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In Reply to: RE: The MMG Harmonic Distortion Conspiracy Theory...mostly tongue-in-cheek, long posted by Davey on March 21, 2015 at 05:42:11
Evidently you missed the humor intent; fine -- I guess I'd starve as a comedian.
OTOH, there was that word: "mostly". I'll say this again so you don't miss the serious part:
- Magnepan did not feel it was a defect, nor did they admit it was. In fact, not even a solution or option was offered. "Gee, your MMGs are out of warranty but if you send the MMG to us at your cost, we'll have a look." or "Yes, send us the sweeps, let's take a look". Nothing of the sort was said. BTW, I am not really "accusing" Magnepan. Overall, they still do far better on customer service than many companies.
In addition -- to my knowledge -- there is NOT a widespread issue of OVERLY high distortion.
What there is, however, is the possibility that some folks are asking us for solutions to some problems that are really reflections of what happens to OG42's MMG, or other issues that measurements could catch.
Would you really mind if folks learned of a diagnostic resource? One which could also help many of them make their system sound much better?
Follow Ups:
I got your humor intent. Actually you're doing pretty well as a Magnepan humorist. :)
You're clearly implying there is a "defect" in this aspect of the Magnepan performance.....you did it three times in your post. Maybe you'd like to elaborate on your assertions vice all the silly rhetoric? I gave you a couple of hints regarding the reasons for the distortion.
I think the members here are more interested in your solution to this distortion issue/problem/conspiracy. Or at least your explanation of why Magnepan doesn't feel this problem is a defect.
If you've got something, please offer it up.
Dave.
I agree, on the "solutions" part. In fact, I had hoped you would ask from the start, instead of trying to dismiss the subject altogether. I shall get back to this later simply because it was part of the plan all along.
For now, let me just bring some some stuff that I deleted from the previous post, trying to keep it focused. I kept the separate draft which I shortened after pasting because a few things were already implied or because I -- mistakenly -- thought they would not be needed.
1. Original first sentences: For the record, we do believe that something is not quite right with that particular MMG. In fact, Old Guy 42 thought of the buttons long ago. We don't want to mess with them for now, so they have not been touched. We have looked into other areas, and even found other suspects elsewhere. But the buttons certainly remain a suspect.
2. Cut from further down:
"YOU may have accepted a high harmonic distortions as "inherent and expected" on many Maggies. Some others may also done so. That's fine if they know what they are buying into.
3. Further down:
However, others may only know that their speakers are not sounding as great as they expected, or glary, or too bass-poor, or too soft/bland, etc. Some of us can provide a wider range of diagnostic resources, along with ideas on how to deal with an issue.
4. Original closing:
If you want to bury your head under the ground because you can't tell or hear the difference, I have no qualms. If you want to ignore measurements because of your engineering application dogma, don't come implying that a reality is unproven. Above all, do not deny others a chance to learn. Ultimately, whether THIS ONE issue is a defect or it is part of the factory design, it is of less importance. There are now more resources for those willing to walk the extra mile and find things out. THAT is a more important thing.
Now, back to the replacement that I used for the paragraph above:
"Would you really mind if folks learned of a diagnostic resource? One which could also help many of them make their system sound much better?"
Please answer this simple question above.
Let's just cut to the chase, shall we.
Inmate JBen made it clear in the OP that this "bump" in second harmonics did NOT appear in either of his 1999 MMGs nor did they appear in a set of 1.7's that he has suitable measurements. I have changed-out Amps, pre-amps, speaker cable, ICs etc., and the "bump" remains on the same MMG. Also, I checked for de-lam and loose XO parts, etc., but no dice on my 2008 MMGs.
So the question is...do you, or anyone on this board have a similar experience with the "bump" on an MMG? If you would like to share your experience, please do. If you don't want to share, that's OK too.
Let's please stop with the tennis match.
Respectfully...old guy
Ooops! Sorry Old Guy 42...we posted at the same time. I am duly chastized, I guess. Now humbly picking the balls off the court and back on the can, I'll try to stay more focused.
LOL, we should also tell then gang about the "staple count"!
Hi. J
I meant no offense, J. To me, you are the biggest gentlemen in these here parts.....
None taken, thank you.
It's not a tennis match. It's just silly rhetoric from JBen.
It seems fairly clear one of your speakers had an actual issue/problem. To couch that problem in language that intimates Magnepan has some sort of "conspiracy" to build-in distortion to their transducers is just silly.
To answer you question: No, I don't have a similar experience. All of the Maggie drivers I've measured distortion from were similar left/right and with other sets.
So, it seems you have/had a bad driver. It's not a difficult conclusion to come to. Why is all of this nonsense from JBen necessary? That's my question. :)
Dave.
WOW, you really DON'T get it do you. Do you understand what "tongue-in-cheek" means??? There is NO conspiracy. Now you are trying to make something out of nothing. Talk about "silly"!!!
