• RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - lne937s 16:14:06 04/10/15 (20)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 20:29:16

  Here is the thing:
  Your speakers look beautiful.
  I fully believe that you love the way they sound and view what you did as a sonic improvement as well as a physical improvement....
  
  But STOP there. The physics assumptions being made are where you will invariably get into an argument.
  
  Wood is a resonant material
  Pianos, Harps, guitars, cellos, violins etc. are made out of wood because it is a resonant material. The differences in how those wooden instruments sound when the string length is the same is due to the resonance that wood imparts on the vibrating string-- it colors the sound of a vibrating string. And people like that coloration it imparts on a vibrating string. When wood resonates and vibrates in the presence of air, those vibrations are transmitted to the air as sound.
  
  Solid hardwood floors have higher sound transmission than engineered floors of the same thickness and same attachment method. That is because solid wood is resonant. All things equal, solid wood of the same thickness, stiffness and density will be more resonant than an engineered wood and will transmit more sound to the air.
  
  Fundamentally, you are allowed to like the sound you like. You are allowed to like the sound of speakers that have some coloration. It is perfectly fine to do so. To the vast majority of people they may sound better.
  
  But when people try to take what they like and then create physics descriptions to justify their preference (rather than to reflect the actual physics at play), you will create an argument. Persisting in your claims will just drive scientifically-minded people nuts and will actually make them less likely to try or like the solution you are advocating.
  
  It is like me saying I like bacon and then trying to tell everyone it is low in fat and sodium because I like it, and then coming up with some theory that contradicts commonly regarded science because I like bacon, and then telling everyone they are wrong if they disagree with me because I tried bacon and I like it, and then getting upset with everyone when they disagree with me. If I wasn't so adamant about my low fat and sodium bacon theory, many people would try bacon and like it.
  
  Like what you like. If you want, try to get other people to try what you like. A lot of them will like it too. But don't confuse your personal preferences with physics.
  
  

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  • RE: "Coloration" - Cory M. 20:41:30 04/12/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 10, 2015 at 16:14:06

    First of all, thanks for the compliment. I'll take those any day. ;-) I wish that you could come over and listen to these, they do sound as good as they look.
    
    I believe that we may have a misunderstanding here. We're not dealing in absolutes. I even tried to avoid this division of interest with my pre- disclosed statements such as "from my experience", and "here's my take on it"
    
    That said, these are my personal experiences, and I'll back them up. I'm even willing to take measurements if I can secure the proper instruments. The "before" front might be a little difficult to quantify, but perhaps there are some individuals here that are willing to measure their stock speakers. I do want to know why most people who have actually heard both iterations of the same speaker prefer the wood framed version.
    
    I fully agree with you that wood attached to an audio transducer will resonate. In this application, however, the absorption qualities of the wood will outweigh the reverberant properties. Unless tuned to be such, wood is more resistive than reactive. If one wasn't as concerned with the appearance of their speakers, they could apply an acoustically absorbent material, such as Dynamat, to the frames. Then again, that might be counterproductive, as you may just be giving the mylar something to spring back against, without knowing exactly what balance is needed. This would also vary at different frequencies. Dawnrazor used a Dynamat- like material directly on the magnet bars of his speakers with reportedly great results. It's all about impedance matching and dissipating unwanted vibrations.
    
    Engineered wood could be a better option after all, perhaps I spoke to soon. Maybe that would be the best of both worlds. You never know until you try (or mock it up). The glue and other materials included in with the actual wood may in fact provide just the right density. I did automatically make an assumption about the hardwood being better, or closer to the ideal.
    
    I wasn't out to build the best when I undertook this project, only better, and mostly based on tried and field tested methods. If there's an area where I can improve my speakers even further which doesn't involve massive time, labor or money, I'm all about it.
    
