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Hi friends,
Newer to the forum - looking for some insight before I take the plunge on a purchase...
I got a pair of MMG's about 6 months ago - I have an Adcom 5500 II powering them. I bought that amp in advance as I knew I was going to get some MMG's (based on reviews) and needed something with some power (at a reasonable price) to run them - found a guy on my area that had one for a good deal so I went for it.
I also picked up an Emotive USP-1 locally as well for a decent pre-amp (was using an old Kenwood c1 preamp previously).
So far I think the Adcom seems to drive the speakers well - However, I have this feeling like others are getting something "better" out of their listening than me with the MMG's, with similar "level" equipment.
Recently I've found a few positive reviews of the XPA-2 with MMG's - I've also seen few threads where people seem have an "ok" opinion of the Adcom - which is similar to how I feel.. like.. not bad, but maybe should / could be better??
So.. I'm wondering - hoping - that maybe one of you has had the same equipment and could lend some opinion as I just found a local resource for an XPA-2 (craigslist) and would be buying this thing, hoping / thinking it will sound better than the Adcom.
Any chance someone has heard the XPA-2 and the Adcom and can tell me if it will be a noticeable upgrade? Sadly I will have no way of knowing before I buy.
Any / all opinions welcome - thanks!!
Chris M
"You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note."
Follow Ups:
Hi Everyone - Again.. thank you for all the great advice / support on this.
I finally had time to sketch out my listening space - I made a quick, rough Sketch-up model... the short of it; it's one big finished basement "room" - drywall, drop act. ceiling, carpet, various furniture, sift goods around the room plus a bunch of instruments (doubles as my music studio).. as you can see there is a fire place (mine doesn't look like this but it's the closest thing Google had :) ) in the "middle" - the upper area is where my equipment is. I have two Ikea Kallax shelfs on wither side that hold the vinyl - MMG's next to those.
I have also (finally) gotten round to updating my profile with my equipment.
I am using a 12" Klipsch sub with the MMG's - have it at a fairly low level .. just enough to get some low end in the mix - you'll see it on the left of the left speaker.
Beyond the Adcom I have an Emotive USP-1 preamp, Pro-Ject turntable, lossless audio via Fiio DAC, Onkyo CD.
Several of you have asked for more information on my desires for the system and listening preferences.
I listen to a wide range but primarily vinyl and lossless FLAC sources - musical tastes would be indie rock / pop, classic rock, jazz, reggae (the classic stuff), small amount of country, classical.
My overall nagging feeling is that since I've gone from some basic $400 pair Polk "box" speakers (Monitor 70's) to the MMG's I've definitely gained some clarity and resolution. However, I feel like the MMG's sound "thin" and seem to have a really shrill, over pronounced high end - I heard someone use the term "sizzle" once in reference to this and I definitely experience this.
Overall I'm really missing any warmth and rounded-ness to the sound now. They do really come alive as the volume goes up (and I assume get that power they crave) however that brashness on the high end become too much at louder levels.
I purchased them last Fall and would estimate I probably have about ~125-150 (> ) hours on them - I've tried to really crank them up when I've been using them to let them burn in... I';ve also tried to withhold judgement until I felt like I had at least crossed the approx. 100 hour threshold. What's odd is that I feel like they "sizzle" almost bothers me more now and seems more apparent.
I've also heard others say they have great low-mids, and I feel like I've experienced a "bit" of this on certain recordings (drum fills, some acoustic stuff) but I feel like the panel on these just wants to emit more than I'm hearing. Not sure why I have that feeling but I do :)
As far as reference tracks - A few standby's are;
- Beatles - Abbey Road - Apple label mid-70's pressing vinyl - side 2 - maybe one of the best album "sides' of all time BTW ;)
- Ray LaMontagne - Trouble - (vinyl) - first two tracks - Ethan Johns (son of Glyn) produced.. really great raw instrument sounds - drums, acoustic. Amazing vocals.
- Getz / Gilberto - original 60's stereo Verve pressing - mainly first side. The sax should leap from the speakers on this recording.
A few recent thoughts for your commentary;
- Should I consider using the resistors that came with MMG's - will that help the "sizzle"? Will I lose other features I do not want to ?
