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In Reply to: RE: This should save you some time & give you something else to do posted by Satie on March 17, 2015 at 20:43:04
I'm still learning about this and was actually commenting more conceptually. I don't have a good sense of what all various DSPs actually do for bass management. I agree about the XO region needing to be in phase but it's actually easier than that.According to Toole who's saying the same thing that you are in different words, subwoofer frequencies (80 Hz or less), are minimum phase. In English, or your language of choice, that means, for the listener sweet spot, FREQUENCY RESPONSE IS ALL YOU CARE ABOUT about and you want to get it flat. Frequency response contains all the information about phase and transient response that matters at low frequencies. You can move mains and subs, the listening position, or use parametric equalization to accomplish that. If it's flat when you're finished, "mission accomplished" and it will sound great. That's helpful for anyone who doesn't understand all the technical stuff.
Edits: 03/18/15Follow Ups:
My own experience is that phase and time alignment are useful for "bass imaging" which was not recognized as something that exists in Toole's day. It is significant in determining acoustic dimensions of the recording space, plays into the way we determine image size
You can have atrocious FR and still obtain amazing lateral imaging. You also can get good depth but somewhat incorrect layering. Event timing in the structure of a transient determines the bulk of imaging cues and is extremely sensitive to precise time response. The localization is entirely over with before pitch is determined by the ear. We are talking 3msec for transient localization (0.1 to 10 ms) then size is determined and "texture" only then is the tone determined (10 to 30 msec).
Prior to Toole and the frequency domain theory taking over as dogma in psycho-acoustics there was active research into transients, that was resumed more recently. I posted an article that consolidates some of the research into transients about a year ago. It is not a difficult read.
http://www.bodziosoftware.com.au/Attributes_Of_Linear_Phase_Loudspeakers.pdf
I do not want the frequency response flat at the listening position. A microphone is also not equal to our ears/hearing. A microphone can give you a hint of what is right/wrong but it cannot give you the whole truth. In the end it is matter of psycho-acoustics and a microphone cannot tell you much about that.
@ Roger G,
You are correct, the microphone will only say flat or not, nothing to do with taste and biases, some like it a bit fat in the Bass. some not...
Regards...
Can You explain more of what You mean by some like it more fat in the bass?
It's easy to interpret it like flat is the right sound.
The truth is rather not if You listen to a recording through flat measured frequency and compare it to real life.
Also, a flat frequency response does not take dynamic compression into account.
A frequency plot is only telling You about the frequency balance at a specific db continuous output.
Cheers!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
A microphone is a very simple device compared to our hearing. An in-room measurement should never be flat at the listening position. A psycho-acoustic flat response is something different! That is what we want and it is not a straight line in a diagram. This could be a good start, http://i47.tinypic.com/rrt8yd.jpg , maybe a bit more in the low bass region. This is for pink noise measurement.
Depends, you want your FM curve anechoic or at the listening position, the microphone is just a tool, what you may or may not like has nothing to do with the FR being flat.I dont think -8 db at 12K would work for me at the listening position, then again it's pink noise from a stereo pr, so it's not the same and the droop at 10K is normal due to being off axis to tweeters and stereo phasing.
Then again you are using a simple microphone with pinknoise ... :)
Edits: 03/28/15 03/28/15
Thanks for the link Roger!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
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