    I use this forum as a collaborative source of information. I generally pay attention to most of the ideas presented, and then make my own decisions based on this pool of knowledge, while dismissing some subjective results, and use my own accumulated data. I went forward with my re-frame project under these principles. They turned out well. The end objective has always been removing as much distortion as possible. I have succeeded in moving towards that end. I have the speakers here , and I can physically appraise the results.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Cory
    
    
    
    

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  • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - pictureguy 22:42:00 04/11/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 10, 2015 at 16:14:06

    Wood SHAPED like a cello or guitar or violin forms a resonant cavity. At least ONE speaker manufacturer that I know of takes advantage of this idea fabricating enclosures while virtually ALL ported speakers rely on this idea.
    
    Wood is a composite with a distributed resonant mode.
    
    Forced vibration should be distinguished from resonant vibration.
    
    It is also important to distinguish between real wood and the various forms / densities of MDF and plywood, for that matter.
    
    I'd like to experiment with PLYBOO.
    Too much is never enough
    
    

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  • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Satie 22:48:57 04/10/15 (17)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 10, 2015 at 16:14:06

    Even though this frame has a larger front surface area than most frame builds shown here, the surface is still smaller relative to the drivers. Its emissions to the air are negligible. This is not a box speaker with 10X more surface than the driver area.
    
    You are dismissing the explanation given and claim to have the "right" physics. I think you are missing the boat in your analysis.
    
    The issues involved in these hardwood frame projects have been discussed at length all over the forum. Too many people have claimed the same type of IMPROVEMENT to make it a subjective matter of taste or an issue of coloration. I suggest you read them.Particularly those where PG is involved.
    
    There are two things that hardwood provides which MDF does not.
    1. transmission of ringing vibrations from the magnet board and transverse waves from the mylar. to the frame. (it is also dependent on the coupling method of the magnet boards to the frame)
    2. transmission of the vibrations to the mass sink or absorbing material (if used)
    
    In short hardwood frames dissipate distorting extraneous vibrations from the drivers because of that exact transmission quality you point out.
    
    hardwood also provides a stiffer material to reach the goal of a rigid frame..
    
    MDF does not provide a sink for the ringing of the magnet board and transverse waves in the mylar because of its terrible impedance mismatch. These are reflected back into the drivers.. It is the absence of these colorations in the hardwood framed speakers that has garnered near universal praise (not a personal taste issue) .
    
    Others have solved this with different schemes. Dawn razor by damping the magnet board and its frame with CLD damping sheets that actually do absorb the ringing and transverse (ripple) waves from the mylar. Also the "bow and arrow" mod dampens ringing. And some have clamped aluminum L beams to the driver frame to damp it (damps both ringing and ripple)
    
    PG, who has seen many naked maggies playing describes the difference in the appearance of the mylar while playing in the MDF frame vs the hardwood frame as you can see rippling motion on the mylar when in the MDF frame and the lack of ripple in the hardwood frame. He also points out that the MDF is still while the magnet board is vibrating (ringing) whereas the hardwood frames vibrate and the magnet board is still in hardwood frames. The emissions to the air from the hardwood frames are much less harmful than the ringing and rippling from the drivers sitting in MDF frames.
    
    I applaud and encourage everyone's attempts to figure out what causes the perceived improvements rather than just state the subjective "better". The speculations on the physics of the causes provides us much more than the simple subjective evaluation and allows us to come up with alternative methods to do the same and to improve on the methods used by other forum members.
    
    The most useless thing anyone can do is dissuade anybody from exploring the possible physics involved and to insult our intelligence with "you must like distortions" statements and "its all in your head" penny psychology.
    

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    • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - pictureguy 22:45:38 04/11/15 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 10, 2015 at 22:48:57

      Satie,
      THe ADVANTAGE of a theory, at least a 'correct' one is that you can make PREDICTIONS which can later be VERIFIED.
      Real wood frames have apparently passed this test.
      Too much is never enough
      
      

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    • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - lne937s 10:06:24 04/11/15 (14)
      In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 10, 2015 at 22:48:57

      NO, mass personal preference does not mean strict or even close adherence to the mechanical ideal. The healthiest meal is often not what is the nutritional ideal. People prefer music that is not made out of perfect sine waves. Many people buy cars that look sleek but have horrible aerodynamics. People often prefer the sound of audio gear that does not make an accurate representation of the source material. People claim fuel economy improvements from things like cold air intakes that have no measured improvement in a modern car (although psychology, they may change driving behavior)... People prefer what they like, regardless of what the scientific ideal is. And again, it is OK to like what you like.
      
