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RE: a crack in the magnepan 3.7 -) 3.7i upgrade mystery?

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In Reply to: RE: a crack in the magnepan 3.7 -) 3.7i upgrade mystery? posted by DrChaos on May 20, 2015 at 16:26:34

As an owner of the new speaker, the midrange tape was the one obvious difference between models. The question, which DrChaos highlights, is WHAT DOES IT DO? Or, what purpose does it serve?

Does it reduce rear wave volume, thus reducing the tendency of earlier models to have excessive upper midrange if placed too close to the FW?

Does it reduce midrange comb filtering effects in the rear wave, again allowing the speaker to be placed closer to the FW? If so, how would this work?

Does it dampen vibrations like a "razor" treatment?

All of the above? Other?*

One other observation as an owner of a 3.7i and an older set of IIIa's. Note in the picture how the speaker leans backward awkwardly. Mine do this too unless I take measures to prop them upright. The IIIa's on the other hand stand up perfectly straight after a quarter century, even in deep carpeting. I prefer the sound of the new speaker perfectly upright (and this raises image height). I assume it is a design defect of the feet with the heavier crossover built into the speakers. This may explain why the newest 3.7i's now come with the round 20.7 feet (Wendell confirmed to me that this is now available and it was on display at AXPONA)

* I suspect Magnepan is trying to optimize the speaker for a specific room configuration -- three to four feet from the rear wall toed in with tweets aiming directly at the listening position.

Follow Ups:

RE: a crack in the magnepan 3.7 -) 3.7i upgrade mystery? - Hasse 00:25:13 05/23/15 (0)
"One other observation as an owner of a 3.7i and an older set of IIIa's. Note in the picture how the speaker leans backward awkwardly. Mine do this too unless I take measures to prop them upright. The IIIa's on the other hand stand up perfectly straight after a quarter century, even in deep carpeting. I prefer the sound of the new speaker perfectly upright (and this raises image height). I assume it is a design defect of the feet with the heavier crossover built into the speakers. This may explain why the newest 3.7i's now come with the round 20.7 feet"

"I will say that the newest model is extremely laid back in upper midrange, with a clear presence dip when placed 8 to 10 feet from the FW. To correct this, I need to get them closer to the FW than I prefer."

Thanks Swamis Cat, very interesting.
interesting thoughts - wazoo 20:05:46 05/21/15 (26)
If the improvement makes them more usable closer to the front wall, then it is not important to me...or, wasn't. My 3.7s were over 9' into the room. That's a point I attempted to make some time ago. It would be nice to know what their modifications improve. If it's an issue my setup doesn't have, then the upgrade would be a waste of money.
- RE: interesting thoughts - Swamis Cat 08:41:44 05/22/15 (3)
  Wazoo,
  
  Yeah, I think your concern may have merit. Like you I prefer my speakers WAY out in the room. My IIIa's need to be well out to tame the upper midrange, which dominates everything if too close to the FW. And way out gives an unbelievable soundstage.
  
  I do not have 3.7s, just the 3.7i's, so I can't compare these speakers. I will say that the newest model is extremely laid back in upper midrange, with a clear presence dip when placed 8 to 10 feet from the FW. To correct this, I need to get them closer to the FW than I prefer.
  
  I really get the sense that they are "voiced" to be optimized somewhere around four feet from the FW. Everything snaps into place from a tonality and frequency response standpoint, but at the expense of the soundstage depth one can get further out in the room.
  
  At AXPONA, they were demoing the 3,7i in the Exosound room set up 2 feet from the full window FW with two sets of curtains, tweets out in the corner. The mid bass was a tad boomy, but other than missing soundstage depth the tonality was great. Wendell approved, and JV thought it was among the best sounds at the show (I disagree, much preferring several more expensive brands in other rooms)
  - even more 'interesting' - wazoo 06:05:28 05/23/15 (2)
    Reading your comments intensifies my angst. If your observations are accurate, then not only would I have wasted money for the 'improvement', but the expenditure would have made my speakers less good for my setup - which is no more.
    Now, the situation is even more gritty. As I can no longer commit such a vast amount of floor space to the placement of my planars, an improvement which addresses the problems associated with placement close to the FW would be beneficial.
    It's comical (in the Shakespearean sense), isn't it?
    