- Should I consider a tube PREAMP to pair with the Adcom? .. thought was this could add the warmth and round them out (?) - and then.. of course.. I suspect I'd have to spend several thousand to get a decent tube PREAMP of any type right? Any good budget tube pre's anyone might have had good experience pairing this with?
Thank you all - again - in advance !
Chris M
"You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note."
I think you are describing the sound of the Adcom 5500. I would match it with a tube preamp. There are plenty of old 80s-90s tube preamps you can get for well under $1K, Then you can have the parts upgraded as budget allows. Go to Salvatore's tube pre recommendations for ideas. About half the old preamp models he recommends are from Bruce Moore and Falkland (MFA) who still builds his basic Dual Mono design first made for Audible Illusions before 1980.
Designs have not changed much these 40 years, but parts have improved substantially.
This is interesting.
My first thought was a cathode follower preamp. I've built a few 6sn7 based ones from my parts bin and find them great.
Then I was thinking of updating the kenwood C1 pre with modern caps and ICs. I've even build / modd'd a few Hafler pres and find them very nice.
looking for some jazz and a little libations - joe strummer
If you can build on your own and mod extensively then do go ahead and do it. Moore and Falkland turned to the octal tubes over the 6922s and 12ax7 for output. You might want to build a 12sn7 based output for sufficiently cheap tubes so that you can double the tubes yet get all that a 6sn7 can do.
Chris, I just got home from a trip. I think that I have all the music that you mention as CD or already transferred to the PC. In fact, I now have Ray Lamontagne playing, to warm the gear up while I have dinner. I may be able to get back to you on some items late this evening (Eastern).
In the meantime, look at what Russ mentions. It is good advice on things that need to be tried.
You have to pull the MMGs 4 to 6 feet out into the room. I'd would try tweeters in, and some toe in. Put your ear height at the middle of the panel. Try that for a start, then I would think about another pre-amp.
Been using XPA-2 Gen2 with MMG since Jul last year. Before that used to run the MMG with a Acurus DIA100 integrated. Can attest XPA-2 is pretty good match with MMG and was indeed a step up from Acurus. Although adding a tubed preamp and upgraded power cord on the amp have helped the feeling that sound is warmer and more fleshed out now. I use a REL T3 sub to supplement the MMG. Treble, Mid-range is neutral and very clean. Bass is great to my ear. Soundstage width and depth are good, although I have heard better in a tubeamp in the same room. Instrument separation is excellent. Hope this helps.
Having played with 3.5Rs for ~ 8 years, the last 4 using a Parasound P3 preamp and just installing the Parasound P 5 this morning, both with the same W4S MC 250/500 amp (using only the 500 portion a the moment), the P 5 has made a huge improvement, adding much appreciated warmth and 3 D continuity, and it's band new. Can't wait to hear it in ~ 200 hours
Before that, I used everything from a Dynaco Stereo 70 to the 100wpc amp section from a Harman Kardon receiver. The Emo made a big difference, really woke the MMGs up.
I'd like to try one of the new Class D switching amps one of these days.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
I've had a pair of UPA-1s now for about 3 months; originally bought for a second 'piston' system, they now alternate with a set of VTL tube amps that push the midrange and tweeters on my MG20s. A pair of XPA-1s drive the bass panels.The UPAs are quicker, more decisive and a bit cleaner than the VTLs, but what they do best is play loud without distortion. This is most likely due in part to their 450 watt rating and beefy (w/o the fat) capacitors. They push my Triangle Comete's with ease (not surprising @91db). I haven't hooked them up to my gunned MMGs yet but will in the near future.
Edits: 02/20/15 02/20/15 02/22/15
I can not comment on Emotiva.But I had an Adcom GFA-5500 and a Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 side by side as a duo working in bi-amp configuration.
I quickly discovered that the Adcom was not the one to be used as the high frequency amp and the Nakamichi not on the bass.
The reason was that in comparison the Adcom did not have the sweetness, delight and smoothness in the higher frequencies that the Nakamichi had and was more hard.
And the Nakamichi did not have the powerful control over the bass membrane that the Adcom had and was more "fluffy".Good luck in Your search!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
Edits: 02/20/15 02/20/15 02/20/15
I hope you have already tried listening to them raised about 9 inches above the floor!
