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In Reply to: RE: Crown amps posted by pictureguy on February 14, 2015 at 12:51:54
The old Crown was in Terre Haute Ind. This not the same company: the former long defunct after some messy union labor law suits, and prosecution for right wing racist and antisemitic $ contributions. I own the SL2 preamp and the successor to the D150 the straight line150 watt amp. They both still work and the preamp is still in my system. They used great parts. The produced products that were superior to Yamaha separates and the equal of SAE in 1980, for pretty much the same price.
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Our studio, Universal Recording Corporation, in Chicago used DC-300 amps driving Altec A7's all through the 60's. We used these amps because they were on 24/7 for 365 days year after year and never failed which was critical in those years when the studio was booked 7 days a week, 24 hours a day
Alan
Sorry: It is the very same company. I am mistaken in Elkert INd. They did put out a consumer line.
I do not how successful they were in matching demanding loads but a friend used my 1981 amp with Apogee Duetta and got away with it.Even by today' standards the SL2 preamp is not a disgrace with bypasses tone controls etc.(well thought out) Your job sounded fascinating. Cheers UT
I spent 20 years working as a recording engineer and they were the best years of my life.
Alan
Hardly recompense, but you have seemed to joy the hobby immensely and your insight have been most welcome on this board. Your experience must give you an extra dimension on your love of music.
I have always loved music but my recording days taught me the hard work that goes into making a great recording from the artists, producers and engineers.
Alan
Do you have any 'favorite' exemplary recordings in classical, jazz that meet your ideal both analogue and digital.The recordings that I admire are many of the BLU NOte(They used several recording engineers under Gelder) and Many of the TElfunken (1960and 70's) and EMI mono...
Many others come to mind also...Would,take brilliance to give the ambiance of a large concert hall. Please do not feel obliged to answer. UT
I am a classical and film music guy. In film music Shaun Murphy is the best engineer working today. Google his name for a list of recordings he has done . "Glory"is a good example of his work. In classical music Keith Johnson who does all the Reference Recording CD's is great. See "symphonic Dances" by Rachmaninoff. The old Deccas with Kenneth Wilkerson, The Old RCA Living Stereo with Lewis Layton as engineer and the Great Mercuries with Bob Fine are all examples of the engineering I love. If you want to hear an album I did try "Them Changes" by Buddy Miles
Alan
Can anyone explain main differences between all the Crown models/series? I'm also interested on using them for the basses, but there seems to be very many series such as XLS, CDi, CXM, XLC, CTs, DSi, I-Tech, XLi and XTi??? :-0 What would be THE choice for the best possible sound quality for the basses?
I tried to understand the differences from the Crown's pages, but I really just got more and more messed up...
http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers.html
There are series with plain jane class D - with DSP and without DSP low power (and often multichannel) for fixed installations and with fans and without fans.
The i series of amplifier lines use a newer proprietary Crown switching technology and output stage that supposedly has inherently eliminated crossover distortion. Pass the salt please... The macrotech I series appears to be the more refined product line and starts with the 5000 (My linear 5002VZ used to be the top of the high power line) which does 2.5kw/ch @4ohms the top one is the 12000 with the proportional specs. While the linear 5000 was just under $4k street, the new ones take $5k.
The bottom of the i technology line is in the XTI series of PA amps starting with the 1002 500 watts stereo @4 ohms and $500 price tag
The CDi series is of interest for us for low impedance and special voltage demands. I don't think it uses the i tech. It is a bit more expensive than the XTI ones.
The current Com Techs (CTS) are class AB and i tech depending on whether you use the constant voltage or low impedance outputs.
Next up is the i tech HD models which seem not much different from the Macrotech i series.But that the i techs have onboard DSP, while DSP is an add on option for the Macros. The Macros are serious touring amps, and the new ones outdo the old linear Macros according to reviews and field reports. They are built to a higher standard
The basic i tech was the it4000 at 2kw into 4 ohms but now it is the it5000 HD
I don't need any DSP or such, the main point is to have "good enough" sound quality and enough juice for IVa basses. XLS seems to be the most common on all discussion boards etc., and it's really cheap (XLS 2500 around 550$), but should it be good enough? CDi 4000 cost over 3 times that, is it really worth it? Or is there any other good Crown model between those?
