• RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods - pictureguy 20:11:52 09/11/21 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by computerman on March 02, 2015 at 13:24:02

  What would your reaction be to PlyBoo.......Bamboo Plywood?
  Too much is never enough
  
  

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• Ah, there it is... - Cory M. 21:56:05 03/03/15 (3)
  In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by computerman on March 02, 2015 at 14:24:02

  Thanks, Computerman. And, my apologies for unintentionally sending that to you. I must have included something in the text that didn't jibe with Audio Asylum's system... that's the only thing I can think of. Or, maybe operator error. That couldn't happen, could it?
  
  I've read through a lot of your posts BTW. Nice looking IIIA's! I really admire how you've isolated the ribbons from the bass/ mid (and low bass Tympani) panels.
  
  I am really thinking of going with MiniDSP's on my subs soon, maybe trying them up top even, also. Sounds like Andy R. is jumping in, too! One thing is for sure, they sure are a deal if they sound good at all.
  
  FWIW, I liked the results I got with a good passive speaker level setup better than the sound I had with an Ashly 3 Way active line level unit. It just seemed to color the sound too much. Then again, that is a pro unit, and it sounded very "transistory" for lack of a better word.
  
  Your active setup now with the DCX2496 should eat most any passive XO for lunch.
  
  Gotta get some sleep now, chat later.
  
  
  
  
  Cory
  
  
  
  

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  • RE: Ah, there it is... - computerman 15:05:11 03/04/15 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: Ah, there it is... posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:56:05

    Thanks for the kind comments Cory. As you probably figured, I molded my Maggies after the "Gunned" ones or "Magnestands" I thought that esthetically they were a piece of art, and the comments by owners confirmed my suspicions with the sound. I did my best to come as close as I could,
    I later started building guitars, but that has been interrupted by my moving to a new apartment...no room for all the power tools. I was building electrics. Learned a lot though and ended up with a real nice tele style made from "mystery wood". It sounds great, so one never knows what the final outcome of an instrument like a guitar or a pair of speakers, will be, and I do believe that when they are used like inmates here use them, then they come at least close to being instruments. We "play" them, modify and even build them, tweak them, play with sonic characteristics, etc. Perhaps if we started thinking of speakers as fine instruments that need tuning...well the results might be different. It takes a lot of experience to get these things sounding good, and I think that some inmates here are artists in their own right.
    My Maggies are also coupled to the floor with spikes, and I do believe that it makes quite a difference.
    As to the crossover, you are the first in any of my posts to state what you said about the DCX2496. It does have quite a following, plus one can put way more money into modding it than it costs. I also had a TDM active crossover similar to your Ashley. When I replaced it with the DCX I noticed an immediate improvement that was quite significant...when I add the Tympani's back into the mix, it can only get better. There is a pair of T-IV's on eBay for about 2000. hmmmm. Maybe in the future. I would love to also add a row of Neo-8's, and just use them and the tweeter, as I do hold with the belief that separate panels are better. When I use just the mids and tweeters with T-1 D's, well about all I can say is WOW! Satie thought that it would be viable to use an extra amp I have for the IIIa bass, and go four way. I was thinking of adding a MiniDSP for the fourth split. What I don't quite get is how would I connect my Sunfire TGP-5 to the crossovers? Right now I am using the two main outs to the DCX, so how does one add an additional channel? Is using the surround outs possible?
    

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  • RE: Ah, there it is... - Roger Gustavsson 01:16:37 03/04/15 (1)
    In Reply to: RE: Ah, there it is... posted by Cory M. on March 03, 2015 at 21:56:05

    I do not think there is a consensus on this matter. I have not seen any vibrational analysis on different types of baffles/frames. An easy way is to use a tuning fork and hold it to the baffle/frame. Wood, particle board, platsics, concrete, metal, laminations of various materials, they all have their properties. Personally, I am against a single solid type of material. I prefer to mix materials with different properties. The way the baffle/frame of Magnepan speakers is made, it is very flimsy. Are we sure that the flimsiness is all bad? Is the opposite what we want? What will sturdiness do? If we want to absorb energy, what materials will do that? Hard and sturdy? To me, a hard and solid material will not absorb very much. It will probably have a high transfer speed of vibrations but it will not absorb them much. Is not high absorption = high loss of energy?
    