    Edits: 05/23/15
    - RE: even more 'interesting' - josh358 07:41:48 05/24/15 (1)
      What happened to your floor space?
      - It got re-purposed. - wazoo 17:32:36 05/24/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: even more 'interesting' posted by josh358 on May 24, 2015 at 07:41:48
        
        The bed is new to the room, as is my blind, old dog - the one remaining. She is adjusting well (knows to follow the noise I make for her). We aren't up here all the time, but this room has been off limits to the animals - easy to keep clean as a result. With the shift in gear came a shift in attitude.
        
        For the moment, my MMGs are up in the cave (I need to repair them, soon (beginning to delaminate)). They are a few feet from the end of the bed - 2001ish (in the bedtime system). The 3.7s are in a room in the house which is principally my daughter's. They just wouldn't work in the compressed, multipurpose space upstairs. So, I have something that does. Life rolls merrily along.
- RE: interesting thoughts - andyr 21:21:54 05/21/15 (21)
  It's interesting (to me, anyway!), waz, that Magnepan used to be very helpful (up to the mid 90s) - hence the 'Tweaks' section has all those old schematics, for people who want to upgrade their XOs.
  But (possibly since Wendill took the Marketing helm?) they do not like to give out helpful information any more.
  
  Regards,
  Andy
  
  Edits: 05/22/15
  - RE: interesting thoughts - josh358 07:39:35 05/24/15 (3)
    Wasn't Wendell in charge of marketing back then? Anyway, according to Mark Winey, their current policy is to provide schematics for discontinued models, but not for the current one.
    - RE: interesting thoughts - Davey 07:50:23 05/24/15 (2)
      That might be their policy, but they're not following it. Schematics were/are available for current (and then current) models like the MMG, 1.6, 3.6, etc, etc.
      
      Dave.
      - RE: interesting thoughts - josh358 07:57:20 05/24/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: interesting thoughts posted by Davey on May 24, 2015 at 07:50:23
        
        Interesting. Don't let them know, they might catch on. :-)
        
        RE: interesting thoughts - Davey 09:00:17 05/24/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: interesting thoughts posted by josh358 on May 24, 2015 at 07:57:20
        
        They can certainly do whatever they want, but when asked directly what the "i" upgrade is and all you get is a rye smile and a politician answer, it is somewhat irritating. :)
        I just don't see the point in it. Oh well.
        
        Dave.
  - indeed - wazoo 06:01:19 05/23/15 (16)
    There is a definite change in the company's attitude towards dispensing information. In this case, I think it is inexcusable that no information is given, period. As a 3.7 owner (who already took a blow to the wallet by purchasing the 3.6s first, due to intentionally misleading information about the introduction of the new speaker (no replacement for the 3.6 is currently in the works - blah, blah, blah (fib, fib, fib (it was already developed and ready for introduction)))), it is important for me to know what the improvement addresses. For the life of me, I cannot understand why such a simple question cannot be answered - not even in private, with a secrecy swear.
    
    I continue to be impressed with Magnepan's customer service in all other areas, but find the company's hyper-secrecy irritating. It has impacted me personally, in a negative way, and that has changed my attitude towards Magnepan.
    - RE: indeed - Swamis Cat 13:59:12 05/23/15 (14)
      As they say, YMMV, but it would be nice if you could listen extensively to a modded pair before proceeding.
      
      I have found another trick to reclaim the midrange when further out from the front wall, though this sounds like it won't apply to your case soon. *
      
      I have to agree with the concerns over the excessive secrecy, not just about this model change but about usage in general.
      
      Can you guys imagine if there were people at the Magnrpan web site who had informative blogs on different ways to set up and optimize their speakers with feedback and dialogue with the designers? An article on tricks to optimize in all room conditions, etc. I really think Magnepan is missing a marketing opportunity as revealed by other more interactive and open manufacturers.
      
