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In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by pictureguy on March 03, 2015 at 00:49:20
Isn't all matter *composed* of a bunch of sub-atomic particles?
Maybe the difference lies in man-made vs. nature made?
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Look at enlarged pics of WOOD. You will have layers of differing density which will transmit vibes at different rates. I suspect differences ACROSS vs WITH the grain, as well. You may even have differences between 1/4sawn and plain sawn. I know the heartwood will be different than the growth areas of a a tree.
MDF is very homogeneous and I can't imagine its properties differing from one sheet to another OR in different directions thru the material.
See the provided link for some PICTURES and text. Just for informational purposes, Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard'. Balsa is a hardwood. It is all a matter of CONSTRUCTION of the wood.
Too much is never enough
AIUI, whether any particular tree is defined as a 'hardwood' or a 'softwood' is to do with whether or not it has flowers? So, as you say, balsa is thus defined as a 'hardwood', even though it is so soft you can easily indent it with your fingernail.
Andy
As near as I can tell,
This link is Accurate.
It hinges on Balsa being an 'angiosperm'
I learned this particular bit of weirdness in WOODSHOP while going over just what wood IS. how it looks and some of the engineering aspects of HOW it works.
That's how come I'm so BIG on wood when it comes to 'reframe' of Maggies! Most everything I learned in class Jives with what PG used to rant about.
Too much is never enough
Some people here, pguy, just won't accept anything that PG says. ;-))
I don't know if you're aware of some listening experiments some memebers of TNT Audio did, where they built solid hardwood cabinets for some small speakers and then compared the sounds produced by the speaker which had the stock MDF cabinet with the same drivers in the solid wood cabinets.
The easy - and unanimous - decision was that the MDF cabinets " sucked the life out of the music ", compared to the solid wood cabinets. But why do spkr mfrs use it? It's cheap, easy to machine and stable!
Booply sounds like an interesting material to make Maggie frames from! There's a company in the UK has come out with a Linn LP12 plinth machined from a solid block of booply - so no braced & mitred corners to make the box! Supposed to sound very good. :-))
Regards,
Andy
andyr wrote:
"The easy - and unanimous - decision was that the MDF cabinets "sucked the life out of the music", compared to the solid wood cabinets. But why do spkr mfrs use it? It's cheap, easy to machine and stable!"
This is a reason to why music boxes or acoustic instruments are built of wood and not MDF... A wooden box really sounds louder but it may not be closely related to the input signal. Distorsion and resonances always make the perceived sound sound louder.
PG might still be a bone of contention. I'm not going into detail. My interactions with the guy were always reasonable. However, I can see how he bent some personas the wrong way.
That being said, he made a certain sense to me from the standpoint of materials. I don't agree with all his conclusions AND upon inspection of 2 sets of his panels, also do NOT agree with some of his construction techniques and choices. I'll say no more.
I have some ideas of my own, concerning NO metal in the frame, low mass / high rigidity and use of wood. I'd LOVE to try bamboo! No screws thru the drivers and use of CLAMPS for that function while I have an idea for FLOATING the driver in the frame while still being in very firm contact. This will allow for expansion / contraction and no warp. Somebody mentioned the pole piece and that set off another round of thought and a design target. I'll not go into details since this will result in more trod-upon toes. The last feaure is the frame is NOT square but rather a truncated shape ALA Apogee. I will include an image of THAT here and now, but this doens't even quite match my final design.
Dealing with REAL wood in a production shop making box speakers must be a nightmare. You are at the MERCY of suppliers of quality wood, tooling, WEATHER and finding hi-end and dedicated help. No thanks!
Too much is never enough
Your pic got me thinking about what I might be able to do with my frames.
Now you're Talkin'!
Run thru the models in your head, draw in SKETCHUP or other drawing / engineering program and you're good to go.
Too much is never enough
'Pictureguy', Thanks for your reply, I believe all that you posted is absolutely correct. What I had written was 99.9% in jest. I'm sorry if you had taken it seriously.
Sorry I took you 'seriously' . This frame situation has been a REAL bone of contention for several years now. I'm not in the least put out. But, that being said, I would like to eventually reach SOME agreement about frames. To that end, a THEORETICAL framework which makes verifieable predictions sure would help.
Stiffen? Absorb? Reflect? Isolate? Couple? Dampen the PP? Screw driver to frame? Clamp driver to frame? (my idea) Spike to floor? CLD between base and floor? Corian? Aluminum? REAL Wood? Synthetic product? MODIFIED real product? (PlyBoo, for example)
Have a Seance? Use a Ouija Board? Burn Incense? Get drunk and put on some Dead?
Everyone is talking past each other without a listening to others. Few physics principles are involved and not everyone is equipped to evaluate them.
I have my OWN ideas, based on some listening to Gunn'd panels AND Apogee panels as well as winnowing thru dozens (maybe LOTS more!) of posts with some patterns emerging.
Have fun
Too much is never enough
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