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    • RE: Ah, there it is... - pictureguy 11:06:07 03/05/15 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: Ah, there it is... posted by Roger Gustavsson on March 04, 2015 at 01:16:37

      keep in mind that wood is 'natures composite' and has a distributed response to vibrational input. Wood is NOT homogeneous and even responds differently in different directions.
      This is for Maggies.
      Tuned enclosures, of course, are different and can have quite a sharp resonance if so designed.
      
      My mental model is the 'PIE". Each slice of the pie is one factor. Rigidity? Mass? and so on down the list. The pie is ONLY so big and you must apportion your 'needs' among the choices, realizing that optimizing or increasing the performance in ONE category may have influence over OTHER parameters in the design.
      Thru ingenious use of design and materials, it MAY be possible to make the pie somewhat larger, but in the end you still have choices to make.
      Too much is never enough
      
      

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• RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods - pictureguy 00:49:20 03/03/15 (11)
  In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by computerman on March 02, 2015 at 14:24:02

  What is wood if not a natural composite?
  Too much is never enough
  
  

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  • RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods - Norman M 03:08:22 03/03/15 (10)
    In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by pictureguy on March 03, 2015 at 00:49:20

    Isn't all matter *composed* of a bunch of sub-atomic particles?
    Maybe the difference lies in man-made vs. nature made?
    
    

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    • RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods - pictureguy 09:25:51 03/03/15 (9)
      In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by Norman M on March 03, 2015 at 03:08:22

      Look at enlarged pics of WOOD. You will have layers of differing density which will transmit vibes at different rates. I suspect differences ACROSS vs WITH the grain, as well. You may even have differences between 1/4sawn and plain sawn. I know the heartwood will be different than the growth areas of a a tree.
      
      MDF is very homogeneous and I can't imagine its properties differing from one sheet to another OR in different directions thru the material.
      
      See the provided link for some PICTURES and text. Just for informational purposes, Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard'. Balsa is a hardwood. It is all a matter of CONSTRUCTION of the wood.
      
      
      Too much is never enough
      

      • http://lumberjocks.com/theplaneman/blog/11664   (Open in New Window)

      
      

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      • "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... - andyr 17:24:05 03/04/15 (6)
        In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by pictureguy on March 03, 2015 at 09:25:51

        AIUI, whether any particular tree is defined as a 'hardwood' or a 'softwood' is to do with whether or not it has flowers? So, as you say, balsa is thus defined as a 'hardwood', even though it is so soft you can easily indent it with your fingernail.
        
        Andy
        

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        • RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... - pictureguy 18:04:48 03/04/15 (5)
          In Reply to: RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... posted by andyr on March 04, 2015 at 17:24:05

          As near as I can tell,
          This link is Accurate.
          
          It hinges on Balsa being an 'angiosperm'
          
          I learned this particular bit of weirdness in WOODSHOP while going over just what wood IS. how it looks and some of the engineering aspects of HOW it works.
          
          That's how come I'm so BIG on wood when it comes to 'reframe' of Maggies! Most everything I learned in class Jives with what PG used to rant about.
          
          
          Too much is never enough
          

          • http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/question598.ht   (Open in New Window)

          
          

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          • RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... - andyr 18:20:57 03/04/15 (4)
            In Reply to: RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... posted by pictureguy on March 04, 2015 at 18:04:48

            Some people here, pguy, just won't accept anything that PG says. ;-))
            
            I don't know if you're aware of some listening experiments some memebers of TNT Audio did, where they built solid hardwood cabinets for some small speakers and then compared the sounds produced by the speaker which had the stock MDF cabinet with the same drivers in the solid wood cabinets.
            
            The easy - and unanimous - decision was that the MDF cabinets " sucked the life out of the music ", compared to the solid wood cabinets. But why do spkr mfrs use it? It's cheap, easy to machine and stable!
            