      * the trick is to do an inverted Limage. Put the speaker near the SW, but instead of aligning it with the FW, toe it in at approximately 45 degrees or slightly beyond with near field seating. This eliminates the SW reflection entirely and increases upper mid balance and slightly tames the treble. It images great, better than Limage in my room with 3.7i and the increased Mids are much livelier. As. With everything there are trade offs, in my room this includes an overly cavernous sound, especially if more than 8 feet from FW. YMMV
      - RE: indeed - josh358 07:35:17 05/24/15 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by Swamis Cat on May 23, 2015 at 13:59:12
        
        In all fairness, there's a lot of information on setup on their website and you can call Magnepan and get help with setup questions directly from Wendell. It's actually an unusually high level of customer support if delivered in a somewhat old-fashioned manner, phone vs. email. But they're a small company and I don't think they have the personnel to spend a lot of time writing blogs and such.
        
        RE: indeed - Swamis Cat 14:25:10 05/24/15 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by josh358 on May 24, 2015 at 07:35:17
        
        i am a big fan of their overall level of support. I've hotten direct help from Wendell, if usually cryptic*, and the other folks are a charm to work with.
        
        They could do substantially better though at building up marketing and user support. Would you like me to provide examples of what they could do better or differently?
        
        * example of the cryptic support...
        Q Do the new round stands improve performance?
        A If you think they do, then they do.
        
        Q is there any distance too far away from the front wall on the 3.7i?
        A. No.
        
        These are pretty much direct quotes.
        
        RE: indeed - josh358 15:30:05 05/24/15 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by Swamis Cat on May 24, 2015 at 14:25:10
        
        LOL, love the quote about the stands. You're right of course that it's bound to mystify the customer! But it seems likely to me that they just don't know for sure, since their primary goal was cosmetic.
        
        It seems to me the second answer is correct in practice. I've heard that depth improves until at least 15' out from the front wall and theoretically I would expect it to improve at even greater distances -- until the timing of the reflected rear wave matches that of a typical concert hall. It's like adjusting the pre-delay on an artificial reverb.
        
        RE: indeed - Swamis Cat 09:58:52 05/25/15 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by josh358 on May 24, 2015 at 15:30:05
        
        LOL. Thanks Josh. Your answers are what I would actually expect from a marketing rep. I know you aren't one, I just mean you are replying in the helpful, "isn't audio exciting and interesting" way I wish THEY answered more often ( to be an even better company).
        
        On the stands, it would have been the perfect opportunity to bring up their blind listening panel and what they found and why they did it, and the importance of being exactly upright or whatever. Perhaps some stories on thoughts of the designers, or great executions on stands and what the pros and cons are.
        
        On the distance from FW, a perfect opportunity to bring up trade offs of distance (I have tried them from three foot to 11 and once got to try with NO rear wall at all and there are clearly many tradeoffs.). Then convert this discussion into a dialogue on ways various users capitalize on these strengths or whatever.
        
        On the i controversy, again there is a perfect opportunity to treat loyal owners as valued customers and share some ideas of when they find the upgrade is most helpful, or not.
        
        One guy's thoughts,,,,
        
        RE: indeed - josh358 11:44:13 05/25/15 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by Swamis Cat on May 25, 2015 at 09:58:52
        
        Well, it has to be remembered that Magnepan has limited resources. Wendell wears several hats and they don't even have the budget for a real web site design. So nice as it would be, I think there's a limit to the amount of informational writing they can do. They do discuss some of the more practical issues on their website and in the manuals, but it's generally very practical stuff -- what size amp do I use, where do I put the speakers in the room, etc. I think there are more specialized resources for those of us who want to delve more deeply into the tradeoffs in speaker and dipole placement, though not all are available online.
        
        I think Magnepan did discuss the stands some -- they showed two alternative version at CES and asked for feedback on which ones they should put into production. But as far as I know, they didn't have sonics in mind when they redesigned them, rather, they were trying to improve the aesthetics.
        