      But sometimes people try to come up with BS scientific explanations to try to justify liking what they like and will perpetuate them unless the FTC forces them to stop.
      
      And I have heard all the arguments before. Misinformation that started a decade ago has clearly spread, despite the attempts of some of us to nip it in the bud back in the day. This is nothing new.
      
      I completely agree with more rigid attachment and how the driver frame could be better mounted. And the there needs to be a better way to damp the metal frame of the driver. But that doesn't make solid hardwood the mechanically ideal material.
      
      IF the wood was completely encased in a sound absorbing material, then it would transmit those vibrations better to that material, where they are absorbed. Spring steel would work even better to dissipate vibrations over a larger surface area. Some multi-layer sound absorbing materials work this way. However, in the presence of air, a vibrating surface will transmit those vibrations to air. And a resonating material mounted to the mechanical source of those vibrations will transmit back to the source if they are not absorbed or transferred to another material where they are eventually absorbed. If you can feel the frame vibrating or put a mechanics stethoscope on the frame to isolate it from the rest of the sound in the room, what you feel or hear on the surface of that frame what is being transmitted into the room. If you want to place accelerometers around the frame, measure, and then measure the surface area of the frame, then you can do some calculations of how many DB's of sound is transmitted to the room. It may be acceptable to you.
      
      I actually encourage people to explore the physics. The reason I came back here is that I would like to actually be able to explore physics here without being inundated with misinformation (something I have my doubts about currently). Accelerometers are cheap now. Microphones are cheap now. Measure, do the math and figure it out. But adamantly passing on and reiterating the same justification that goes against established scientific principals over and over again for over a decade is NOT exploring the physics.
      
      Honestly, if you build to the measured mechanical ideal, you will probably end up with something that you do not like the sound of as much. That is OK-- you are a human being. Wood tends to have pleasing resonances, which is why it is used for so many musical instruments.
      
      And I have no doubt that drivers mounted in different frames using different mounting methods will give different appearance to the mylar. The drivers are not very stiff. But that still does not make solid hardwood the mechanically ideal material. The personal testimony of a guy who used to sell wood frames does not change that.
      
      I have no doubt that some frames made out of solid wood are better than the stock frames. And I can say with complete certainty that they look better. But it doesn't change physics and it doesn't make solid hardwood the mechanically ideal material to make the frames out of.
      
      But, once again, like what you like. It is OK.
      

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      • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Satie 14:03:33 04/11/15 (10)
        In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 11, 2015 at 10:06:24

        There is no claim of ideal material choice in using a hardwood frame. It is merely one that has been reported to be successful in the same way by many people.
        
        There is obviously sound radiating from the hardwood frame. But in most builds there is a relatively small surface area facing the listener and the output is thus not great relative to the driver output. Having substantially less extraneous vibrations of the magnet board and mylar is the main benefit. The emission of that same energy from the hardwood members of the frame and braces/struts if there is no transmission to a sink or large mass would still be an improvement over having it compromise driver performance.
        
        As to reported results, there are useful reports where the changes are described by category.with some detail and specifics and there are useless subjective gestalt evaluations.
        
        Experienced audiophiles and particularly modders have less expectational bias as they have the experience of things coming out entirely differently from what was expected at the start of a mod or tweak. The general approach among my friends in this hobby is try, see what happens, and evaluate critically. All have had great surprises and disappointments in both using new equipment and mods with high expectations and things that "should not have" had as substantial a difference as they had.
        
        I particularly pay attention to descriptions of image placement and size in acoustic music recordings and reports of tonal shifts as well as changes in detail retrieval. Finally, changes in dynamics if substantial.
        