            Booply sounds like an interesting material to make Maggie frames from! There's a company in the UK has come out with a Linn LP12 plinth machined from a solid block of booply - so no braced & mitred corners to make the box! Supposed to sound very good. :-))
            
            
            Regards,
            
            Andy
            

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            • RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... - Roger Gustavsson 06:01:14 03/05/15 (0)
              In Reply to: RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... posted by andyr on March 04, 2015 at 18:20:57

              andyr wrote:
              
              "The easy - and unanimous - decision was that the MDF cabinets "sucked the life out of the music", compared to the solid wood cabinets. But why do spkr mfrs use it? It's cheap, easy to machine and stable!"
              
              This is a reason to why music boxes or acoustic instruments are built of wood and not MDF... A wooden box really sounds louder but it may not be closely related to the input signal. Distorsion and resonances always make the perceived sound sound louder.
              
              
              

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            • RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... - pictureguy 21:18:46 03/04/15 (2)
              In Reply to: RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... posted by andyr on March 04, 2015 at 18:20:57

              
              
              

              
              PG might still be a bone of contention. I'm not going into detail. My interactions with the guy were always reasonable. However, I can see how he bent some personas the wrong way.
              That being said, he made a certain sense to me from the standpoint of materials. I don't agree with all his conclusions AND upon inspection of 2 sets of his panels, also do NOT agree with some of his construction techniques and choices. I'll say no more.
              
              I have some ideas of my own, concerning NO metal in the frame, low mass / high rigidity and use of wood. I'd LOVE to try bamboo! No screws thru the drivers and use of CLAMPS for that function while I have an idea for FLOATING the driver in the frame while still being in very firm contact. This will allow for expansion / contraction and no warp. Somebody mentioned the pole piece and that set off another round of thought and a design target. I'll not go into details since this will result in more trod-upon toes. The last feaure is the frame is NOT square but rather a truncated shape ALA Apogee. I will include an image of THAT here and now, but this doens't even quite match my final design.
              
              Dealing with REAL wood in a production shop making box speakers must be a nightmare. You are at the MERCY of suppliers of quality wood, tooling, WEATHER and finding hi-end and dedicated help. No thanks!
              
              Too much is never enough
              
              

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              • RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... - Voncarlos 19:33:16 03/05/15 (1)
                In Reply to: RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... posted by pictureguy on March 04, 2015 at 21:18:46

                
                
                

                
                Your pic got me thinking about what I might be able to do with my frames.
                
                

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                • RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... - pictureguy 19:37:08 03/05/15 (0)
                  In Reply to: RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ... posted by Voncarlos on March 05, 2015 at 19:33:16

                  Now you're Talkin'!
                  
                  Run thru the models in your head, draw in SKETCHUP or other drawing / engineering program and you're good to go.
                  Too much is never enough
                  
                  

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      • RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods - Norman M 13:15:02 03/03/15 (1)
        In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by pictureguy on March 03, 2015 at 09:25:51

        'Pictureguy', Thanks for your reply, I believe all that you posted is absolutely correct. What I had written was 99.9% in jest. I'm sorry if you had taken it seriously.
        

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        • RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods - pictureguy 14:40:00 03/03/15 (0)
          In Reply to: RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods posted by Norman M on March 03, 2015 at 13:15:02

          Sorry I took you 'seriously' . This frame situation has been a REAL bone of contention for several years now. I'm not in the least put out. But, that being said, I would like to eventually reach SOME agreement about frames. To that end, a THEORETICAL framework which makes verifieable predictions sure would help.
          Stiffen? Absorb? Reflect? Isolate? Couple? Dampen the PP? Screw driver to frame? Clamp driver to frame? (my idea) Spike to floor? CLD between base and floor? Corian? Aluminum? REAL Wood? Synthetic product? MODIFIED real product? (PlyBoo, for example)
          Have a Seance? Use a Ouija Board? Burn Incense? Get drunk and put on some Dead?
          
          Everyone is talking past each other without a listening to others. Few physics principles are involved and not everyone is equipped to evaluate them.
          
          I have my OWN ideas, based on some listening to Gunn'd panels AND Apogee panels as well as winnowing thru dozens (maybe LOTS more!) of posts with some patterns emerging.
          
          Have fun
          
          
          Too much is never enough
          
          

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