The XLS 2500 is rated at a bit under 800W/ch @4 ohms.
That is sufficient for a TIV bass panel for most folks and certainly so if you use a subwoofer for the bottom octave.
I like the tonal balance to be anything but bass shy. I have been trying to mimic the bass balance of my friend's Focal Nova Utopia since I first heard it at a dealer 3 years ago. I was shocked by the natural tonal presentation with what was obviously a bass heavy balance. It was a revelation that having such a tonal balance was "legitimate".
But doing that kind of tonal balance with a Tympani having 85db sensitivity on a good day with wall loading is not as easy as doing it with a 91db sensitive speaker with a giant magnet driving a 13" long throw woofer in a mini fridge sized box with slot loading. I ended up frying some control circuitry in my bass amp with the heat and it is just ready for pick up from the repair lab. I clipped it far more more than once on regular symphonic orchestra pieces not to speak of more demanding fare..
So 2kw/ch is not something that is as outlandish as some folks think.
The other difference is bass quality. The linear MacroTech series gave high quality bass that the XLS series does not. The new MacroTech 5000i was reviewed to have even better bottom octave bass than the olde 5002VZ that I have, but that one goes for $5K, even worse than the $3.6K that the 5002VZ sold for. But now the XTi series has similar specs and costs half as much for a XTi 6002 that can do 2kw/ch @4 ohms..and has a higher power rating into 2ohms for $2k.
A friend has tried a XLS2500 and has been very disappointed with the bass quality compared to the Spectron Musician he uses. That one was holding well against my Crown 5002VZ despite the lower power rating (his evaluation on his speakers - VMPS RM30 - relative to mine with the Crown).
So THE value sweet spot in SQ in the Crown line is the XTI series. For Tympani owners without a subwoofer I would suggest the XTi 4002 and to consider the 6002 if they might want big bass (think Erika Badu or big organs).
Thank you very much Satie! But actually would it be a better deal to get 2 XTi 2002's than one XTi 6002? 6002 gives 2100W in stereo mode and costs 1999$, while 2002 gives 2000W in bridged mode and two of them costs ~1400$.
Another option might be to build Hypex UCD2K's which gives 2500W into 4 ohms, and would cost around 1000$ as a DIY kit. Don't know if it would be any better from SQ point of view, a bit cheaper anyway but needs some work of course.
The Hypex module has potential as Theta demonstrated with its new amps.
I did not notice that the XTI 2002 had similar RMS power readings in bridged mode as the 6002. Good observation. I don't know if it would sound the same or better/worse. But definitely more convenient as two mono amps.
I have to agree that IMHO, the class D Crowns (XLS) aren't bass champs, my old Aragon driving my LS50s gave more bass output. The difference meant I had to remove the port plugs off the speakers when going with the Crowns. Also my setup is a sat/sub deal, so bass from those amps are not a priority. Others on the Audio Circle Crown tour have stated the same.
One other thing, the Crowns XLS amps have non-defeatable DSP processing, so if this is an issue, beware. To some this would be a deal breaker. Thinking the XTis don't have this issue, maybe defeatable? I still think they are a great sounding amp, for the money. But Maggies are finicky when it comes to amp matching, so YMMV.
Thanks Satie!
But how do all there compare to the XLS, which seems to be the most common (or at least most talked about) of the Crown's, at least for the bass purposes? Is there any reason to get something else than XLS, if it's used for Maggies basses?
I would want the better performance on the Tympani bass panels that one of the i series can provide, you are not paying for nothing. I would consider at least the XTI series for on board DSP and high current and damping factor.Considering my own experience and choices I would probably have gone today with the itech 5000 HD model or the now discontinued i tech 4000 HD or the 6000 on the used market. I would take them for the onboard 24/192 DSP that would have been extra on the MA i series. Note that the linear Macro Tech amps are still going for about the same price today on the used market as they did 10 years ago when the product was still current and the technology not "obsolete". . While I do think the 5002VZ was somewhat overkill,for driving the T-IV basses,, having actually clipped it more than once and gone to thermal overload I can justify taking it for its higher current delivery and more rugged build.
Edits: 02/17/15
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