        Wendell says he mentions his philosophy on blind testing and often has sent it on to us. In general, he's very reluctant to describe the sonic characteristics of their speakers, because he doesn't like that kind of marketing -- he feels that if products are good listeners and reviewers will hear the differences. And he told me not long ago that the reviewers have heard and accurately described almost every sonic change they've made, and have never thought they heard one that hadn't been made. I think this speaks highly of the skill of the reviewers but also points to the fact that Magnepan does require that listening panel to approve any change, meaning that when the change is made you can bet people are going to hear it. Anyway, that's his philosophy and reasoning, but I don't think it always translates well when a customer calls and says "Should I get this? What does it do to the sound?" and gets frustrated when he says "We prefer the product to speak for itself."
        
        Regarding distance, I think there's a fundamental problem here and one that applies to two-channel stereo, not just Maggies or dipoles per se. Specifically, two-channel stereo is highly dependent on the acoustics of the listening room, but listening rooms are seldom the same size as the studio or concert hall -- and those vary in size. So -- if you just play a pair of speakers, any kind of speaker, outside, they won't give you a sense of envelopment. If you play them in an anechoic chamber, it's even worse, stereo has been described as a narrow slit between the speakers.
        
        I've spent a lot of time listening in the studio, where acoustics are, while not entirely "dry" or dead, deader than they are in a listening room, and, really, it isn't satisfying. The sound is very clean and you can hear a pin drop, which is why they're designed that way -- so you can hear minor flaws -- but you don't get a sense of realism with music recorded in larger acoustical spaces. So we use the listening room for a bit of reverb. Only it can't be optimized to suit every recording, from a small dead studio to a vast undamped cathedral.
        
        Some studios have actually been designed with variable damping to allow you to tune the room to the recording but that's only a partial solution and it isn't practical at home.
        
        As I said earlier, in the case of dipoles, the further from the rear wall you put them, the greater the potential sense of depth, because the room reflection doesn't mask the reflection (or artificial pre-delay) on the recording. But you do need some reflections, you don't want to have no rear wall at all. Every room is going to be different and what works for one kind of music may not be optimal for another. Forex, someone, I forget who, told me that he likes to use absorption behind is Maggies because he listens to a lot of chamber music. He isn't after a concert hall acoustic. Whereas someone who wants a concert hall acoustic would likely want to get his speakers as far away from the wall as possible and/or use diffusion to more closely emulate a hall acoustically.
        
        And, of course, the bass issues are separate, although my own tendency is to optimize for imaging and let the bass take care of itself -- they just never seem to gel in the same place!
        
        RE: indeed - Swamis Cat 09:09:19 05/26/15 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by josh358 on May 25, 2015 at 11:44:13
        
        Thanks for your excellent reply, Josh.
        
        Just to clarify again. I am a huge fan of the company and their speakers. As someone with extensive experience in product development and marketing of new products, I believe Magnepan is missing a marketing opportunity. Yes, I am aware of limited resources, and am familiar with the support they do provide. Indeed, I would go so far as to say they could really use someone JUST LIKE YOU to promote dialogue on optimizing the user experience and generating interest and passion.
        
        I agree with your observations on setup. I too am addicted to a deep, holographic soundstage. And like you, I find the best place for bass is usually not the same place as the best for sound staging. Tradeoffs. The other thing I find is that as the speaker gets further out from the FW, the image gets what I call more "ethereal."
        
        I was able to experiment with no back wall once for about five minutes. The sound was simply terrible, possibly the worst I've ever heard in my house.
        
        Nine to ten feet is my preferred distance for imaging and soundstage, six foot (one third of room) for bass, and four foot for snap and transient crispness. Optimal positioning also differs based on whether using my IIIa's or 3.7is. The older speakers benefited more from being further out due both to the awesome low bass and the brighter upper midrange. The newer speakers like more toe in toward the listener.
        
        RE: indeed - josh358 07:35:58 09/06/15 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by Swamis Cat on May 26, 2015 at 09:09:19
        
        That's what I love about planar placement, no matter what you do, it's always somewhat unpredictable because of crossover lobes affecting the backwave and such. And of course, there's no one perfect position . . .
        
        Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? - Mark Man 08:45:57 09/06/15 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: indeed posted by josh358 on September 06, 2015 at 07:35:58
        
        We do NOT take kindly to Know-it-all newcomers...
        