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        • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - lne937s 15:57:10 04/11/15 (9)
          In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 11, 2015 at 14:03:33

          Sorry if I assumed you thought wood was the mechanical ideal. I transferred that was what you were implying from some historical comments made by previous posters on the subject.

          Audiophiles are just as susceptible to snake oil and bias as anyone else, despite their claimed golden ears. The internet is littered with placebo-effect devices, magic stones, wooden blocks, cables, etc. that people claim make a tremendous difference but make no measureable difference. The same goes for cars and any other enthusiast category where people value subjective performance.

          You are likely right about controlling vibrations in the panel, which could be done through multiple different means. But what seems like a relatively narrow border around a panel, can actually have significant surface area. A 6" border around a 1.5' X 4' panel actually has more surface area than the panel itself. Unless you want to study it scientifically, it is hard to claim that the sound created by the frame is insignificant.

          But why should you? Your approach is great. Ultimately, you are creating a speaker that you like and it should make absolutely no difference to you if what you like is actually an accurately measured reproduction of the source material.

          The problem comes in when people start attributing their personal preference to physics that don't exist and start making up flawed science to try to support their preference. That flawed science then leads to more flawed assumptions, flawed solutions, etc.

          But the point is simple. If you like the way wood sounds, that is great. If you want to try something, also great. But your preference does not change physics.
          

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          Edits: 04/11/15

          • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Satie 08:47:08 04/12/15 (3)
            In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 11, 2015 at 15:57:10

            I will counter that the standard measurement suite is insufficient to differentiate between psychoacoustically significant changes. On the other hand, things that are apparently big on the measurements may have no significance for the psychoacoustics.
            
            Recent work has reduced the significance of frequency domain performance in audio and has increased the significance of early time domain - "event" transients and textural transients. It turns out that if you remove the first 1 ms of a tone from a woodwind or violin (or other string instrument) they are nearly indistinguishable from each other. There is some inconclusive work on small transients within large amplitude sine waves that shows our hearing is more tuned to picking those out and localizing them than to the pitch, or even presence of a sustained tone.
            
            It goes a long way to explaining why audiophiiles who don't hear past 10 khz still notice when a supertweeter is turned off.
            

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            • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Davey 09:50:33 04/12/15 (2)
              In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 12, 2015 at 08:47:08

              "I will counter that the standard measurement suite is insufficient to differentiate between psychoacoustically significant changes. On the other hand, things that are apparently big on the measurements may have no significance for the psychoacoustics."
              
              Which helps to explain this situation how? That's a total cop-out position. :)
              
              Evaluation of the wood-framing modification of Magnepan's is fraught with speculation/subjectiveness and it's obviously very difficult to assign any subjective changes to objective measurement differences.....assuming measurements were even conducted. That's a fools errand.....in this case. :)
              
              However, lne937s makes a good point that physics and the physical aspects of a design change simply can not be dismissed and trumped by subjective evaluation. This is something I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to point out for years on this forum. :)
              
              I'm not sure why this topic is still the subject of such contention. Years back there were all kinds of claims regarding the performance "gains" of the Magnestand modified speakers. The subjective changes resulting from JUST the wood-framing aspect was the least controversial of those claims.
              
              Cheers,
              
              Dave.
              

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              • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Satie 14:03:56 04/12/15 (1)
                In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Davey on April 12, 2015 at 09:50:33

                It is a cop out since I don't know exactly how to measure the changes that I and other people report in their various bracing, magnet board damping, stiffening/clamping of drivers (for transverse ripple reduction). Aside from bracing that increased bass dynamic range and extension measurably, none of the other things are easy to measure.
                
                The bow and arrow mod reduced the 800-1000 hz ringing peak in the Tympani bass panels but that was a small prominence on the raw driver and was only large (~3 db) when the drivers were XO'ed at 2nd order (250 and 300 hz). at higher orders the peak was less noticeable..
                