A PAIR of the XPA-1L would work wonders. Upgrade the power cord from the feeble 18ga it comes with to 14ga.
The amp is fully balanced to take FULL advantage of XLR connections.
And to whoever suggested Parasound? Kudos.
Too much is never enough
I'm a new Maggie owner that uses them with an xpa-200, I also had the itch to swap the amp and sold an b&k st-202 due to its age , no problems so far.
Nicolas
F'8
If you are technically inclined, JBen is your man...
He is one of the many mad tweakers on this forum...he knows MMG's
Thanks
Mark
Mark, many thanks for the vote of confidence! The rest of the story is that there are quite a few tweaks that have been offered and/or refined by many folks here. I am merely a beneficiary of these efforts.
The challenge is to help each person find the combination of tweaks that is best suited to his/her audio goals and in the respective room environment. Those with technical inclinations may have a wider choice of tweaks at times. The other challenge is to find easier ways, for those not as inclined.
Mad_tweaker999 (LOL!)
JBen / Mark , et all - thanks for the great intel and assistance. I really appreciate your time and experience as I am a budget audiophile trying to constantly get champagne on a beer budget.
i wish I could get into the 2-3k amp range - sadly that's going to be a few years. I had another inmate email me and mention he thought the Emotiva might be a lateral move from the Adcom - he said they had similar circuitry / components. He also suggested - for the cost - that I look at Mysestands and might get more of an upgrade in sound quality over going with better stands... based on some other comment soon forums it seems this could be a better way to spend 5-600 dollars maybe (?).. can't remember how much Myestands are.
Also - One of you asked about my desires overall with the system... I am a musician with a fairly critical ear.. The way I listen to music is emotional, yet "scientific" - I derive enjoyment from hearing individual detail of each instrument, separation, yet also need the "power" to some from the speakers..., I like "oomph" coupled with sonic clarity. My tastes are greatly varied but I can say alternative / indie rock, jazz, reggae and classic rock are all daily occurrences. I crave great recordings and amazing production.
"You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note."
F8
First, I am a big used guy...So, MSRP verse what I actually paid is quite a big difference...
Many guys like the Emotive offerings...
I own Mye Audio Stands as many of us do...Grant, is a great guy with a very high quality product...He will tell the bigger the Maggie the greater the improvement...I would never want to take any of his business away...but starting out, IMHO I do not think buying those stands would be your best bang for your buck...a little better amp might be the way to go...Wyred for Sound and Bel Canto are two very nice class D amps, that can be had used at that sub $1500-$600 range...
I started in this hobby after running live sound part-time for 15 years...My brother is a singer song writer and just cut his first full album this last week...lesserhasbeensmusic.com...so I get the critical ear thing, completely...hence why I own Maggies...they deliver goose-bumps...
If OOMPH is what you are looking for...in my head that means bass...then add a sub...
As you know Maggies like watts...good luck on your journey...
Thanks
Mark
Very well, F8! I think that keeping the Adcom for now while looking into other areas may be just the ticket.
A couple of Qs.
1. Do you have 3 or more albums that you like a lot and can share with us? If so, some of us may be lucky enough to have the same. It can serve as a reference point for discussion.
2. Can you sketch the listening room, size and furnishings. The room is key with Maggies.
3. At this point, what do you feel are the overall system weaknesses that need priority attention? I mean this from the standpoint of "perceived sound". For example, you mentioned clarity coupled with "oomph". Are you getting it already or is there still work to be done? (And, relative to #1, what music/passage would be an example?)
I hope this makes sense to you.
Hi JBen,
See my post below on the thread for some answers to a few or your questions.
Thanks,
Chris
"You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note."
Sorry, Chris, LOL! On Tuesday evening I got too confident. Even after a long trip I thought that some pleasing music would still keep me going for a few hours. I reheated dinner while I warmed up the amps with Ray playing. Ate my chow fast and then sat to listen to the rest of Ray's enjoyable CD, then on to the Brazil gang. Their whole Verve-origin disc, I have in 2 digital versions; not LP anymore but hi-rez enough. I went through both of them, out of sheer pleasure.