If you had just answered JBen's question in the OP, that would have been quite sufficient.
On the rest of your post...thank you for your info....
A mostly tongue in cheek Harmonic Distortion Conspiracy Theory that's not really a conspiracy. Got it. :)Isn't it obvious that my "engineering dogma" is interested in the part that's NOT tongue-in-cheek? :) My goodness.
What did you do to solve this problem? Or are you still experiencing it? Those are the real questions here.
If I had the transducer in my listening room I could certainly find the issue for you, but it's a bit difficult to troubleshoot via forum messaging with all sorts of irrelevant information included.He did make mention that your two tests were done on different days. It's possible that may have invalidated your testing scheme. This type of thing requires a strict discipline in testing if valid conclusions are to be made. So, it's possible your transducer has no problem.....just the inherent distortion.
Make sense?Dave.
Edits: 03/22/15 03/22/15 03/22/15
Davey, let's just get to the park's cafeteria and have a coolin' drink, my treat.
Yes, if I had that MMG here it would have been easier to apply more resources and find out sooner. As it is, OG42 has done a remarkable set of measurements and tests without the benefit of more resources. At the very least we know some fundamental measurements. The latter are not just the REW ones but also some structural items of interest. We will detail them as best we can soon. I need to take care of other things today.
Now, you added an edit even as I replied. Your last paragraph is new, and I am glad you added it for it also speaks to our level of transparency. On the part where you say " This type of thing requires a strict discipline in testing if valid conclusions are to be made. So, it's possible your transducer has no problem.....just the inherent distortion."
Yes. I may have shortened things on edit and accidentally dropped mentioning that these are far from the only, or best, measurements that we took since we began. They were simply the ones "at hand" and with enough common elements. The ones on March 13 got partially corrupted and I though I would show what can happen when noise is ignored. Importantly (in this case) despite the noise intrusion on March 13, even the noise cannot hide the distortion that we have always found in cleaner measurements. Old Guy 42 did take an extra read of the sine wave ditortion at 115Hz on March 15, which I included first, on the post itself.
I tried to include relevant details -- even those that may seem as "invalidating". Tests were repeated along time precisely because the vagaries of in-home measurements do present challenges and easy mis-direction. We have no anechoic chambers. Personally, for critical items, I can only be sure after testing several times along time. This is one of those rare instances when -- despite notable environmental changes -- it keeps looking like a duck and quacking like one all the time.
You know Dave, if your "engineering dogma" is NOT interested in "tongue-in-cheek" why did you not cut to the chase and answer JBen's OP???
As far as irrelevant info. goes...What part of " I checked for de-lam and I also checked for loose XO parts" qualify for irrelevant info??? Are you just taking pot shots at other posters??? I thought you were only interested in "engineering dogma".
Other things I have tried is to add rope caulk to the frame/driver. I also noticed an odd placed staple on the top of the one in question. I have plans to loose the staples and find another way to fasten the driver to the frame.
ALL my sweeps were done in the same spot, and at the same height. I think JBen's OP tells the story pretty well with my experience.
If you want to continue, how about just the "engineering dogma" part of this thread, OK???
I'm not sure what the "cut to the chase" answer you're looking for is. You guys are the ones who had the firsthand experience, made the measurements, and determined the higher distortion. It's not clear to me what the cause of that issue is.....or whether it was an issue at all. I could make something up if you want. :)Checking for delam....noting odd-placed staples....trying rope caulk....investigating better fastening. All good steps and that IS good relevant information. It's information that is interesting/valuable and helps to possibly narrow the issue. "Engineering dogma" were not my words....I hope you caught that.
Why is it so difficult for JBen to approach Magnepan discussions/postings without resorting to strawman arguments, or looking down his nose at my engineering discipline, or taking cheap shots at my hearing ability, or etc? It's a mystery to me.
I'm glad to help you guys if I can....and I don't having my technical statements and technical speculations questioned. But please don't insult my intelligence with the other stuff.
Cheers,
Dave.
Edits: 03/22/15
WOW...In a previous post to me you posted that you never experienced this "bump" in an MMG, correct? If you re-read JBen's OP you will find that he posted his 1999 MMGs did NOT have this "bump" either. He asked if
anyone with experience with this, to post their findings. Why did you NOT "cut to the chase" and tell him what you told me without all your prose.
No one is insulting you, Dave. It's clear to me you have an ax to grind. That's sad, truly sad. This Planar Asylum is a GREAT source of info for me, but I dislike your posts to inmate JBen.
Anyway, thanks for the info and I'm "over and out"...old guy
No, I said I haven't noticed higher distortion levels between left/right speakers and/or different sets. I said nothing about "bumps."
That doesn't totally address your possible issue/problem noted here....just relating my distortion experience....which is what you asked me about.I think maybe you better look at the other (not mine) posts in this thread to experience all the "prose." :)
If you can't see the insults then you're blind....or dense...or something else.
Dave.
Edits: 03/22/15
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