                As to clarity that increased, and subjective increase in dynamics how do you measure the smallish ringing and kazoo ripple noise when the complex signal is playing? It is supposedly a S/N measurement but on a speaker. I guess you can do a THD measurement to compare. I am not sure that it would pick up the difference.
                
                Accelerometer measurements on the frame and magnet board would show differences but are not measures in audible performance.
                
                Impulse response can be done to show alterations in the damping if you can notch out the peak to show the long trail - but ringing and ripple build up over a few seconds and not only on impulses.
                

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                • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Davey 16:11:40 04/12/15 (0)
                  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 12, 2015 at 14:03:56

                  "Accelerometer measurements on the frame and magnet board would show differences but are not measures in audible performance."
                  
                  Are you sure about that? I hope you're not saying measurable differences are not audible. :)
                  
                  Just because these measurements were acquired with an accelerometer and not a microphone doesn't mean they wouldn't be audible. In this case it's impossible to separate out the excitation force and listen to just the frame vibrations, but I suspect if you could they would easily be audible.
                  
                  Re-radiation from adjacent surfaces needs to be understood. In conventional speakers the objective is usually to minimize/eliminate this, but we have a different paradigm here.
                  
                  Dave.
                  

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          • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - pictureguy 22:59:56 04/11/15 (4)
            In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 11, 2015 at 15:57:10

            
            
            

            
            The 'trick' is having a theory which makes or allows VERIFIABLE predictions.
            First order predictions using wood as the model, seem fairly successful. Don't discount the observations of PG and others.
            
            Ideal material? hmmmmmm. If the driver were framed in something COMPLETELY inert, what would the effect be?
            
            I have my own 'model' from which I work. I am VERY concerned with driver / frame mounting, which some others 'handle' by the simple expedient of WOOD SCREWS.
            
            Also, I think APOGEE was on to something with the truncated baffle shape. Like this: a First Pass drawing I made in Sketchup.
            Too much is never enough
            
            

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            • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Satie 14:07:26 04/12/15 (3)
              In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by pictureguy on April 11, 2015 at 22:59:56

              The drivers are inside an MDF frame, it is not far from being inert. The extraneous vibrations are reflected into the driver. So you get kazoo play along and tinnitus like ringing along with a rough presence region as volume increases.
              

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              • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - lne937s 22:54:11 04/12/15 (1)
                In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 12, 2015 at 14:07:26

                I wouldn't assume that "ringing" is the MDF as much as the mounting method. The feltlike structure of MDF absorbs sound better than the linear structure of solid wood of the same density-- just the nature of the beast. MDF is also not ungodly hard and reflective-- this isn't granite. However, it doesn't hold a screw as well. Unless you built your frames to the exact same dimensions (routing in the same recesses and holes) with the panels mounted the exact same way and then measure... then you really can't assume it is the material choice making the difference and not the construction/mounting method.
                
                If the wood is vibrating, it is also transmitting those vibrations back into the driver(and not just dispersing them into the air). But a stronger coupling between the frame and driver will transmit more energy to the larger mass of frame.
                

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                • It's the listeners choice! - Bigjimsguitars 06:10:35 04/13/15 (0)
                  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 12, 2015 at 22:54:11

                  Threads like this are polarizing. Magnepan wins awards, accolades and otherwise as they come out of the factory OEM. In fact, most (like me) enjoy them that way. When I bought my 2.5's years ago, it was from an estate sale of a Hollywood sound engineer and the cross overs were upgraded, otherwise are stock and I love them just as much as those who have framed theirs or performed other modifications to them.
                  
                  Those who say modified is better are right for themselves and not for those who choose stock for listening. Better stated, it's not religion or politics, it's about the enjoyment of listening to music. Personally, I seek realism, not perfection. I want a concert sized soundstage that is holographic that produces music as I have experienced it.
                  
                  If we all had the same system, room acoustics and so forth, it would be rather boring. What's great is that Cory loves his ad much as I love mine.
                  