OTOH, the British combo ramained untouched, cloistered in their abbey until Friday evening because their time was postponed. I was listening to the spacious Girl from Ipanema for a 3rd time, when Morpheus began his song and dance. The last thing I remember was "watching" the girl as she sang to me from my neighbor's aparment, on the other side of the right side wall.
Which is to say, Maggies do that if allowed. They project image and give it 3D substance. In many cases it can be "looked at", you can turn your head to something and it stays in place, "erasing" walls on all sides, if need be.
Darn, yes, that saxophone comes up clear and substantially textured, usually solid in the middle. No wall needs to be erased for it. So, your Stan/Getz LP may serve us well as a reference for this kind of thing. It may also show good bass by some MMGs alone in some rooms but this is a little harder to tune for. I left the woofers off all the time but my MMGs have uncommon tweaks that use the room to their "bass advantage". [Not all rooms are so helpful but I suspect that yours could be, later on perhaps.]
We probably have opportunities for improvement in key areas like room placement, playback electronics, cabling, electromagnetic interactions and power conditioning. It may sound like a lot. Luckily, low-hanging fruit is usually plentiful and low cost.
For example, Russ rightly mentioned the proximity to the wall behind them, which ain't good for Maggies. See what you can afford to do. A few inches? A foot or two? Four feet+ works great but you may not have them in the current layout. Another room config, with the MMGs on a short wall? The point is, let's try some thinking outside the proverbial box. That said, MMGs "could" be made to work better even if forced to be close to the wall. Yet, every inch away from it that you can afford will make things easier and sweeter.
Those two questions that you ask at the end may come into play later. Unless we find that some of your current gear is well out of their typical specs, you should be fine with it for now. Even using the resistors that came with the MMGs will not fix what you now dislike.
Here are a couple more things that you may want to look into soon, aside from positionings in the room. The full list is much longer but these may smooth out sound, improve imaging and/or make it more dynamic/peppy.
-- Signal cables on clean paths? ...not close to power cords, transformers, walwarts, etc.
-- Power cords 14ga or thicker? Even 16ga may not allow some components to do their best dynamics. You certainly want the power amps AND the CD player to be "well fed". No need for expensive cables. If you need new ones, go for shielded power cords. I think <$20 for each can still be found.
-- At least a half-decent power conditioning setup. So-called "level 1" and equivalents are barely adequate but usually better than nothing.
-- Importantly, watch what things share the audio system's power circuit. Dedicate a circuit (breaker) or two solely for it, if you can. Those walwarts for our iThings, computers, Androids, etc. can be murderous. The fridge, A/C and any induction motor (except turntable) can be outright criminal also.
-- A PC or laptop for music is great IF things are done right. The topic is long, very long, by itself. I can't cover it here right now. For now, my concern is the interference they can cause. Experimentally, listen to music from the turntable WHILE the computer & DAC are OFF/ON to compare. (Of course, it other crappy noisy things, like a fridge, are still in the circuit...)
On all these above, the worst thing is that we often fail to see what is usually right in front of our noses.
Welcome!Adcoms have always been decent beasts, delivering copious power/dollar and acceptable overall sound.
Yes, there are better choices. Mark just mentioned a couple. The Magtech is a dream power amp for Maggies. I can also vouch for the Parasounds. Their Halo A21 is what I chose for a friend to drive his $18K box speakers (and my MMGs love it when I borrow it). OTOH, me being "thrifty", I fixed up a couple of older Parasounds to feed my MMGs. Yet, this effort was made towards the 2nd half of my system optimizations. There's lower hanging fruits to grab. With these, even a good receiver could make some Maggies sing quite well.
I mean that there may be other actions to take before moving on to a better power amp. Sweeter sound for cheap means that money can be saved for better components later. Keep this in mind as we pitch in with replies. If you ask the right questions you may be in for quite a nice surprise from even MMGs. It often depends on what you are after in your system...so it helps if you know what that is (and let us know).
Edits: 02/18/15
The HCA-1500A and the 2200 MKII in particular sound fantastic on Maggies.
Opus 33 1/3
F'8
Welcome...
I had the Adcom 5802 with MMG's many moons ago...very decent combo...
