked it and you ate it, too! That's some real gold.
    - RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - Satie 21:00:17 06/09/15 (0)
      That is a very good idea and some of the forum members do as you do with a powerful tube amp for the top and a pair of subs with the XO adjusted to fit the listening vol level and the tube amp's capacity.
      .
    - RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - Davey 19:35:31 06/09/15 (0)
      There's no possible way that system could sound good! I mean who the hell would think an AI preamp mated to Rogue M120's would produce anything but boring, un-involving reproduction of the lowest order. The fact that you've incorporated subwoofers means you've created a horrible integration problem that can't possibly be fixed without expensive room correction software. Not only that, you're professional recording engineer job completely invalidates your audiophile critical listening prowess.
      My goodness, I don't know how you can stand to listen to your system or look at yourself in the mirror.
      
      Rule number one on the MUG forum. Take EVERYTHING you read with a LARGE grain of salt. Much of it is complete BS.
      
      Cheers,
      
      Dave.
    - RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - Green Lantern 18:45:27 06/09/15 (0)
      No way will I ever doubt your system (or anyone else's for that matter). Hell the thing that truly matters is if you like it! Your system btw is top notch as far as I'm concerned.
      Hell I've had people tell me my system 'deserves better' even though they've never even heard it; well I just laugh. Now I could:
      1. continue to enjoy my system as is; making adjustments, upgrading when the 'itch' occurs (usually every 5 yrs or so)...
      or, I could:
      2. go broke trying to impress folks I've never even met.
      I pride myself in maintaining the #1 approach.
      I keep a pair of Emotiva UPA-1 mono blocks (400watts 4 ohm each)for back-up whenever I want to 'change up' and give the tubes a rest (which isn't that often!).
      Hearing trumpets through the true ribbon is something to die for. Two notable albums: Wynton Marsalis 'black code', and a relatively obscured artist by the name of Avishai Cohen, who leads up a group called 'Third world love is another.
      Both magnificently recorded and play well through Maggie's TRT
      
      Edits: 06/09/15
- RE: 'Where's the beef?' - Magnepan must've added steroids to the 3.7i. - Satie 11:27:06 06/09/15 (1)
  The Tympani are awesome speakers, particularly with updated parts and bi/tri amping. The only serious drawbacks are the lack of dynamics on bottom half octave bass without wall loading and other tricks and that the midrange can be slightly on the thick side compared to the better electrostats and a few very expensive recent drivers (both cone and planars like the neo8 I use).
  
  Compared to recent listening with the Focal Nova Utopia, sonus Fabers, Magico and Revel Studio the stock Tympani is lacking in dynamics through the midrange. With the Neo8 and presumably also with a line of AMTPRO-4 planars the Tympani is fully competitive with all of these but for the bottom octave which requires an extra helping of tweaks and/or subwoofers. The 3.x models don't do it though they do go a long way. The 3.x does not sound like a big speaker. Even stock to stock the T-IVA vs 3.x will leave you prefering the T-IVA on all aspects but for midrange clarity in the most recent version of the 3.x. Upgrading the mids to foil at the factory should improve this performance. .
  - Interesting observations. - Audiophilander 16:55:16 06/09/15 (0)
    I'm sure that many Maggies benefit from biamplification and tweaking, but it's probably on a case by case basis. Norman has obviously done some amazing experimentation with his Tympany panels to enhance their capabilities.
    Maggies are superbly engineered speaker designs and since Maggie performance is dependent upon room interaction there are infinite possibilities for improving upon stock units regardless of model.
    Cheers,
    AuPh
    
    Edits: 06/09/15

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