                  Jim
                  ARS VS-110
                  Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
                  Preamp
                  Magnepan 2.5R's
                  B&W ASW 300 Subs
                  Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
                  w/Siemens E288CC's
                  MaggieMate X/O's from subs to
                  2.5R's
                  
                  

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              • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - pictureguy 14:29:53 04/12/15 (0)
                In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 12, 2015 at 14:07:26

                Far from 'inert'.
                Reflected vibes? Kazoo effect? 'ringing'?
                All forms of stored energy released BACK into the system and probably mucking things up.
                
                Maybe instead of 'inert', I should have suggested 'vibrational black hole'?
                Too much is never enough
                
                

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      • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - lne937s 10:51:54 04/11/15 (2)
        In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 11, 2015 at 10:06:24

        to put it another way...
        
        the argument to this point has gone:
        -I like the way this sounds
        -Therefore it must represent the mechanical ideal
        -Create justifications to try to back up my assertion of that what I like is the mechanical ideal with bits and pieces of science that really don't work the way I describe
        
        But because you like something does not mean it represents the mechanical ideal. MOST people actually do not prefer the most accurate reproduction of source material. Psychoacoustics is not physics. Most people prefer some resonances and uneven frequency response. Amar Bose built a company around Psychoacoustics that sells a ton of speakers to people who think they sound great.
        
        If you want to study why you like the sound of wood frames, first study what you prefer. Then study the physical properties the wood frame has that impart characteristics on the sound that you like. Then optimize those physical properties.
        
        The fallacy comes in when people take what they like, assume it is the mechanical ideal, then try to make up justifications for why their personal preference must be the mechanical ideal.
        
        
        

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        • "Mechanical Ideal" - Cory M. 18:47:53 04/12/15 (1)
          In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by lne937s on April 11, 2015 at 10:51:54

          Well, I never claimed that this method of interfacing Magneplanar drivers to a frame represented "the mechanical ideal", but it sure is a lot closer than the OEM standard. This, I will stand by, and is absolutely based in physics. There exists a better method, no doubt. I couldn't locate any Imioplex G, so I had to settle for hardwood.
          
          I also never intended to start or participate in any "argument" . A pleasant discourse would be nice, however.
          
          Please don't make assumptions about my preferences and intentions. I didn't claim to be a rocket scientist, but I too am "scientifically minded", and really would like to know why wood frames sound "better" to many people.
          
          Let's work together.
          
          
          
          
          
          
          Cory
          
          
          
          

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          • RE: "Mechanical Ideal" - lne937s 22:18:57 04/12/15 (0)
            In Reply to: RE: "Mechanical Ideal" posted by Cory M. on April 12, 2015 at 18:47:53

            I didn't mean to go off on a rant. And some of this is largely the result of astoundingly frustrating people who were on here years ago who initiated theories similar to what you proposed-- the same people who drove me away from participating here.
            
            And if you want to study why you think wood frames sound better, please do. However, you may prefer pleasing colorations and that are actually not an accurate reproduction of the source signal. In fact, when they have done psychoacoustic studies, most people prefer audio with some high end roll off and added resonance.
            
            People who make the assumption that the speakers are accurate because they prefer them is where the conversation starts heading down a rabbit hole.
            

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    • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Roger Gustavsson 09:40:58 04/11/15 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Satie on April 10, 2015 at 22:48:57

      This is worth reading, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132757.0
      
      
      

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• Beautiful workwork!!!! n/t - panhead 09:18:29 03/08/15 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 20:29:16

  n/t
  

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• RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - computerman 09:29:59 03/05/15 (5)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:29:16

  Cory, I love the mahogany grain. Beautiful job! I am sure you will enjoy just looking at them and admiring them as I do mine. Your excellent craftsmanship is evident. What do you plan for crossovers? I agree on all points about sound improvement. There is only one reason that Magnepan uses MDF and that is cost. I bet if anyone asked them they might even admit it. :)
  

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  • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Cory M. 16:06:32 04/12/15 (1)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by 59665 on March 05, 2015 at 08:29:59

    Thank you. Yeah, they are almost as pleasing on the eyes as they are the ears. ;-)
    
    I'm using a DEQX PDC 2.6 for a 3 way active crossover. I just run an RCA splitter from the bass channel outputs on the DEQX to my subs, and let their internal XO take it from there. That's where I want to implement the MiniDSPs. I am a huge proponent of time/ phase alignment (which I can set up through a laptop and mic. on the DEQX, with linear phase filters), and that would get the job done with the subs, too.
    