        Great to hear from you Josh...Hope all is well in my world and you are happy and healthy...
        
        You are missed around these parts...so to see you and Mart posting makes me feel warm and fuzzy...or do I have shingles??? whatever...
        
        I have typed toooo much on the 3.7 to the 3.7i...for being 20 minutes away from Magnepan it was a no brainer to do the upgrade...still worth every penny and then some...
        
        NOW with Sherlock NEO on the case...he has lifted the skirt, (literally), on the 3.7i's...I have posted several pics of older 3.7 x-over...don't as me for a schematic, Greek to me...I also posted, many times the damping tape on the backside magnets over mids and partial bass...
        
        This damping tape is on the .7's, 1.7i's, 3.7i's and the 20.7s...showed up first on the 20.7's
        
        Take care
        Thanks
        Mark
        
        RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? - josh358 09:00:27 09/06/15 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? posted by Mark Man on September 06, 2015 at 08:45:57
        
        Hey Mark,
        
        Yes, saw Neolith's schematic last night for the first time -- haven't been around because I was making a push to finish the endless renovations here, but finally did get everything done and the dropcloths removed this week -- so should be setting my speakers up this afternoon, after the flea bomb has dissipated. I got a "new" amp, too, a used A-21 that will replace the Emotiva -- eventually plan to put a Class D on the bass as Satie did, but for now I'll be running things full range while I experiment with setup.
        
        Well, all I can say is it will be good to have a functioning system again, rather than just talking about systems!
        
        I may disappear again for a while since I have so much to play with and reinstall -- still have to assemble my HTPC, mount the projector, etc. But after that I should have more time to hang out.
        
        Particularly surprising, the news that the midrange is 8 ohms!
        
        RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? - Roger Gustavsson 11:01:01 09/06/15 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? posted by josh358 on September 06, 2015 at 09:00:27
        
        The midrange has 11 strips of magnets, earlier models 13. The foil is a single path, about 1 m long, cross section 0.075"x0.01". That is 0.56 ohm/m. The 3.6 has a thinner and longer wire, 0.84 ohm/m. The mids of the 3.7/3.7i is driven over a smaller area but the force created by the thicker conductor is higher.
        
        RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? - josh358 17:12:43 09/07/15 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? posted by Roger Gustavsson on September 06, 2015 at 11:01:01
        
        Interesting. It looks like they went for better dispersion, assuming the mid/tweeter crossover point is the same. Which they'd want to do if the slope is gentler. I'd expect the woofer/mid crossover to be higher with a lower surface area, feasible with the acoustical trick they appear to have played with the woofer.
        
        Still haven't had time to more than glance at he schematic . . .
        
        RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? - Roger Gustavsson 21:37:21 09/07/15 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? posted by josh358 on September 07, 2015 at 17:12:43
        
        It seems the mids are the same width but there is a gap towards the ribbon driver. The Mylar is not driven there, two strips of magnets have been removed.
        
        RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? - Satie 22:37:56 09/07/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? posted by Roger Gustavsson on September 07, 2015 at 21:37:21
        
        Any idea why there? and not just on the woofer side since there it would marginally increase woofer area. Do you think it might be to get better dispersion at the high end of the mids since they run them into 6+ khz?
        
        RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? - Roger Gustavsson 06:00:20 09/10/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who are you??? And why are you posting on this board??? posted by Satie on September 07, 2015 at 22:37:56
        
        No idea. The driven area of the mid is smaller but the Mylar is still wide there.
    - RE: indeed - Davey 08:30:29 05/23/15 (0)
      It's not really a problem if a company is not forthcoming with technical information on their products. The issue is occurring here because for a long time Magnepan WAS forthcoming.
      
      A simple statement with a reason for the change would be appreciated......or, if not a reason, just an acknowledgement of the fact would be fine too. Neither has happened. It's highly puzzling.
      
      Dave.
RE: a crack in the magnepan 3.7 -) 3.7i upgrade mystery? - Norman M 14:30:47 05/21/15 (0)
That requires 'secrecy' because competitors could use it to their advantage?

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