Greenlatern, (inmate and big Maggie dude), he has an Emotive along with several other offerings...you can search his Moniker / Emotive and you should see what he thinks...or just PM him...I have not heard any of the Emotive offerings, so I can not comment...
Quite a few inmates use the Parasound A21's I believe...I had the Parasound HCA 2205, it was quite an improvement over the Adcom...
I currently have a Sanders Magtech...that may be a little much for your MMG's and in that next level of price range...$3.5K used...
IMHO, Maggies are what they eat...feed them well and they deliver...I have enjoyed my journey...BUT they cause Upgrade-idest...as you are discovering...
Once again welcome aboard...check out the tweak section, the search function is a great feature and don't be afraid to ask questions...many many knowledgeable inmates...
Thanks
Mark
MarkMan says "Quite a few inmates use the Parasound A21's I believe...I had the Parasound HCA 2205, it was quite an improvement over the Adcom..."
I agree with MarkMan but on a cheaper route than switching everything the big Adcom is a good amp when mated to the right pre-amp. You might want to try a different one.
I have a PAIR of the Parasound A23, the '21s 'little' brother. One per speaker and biamped 'bout fills the bill. A later passive LL crossover will give me as much as 3db greater power than a single A21. AS it sits? Power same as a single A21.
GL uses emo MONOBLOCS on the Bass Panel of the MG20s. This is an absolutely stunning sounding setup. I don't know how much to ascribe to WHAT part of it, but IN SUM, you'd be hard pressed to better this in a real room, IMO.
Too much is never enough
Pix, it would not surprise me, at all. I have the HCA-1000A (A23's previous version, but no MOSFET) driving the tweeters. The mid/bass driver is moved by a HCA-1500A. In the PLLXO bi-amp, they now both work great together to do their neat dog & pony show; quite sweetly.
It was not always so. Since the 1000A came a bit "mal-adjusted" when I bought them both used, the little thing got all my TLC and tweaking devotion. The poor 1500A got no love...left totally stock because it was working well enough (as in "impressive").
Then one day I had no tweaks scheduled but lots of free hours. The "mad-tweaker" in me (lol!) got loose. I decided to have the 1000A show duties on the mid/bass driver. (The Denon AVR took over the tweeter because its impedance is the same, whereas the 1500A would have required changes to the PLLXO to do the tweeter right).
With its new caps and higher bias, the 1000A did a jaw-dropping act on the bass. The dynamics and slam were better still than the (un-modded)1500A did at times. The 1000A only lost its textural integrity and sweetness when driven into the power range that the 1500A commands...and that was still LOUD ENOUGH.
Which means that your A23s could easily be helping drive some stunning sound these days!
The ONLY change I even think about to the amps is to REPLACE the level control with a pair of fixed resistors totaling the 100kohms I'm told the pot is.
Since I run it 'full open' I only need a 100k resistor. But, I don't need all that gain and would not be sorry to have to turn it up a little more for the same level.
Maybe 80k:20K?
I have written to Richard and he tells me that there isn't room for my original idea which was a switchable resistor net.
He also said that (to paraphrase) the sonic consequences should be to the good.
Too much is never enough
Yes, if you need to reduce the input signal, try to use a pair of (quality) resistors as required, per pot position. It pays off if you need to attenuate.
Bear in mind, I did not replace the pots in the 1000A after all. In my case they are always wide open. In that position there is hardly a thing to gain by replacing; the pots are clear at "0". Soldering a simple temporary jumper told the story.]
I just realized that ANY proposed passive LL XO will have a built in drop of maybe 6db or so.
That's all it'll take.
Now, if I could figure out the calculation for my 33k INPUT impedance, I'd go up to RS and start by getting a couple circuit boards and out to fry's where they have the HAKKO 888 solder station for 70$. A real deal.
Too much is never enough
Pix, I am sooo glad your are closer to trying this! I'll see if I have some useful numbers for you. We are talking 1.6QR, right? You may also want to check Neolith's spreadsheet for crossover frequencies and ideas on variations to try later. I'll try to get you to the ballpark. The game should be great but your home runs may be far easier with some sort of acoustic measurements gear. Nothing fancy is needed.
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