    
    
    
    Cory
    
    
    
    

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    • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - computerman 05:47:55 04/13/15 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on April 12, 2015 at 16:06:32

      Cory, that is an awesome setup. Do you mind me asking what you paid for the DEQX PDC2? I know that the DCX2496 is not near as good as the DEQX. The DEXQ has been admired by me for some time, but budget restraints have prohibited me from purchasing it so far. Hopefully that will change in the future.
      My Sunfire Pre/Pro has an internal crossover for a sub so that is how I am handling my one sub, and it has an additional output should I wish to add another, but what would be ideal is to include the IIIa bass drivers in the picture with the Tympani 1-D's, problem is what provides the input to the mini DSP? Are you using just your subs for the bass? How are you driving the bass panels? What am I missing in my understanding of your setup?...thanks!!
      

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  • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - pictureguy 10:52:01 03/05/15 (2)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by computerman on March 05, 2015 at 09:29:59

    Costs involved for minimal return prevent Magnepan from going to this 'model'.
    I've devoted some thought to this and the additional equipment for the woodshop part of things, the additional EXPERTISE and supply problems not to mention the fact that while a certain % of buyers would want OAK, others would want Sapelle or perhaps Walnut or some of the REAL exotics.
    Turnaround would than be an issue. Maggie CAN'T stock the amount of wood in the variety of species needed unless they kept it down to 2 or MAYBE 3 of the 'top sellers'.
    Wood can be funny to work with, too. I don't envy the craftsman having to do fine woodworking with it 20 BELOW outside and you have to SHIP the final product to a warmer clime. Shrink? Swell? Warp? SPLIT? All are real problems with wood when changing climates.
    
    Than you open the REAL can of worms. Crossover? Parts choice, build quality and MORE work for the inevitable EXTERNAL crossovers needed when you go to premium (large) caps and AIRCORE inductors.
    
    I have suggested the 'custom shop' approach but get little traction and can understand why.
    
    And yes, Magnepan makes fine speakers at what amounts to a commodity price.
    Too much is never enough
    
    

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    • RE: Minimal return - Cory M. 16:22:00 04/12/15 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by 50086 on March 05, 2015 at 09:52:01

      Agreed on all points, totally! There's no way that Magnepan could do it there. For a lot of reasons. That's why we have Peter Gunn. ;')
      
      I was near White Bear all week. It was warm when I got there, the sun was shining, then it got really cold and rainy the next few days. Wood warping when shipped? Nah...
      
      
      Cory
      
      
      
      

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    • Bingo! - M3 lover 11:31:09 03/06/15 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by pictureguy on March 05, 2015 at 10:52:01

      Of course Magnepan could limit hardwood choices to two or three, but I've read more than one comment from them that their business plan is to produce good quality speakers at reasonable prices. Years ago Vandersteen had a similar perspective and so wrapped their models in grill cloth rather than wood to keep costs down. Now with their Model 5, and subsequent releases, that has changed, and so have Vandersteen prices.
      
      So this leaves options such as Peter Gunn's offerings for those not as adventurous as Cory to take it beyond basic stand upgrades.
      
      "You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
      
      

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• RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Voncarlos 09:28:29 03/05/15 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:29:16

  Nice work Cory !
  Thanks for posting.
  I agree with you that some folks got a little grumpy.
  To bad some folks have to make snide remarks.
  Some biking forums I belong to simply will not put up with that. . . at all.
  Any chance you could post a pic of how you attached the Mylar drivers to the wood frame?
  Thanks Again.
  
