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In Reply to: RE: update on the Al Sekela tweak posted by Davey on January 31, 2015 at 16:23:01
Well, Davey, here is one of many possibilities. You may be partially "blind". And, by the way, this statement is not related just to the effect of the chokes. Even without them, there are things that you seem to not perceive.
So, the real big issue may be a perceptual handicap that prevents you from "seeing" a much more ample scope of sound, and to derive the resulting extra music enjoyment. You can't even accept that this larger, sweeter ear-scape world exists. We all have some kind of limitation but yours may have driven you into denial. In the process, you mask it with your overstated display of engineering imperatives. Most of us believe in science, and enjoy the music.
Yes, you are dissing Al personally, or trying to. As veiled an attempt as it may be, it is not invisible. You are also implying that this thread is a false. In fact, you are saying that many of us may be deluded.
OTOH, I am saying that, more likely, you are somewhat hearing or perceptually impaired. If you can't hear some stuff, there is no shame in admitting it; unless hypocrisy comes into play. Pretending that just the rules of engineering must apply is, among other things, an attempt to reduce us all to your own limitations.
Follow Ups:
More silly rhetoric and inane straw man arguments.My ears are just as good as yours....but when I hear something that shouldn't be there.....or don't hear something that should be there.....I investigate. When I hear something I expected to hear I still investigate....to make sure I haven't been fooled.
Subjective evaluation doesn't trump everything else.
Dave.
Edits: 02/01/15
Davey, your "my ears are just as good as yours" sincerely would make me extremely happy for you, even if perception is more than just hearing. However, the sticking point in my mind for years has been that you never allude to core music attributes. I am talking many things that I miss from someone whose system must have been tweaked using great engineering.
Where's the resulting emotional delight about so many things, the moving intricacies, the textural flavors, the soundstage spread detail or the positioning of 3D items on it, and much more? Actually, you hardly ever mention how your system sounds, and then do so on rather dry terms. More to the point, you never mention this kind of thing about ANY music source.
Sure, it is easy to hide it with comments like "Subjective evaluation doesn't trump everything else." Well, you even fail to post an inkling of what your system really measures like acoustically. Imperfect as this would be, it would still be usefully indicative. For someone so averse to subjectivity, this could have provided a "good enough" reference point.
That said, subjectivity -- to me -- is still a very valid value for pragmatic degrees of evaluation. Even on a half-well setup system with Maggies, the perception of recording attributes can be a superb and emotionally moving experience. At times, one may even want to tell others about it. There's nothing wrong with its subjective source, however. By and large, it may be "repeatable subjectivity", shared by many people.
This is better observed in exactly the same place, with the same gear and program material. Yet, it is amazing how despite the universe of variability out there, it all still yields a core set of "enjoyable attributes", perceived in a similar fashion.
Oh, you can be sure I REALLY investigate beyond what I myself hear or perceive; and it is not just by measuring whenever I can.
It is a great experience to see how, for example, 3D imaging can be perceived by friends. You ask them "where is this located"? Most will point to a specific location in width and depth. The location in space will easily vary from person to person but not usually by much. Amusingly, they sometimes are shocked by pointing OUTSIDE the room. This actually happens often enough. It certainly is not my imagination. What would you call it, then? Mass delusion?
Well, additional proof of the validity of this 3D thing comes from other sources; those who DO NOT perceive any localized 3D aural experience. Invariably, so far, they have a lost significant hearing in one ear. [They do enjoy other aspects of the music but "imaging" of any kind and "soundstage" are concepts lost to them.]
This 3D imaging feature is usually enhanced by using the chokes. Since my MMGs have the PLLXO biamp, the bass driver has no xover inductor. Thus, long ago I added chokes to the bass drivers for a better effect. Perhaps, even hopefully, this could help you perceive a stronger effect. You may want to add the 2nd set of chokes, since you biamp as well.
Let me try and simplify this for you.
Here's a bit of Davey audio philosophy for you. "Just because something sounds good, doesn't mean it's working right." (Think about that for a while.) :)
Is that a concept you can wrap your head around?I'm actually laughing as I type this because on this forum fellas like Satie always accuse me of being the hard-nosed objectivist who won't consider off-the-wall ideas. Yet, in this instance, I'm the open-minded one (considering all aspects) and other members have their heads in the sand. How funny is that?
You have to turn loose of this romantic notion that you're placing on your equipment and think about it more objectively. Sure, you embrace the emotional aspect your audio system can evoke......and subjective evaluation certainly has its place too......but always keep real-world common sense operating in your mind as well.
You've heard me say this before, but I'll say it again. Subjective evaluation is, by definition, incontrovertible. You will never hear me say that you're not hearing what you're hearing. You've mentioned a couple of times that I've said that....I absolutely have not! You HAVE to stop with the straw man arguments. Or if not, consider venturing into politics. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
Edits: 02/01/15 02/01/15
Davey, Davey, you are forgetting things or conveniently ignoring them.
Being brought up in a music environment, "more enjoyable" and "sounding good" means "more correct" for me. So, when I get emotional about what's playing, it is largely because the beauty comes from a more real reproduction of acoustic instruments and voices. Even some MMGs can also convey a whole world of additional, delightful, real musical information. This includes gorgeously realistic imaging and a convincingly ample soundstage, if in the recording.
Sharing with others the ideas that make this more real beauty possible, is what drives many of us here, including Al Sekela when he was around.
Yet, you can't do this; the words "beauty" and "beautiful" are simply not in your vocabulary about the music itself, much less "delight". It is clear that you can't get these concepts tied to music. If you did, we would have "heard" you saying it loudly. OTOH, you might be inclined to call a circuit "beautiful", I suspect. They are different things, though.
Thus, you can't pass judgement on music correctness, at least not in its fuller scope, whether subjective, objective or otherwise.
But, yes sir, you can do conventional circuits better than most of us, there's that.
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