  Here's a bad pic of some OB speakers I made a few years ago, standing next to my aging MGIIIa's .
  

  
  
  

  
  
  
  

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  • The backs aren't as pretty. But that pic of the open baffles you built, on the other hand - Cory M. 17:49:17 04/12/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Voncarlos on March 05, 2015 at 08:28:29

    
    
    

    
    

    
    
    

    
    Thanks for the kind words. And those open baffle speakers that you built... WOW!!!
    
    Now, those are beautiful. True craftsmanship. I would love to hear those babies. How are the drivers crossed over? What's the sensitivity like? More pictures, if you have them, would be quite welcome.
    
    To attach the bass/ mid panels to the frames, I simply routed out notches for the crossbars and recessed the portion around the perimeter of the whole driver for them to fit snugly into. Then, I used painter's tape to attach some plastic over the mylar & magnets on both sides, and drilled holes for some wood screws to go into. I made sure to clean up the metal filings very well, as complications from having them work their way into the assembly was the last thing I wanted to deal with. It worked just fine.
    
    The ribbon is basically sandwiched in between two pieces of wood, with them being routed out again for the cage to fit into, and attached with the factory screws. I did get a little carried away with the router in a couple of places, as you can see, going all the way to the edges. It really helps to pre-plan all of your cuts. That's why I used the metal braces, although the wood glue and dowel pins should have been more than sufficient.
    
    And yes, those are the original side rails. I routed them out to fit on the main frames, and stained them to match/ contrast.
    
    Once I got started with these (and with a little help from my dad and grandpa), it was actually pretty "easy", and most of it went fluidly. Now, with your experience, it should be a piece of cake! What are you waiting for?! ;-)
    
    
    Cory
    
    
    
    

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• RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - pictureguy 22:02:21 03/04/15 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:29:16

  Excellent, top-tier job. I'm sure the effort involved produced the desired AUDIBLE effect.
  
  congrats.
  Too much is never enough
  
  

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• RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Sondek 19:14:12 03/04/15 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:29:16

  Hey, Cory
  
  That's really pretty sweet, but isn't the sound a little diffuse with that pine tree growing in front of the speaker like that?
  
  
  
  
  

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  • RE: Pine tree diffuser - Cory M. 17:00:03 04/12/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Sondek on March 04, 2015 at 18:14:12

    Ha, I knew someone would comment on that. Had to be you. ;-)
    
    Well, she wanted the Christmas tree there. It would have fit in about 4 other places, but no. Had. To. Be. There. Oh well, it really didn't muck up the sound too bad, and it was only up for a couple of months. Next year though, I'm getting my way.
    
    
    Cory
    
    
    
    

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• All I gotta say is that carpentry is beautiful! nt - Dman 08:16:42 03/04/15 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:29:16

  nt
  
  Dman
  Analog Junkie
  
  

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• RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Green Lantern 05:54:26 03/04/15 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:29:16

  absolutely beautiful!
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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  • Thanks, GL! (n/t) - Cory M. 17:05:54 04/12/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Green Lantern on March 04, 2015 at 04:54:26

    .
    Cory
    
    
    
    

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• RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - Desafinado 22:58:47 03/03/15 (2)
  In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:29:16

  Cory, those MG IIIs are knockouts! Tastefully finished with great craftmanship and attention to detail. I have no great woodworking skills but your expertise is obvious even to me.
  Did the final results live up to your expectations both visually and sonically?
  

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  • Definitely. - Cory M. 17:05:13 04/12/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Desafinado on March 03, 2015 at 21:58:47

    Thank you. I just used wood lotion on the Mahogany to retain its natural beauty, as opposed to making it so dark like you see most of the time.
    
    I do want to add the vertical slanted back braces like P.G. uses, and some spikes on the bottom in the future, though.
    
    
    Cory
    
    
    
    

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  • RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. - mraudio 23:49:40 03/03/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now. posted by Desafinado on March 03, 2015 at 22:58:47

    Those are gorgeous! Very well done indeed. Wish I had the skills...
    

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