Planar Speaker Asylum

Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share your ideas and experiences.

Planar Speaker Asylum

Dolby ATMOS and planars?

68.100.167.7

I was just wondering what inmates experience has been with ATMOS or even DTS/DD height channels when used with main speakers that are planars?
In general the planar speakers tend to be a tall line source which already generates a fair amount of sound which is floor to almost ceiling. Would ATMOS ceiling or DTS/DD height channels add much to the movie experience?

Edits: 01/10/15

Follow Ups:

RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - dumpingground 06:26:25 01/13/15 (0)
Thank you all for the lively conversation. Much to consider and given the newness of ATMOS much unknown.

With the size of most planars, it is hard to consider in a normal sized room the idea of adding even more speakers and may cause owners to mix planar and non-planar speakers causing even more unknowns.
RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - BigguyinATL 14:13:52 01/12/15 (0)
with ATMOS - localization is important so a "height" speaker could easily be a MMG-W in a horizontal configuration angled toward the listening seat.

I actually had my system set up for 6.1 surround with the single MMG-w Serving at the center rear many years ago. it sound pretty good - though I'd probably use a pair back there if I were to make permanent. Right now I use the MMG'w as my sides...
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - methylmarty 11:48:52 01/10/15 (7)
Without having heard either technology, I would have to say that Atmos with it's discrete overheads seems more preferable to extrapolated height channels in a theater environment, and all reviews I have read of any consequence have stated similar empirical findings.

That being said, my understanding is that since Atmos uses object-based mixing rather than a traditional channel-based processing, the dispersion of dipoles is said to muddy up the image. Since you have a reflected backwave, the increased spaciousness that often comes with dipoles diffuses what will otherwise be a pinpoint 3d image. This should not be as big a deal for extrapolated height channels, as they use a standard mixing process. It's proprietary, so I can only speculate that height channels take summed information from all speakers and extrapolate that to height. Whatever it does, it can probably do with a dipole.

In my experience using an all-Maggie 7.2 HT for Dolby True and DTS Master audio, the imaging is spectacular; well beyond traditional dynamic-driver point-source setups I have heard. I think it would do fine with Atmos with one exception: matching an in-ceiling speaker (which obviously cannot be dipole) to the rest of my dipole setup. Since I believe most of my surround experience is due to the planar drivers rather than the dipole nature of the speakers, my solution is to keep my dipoles for the LCR (no way in hell I am losing my Tympani IVas) and replace my surrounds with an in-wall ribbon such as offered by BG that I can easily match with in-ceiling ribbons from the same brand. You can see a (sort of derailed) discussion in my other recent thread, I think the title has something to do with "BG Sunfire Magnepan surrounds" or something.

Of course this is all theoretical as I have not personally heard Atmos or extrapolated heights, so take it for what it is.
- RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - josh358 18:54:40 01/10/15 (6)
  Thanks, interesting info on Atmos and planars.
  
  Of course, you *can* attenuate the backwave if you want to by adding absorption. A dipole actually spills less acoustical energy into the room than an omni, which is one of the reasons they need less acoustical treatment. So it should be easy to suppress that rear-directed artificial reverb, though you could end up with a sound that's too dry for two-channel stereo.
  - RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - methylmarty 10:20:41 01/11/15 (5)
    Josh,
    
    Excellent point. With proper rear-wave absorption dipoles should work fine in an Atmos setup. I still wonder though, how the object-based mixing will translate to a line source. It shouldn't matter if the speaker is properly vertically oriented, but a horizontally ceiling mounted setup such as mine might prove troublesome. Point sources shouldn't have this problem.
    - RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - josh358 10:30:51 01/11/15 (4)
      I wonder how it will translate to a line source too. A point source sounds like it's originating at the height of the speaker. A full-height line source sounds like it's originating at the height indicated by the floor bounce in the original recording. So the effect could be erratic. I'm guessing though that with horizontal line sources like yours, it will sound like it's coming from the height of the speaker, perhaps with some slight impairment to localization owing to the lateral smearing of pinna/head/body effects. Also, in my experience, MMG's behave like dipole point rather than full-length line sources when it comes to localization -- the sound seems to emanate from half way up the diaphragm, or a compromise between that and the first reflection point in the rear if the speakers are at an angle.
      
      Of course, you never really know what's going to happen until you try it. :-)
      - RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - JBen 23:36:22 01/13/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? posted by josh358 on January 11, 2015 at 10:30:51
        
        Hey Josh, great to see you around here again! (I am mostly on "vacation".)
        Dumpingground, I did spend some good hours with Atmos systems in Dec. One of them was factory calibrated. All were on box speakers. Neither my friends nor I were all that impressed. Hype is a bitch, I guess.
        Height information can be replicated with planars to a large extent. One of my friends commented how my (now raised MMGs) provide a better impression of frontal height than the multi-speaker factory calibrated Atmos we heard. Of course, things are never so simple but I suspect that with a full set of tall-enough Maggies, something like Atmos itself could work great for movies, with 7.x speakers surround; without even needing the extra surrounds.
        I am more intrigued by what DTS:X could bring. DTS and my MMGs have always worked great (more so for movies). Furthermore, DTS-HD (Master) on musical (Blu-ray) programming is seriously enjoyable stuff. So, perhaps, DTS:X follows the progressive tradition. Anyway, I am in no hurry...cranking the crank on my old receiver is still fun : - ))
        
        Edits: 01/14/15
        
        RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - josh358 17:10:30 01/16/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? posted by JBen on January 13, 2015 at 23:36:22
        
        Hey, JBen! Good to hear from you.
        
        Disappointing about Atmos -- I haven't had a chance to hear it yet. Vertical spread from point sources is a bit problematic because there's no phantom image as there is laterally. So basically the sound seems to be coming from the height of the speakers, which with a single height channel means only two places. And the height pan presumably wouldn't work with a line source, since full-height line sources don't so much reproduce height as not add their own height signature and let the floor bounce do the trick. From the perspective of the comb filtering stuff that's going on in the pinna, they're a source at an infinite distance, as far as height detection is concerned (as far as width is concerned, they're a source right where the speakers are!). A smaller line source probably acts more like a point source, Davey meaxured the field of his MMG's as 1/R^2 and it seems to me that the apparent height of the sound in my MMG's was the vertical center point of the diaphragm.
        
        If you used more than one voice coil vertically, you could reproduce both the center and height channel in a planar magnetic. Bass could still use the entire diaphragm, or its usual resonant sections (since different frequencies emanate from different heights).
      - RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - methylmarty 10:43:10 01/11/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? posted by josh358 on January 11, 2015 at 10:30:51
        
        Then try it I shall. Of course with my choice of height speakers costing $1200 (BG PD-8CI) and Atmos processor costing $4000 (Marantz AV8802), I don't see this happening any time soon. I hope it won't be long till we see at least the processor on the used market.
        
        RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? - josh358 17:21:38 01/16/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Dolby ATMOS and planars? posted by methylmarty on January 11, 2015 at 10:43:10
        
        Plus I'm sure the prices will come down.
        
        Looked again at the prospect for surround in my room, and it's pretty hopeless. Just nowhere to put anything, not anything planar and dipolar and comparable to a true ribbon, anyway. So it may end up being the Mini Maggies, I don't have room for a couch at my listening position so I could just put one on either side of the listening seat. Another possibility would be something like Neo-10's and a Raal, but when would I ever have time to build that? The on-walls just wouldn't work, no way to mount them symmetrically.

Post a Followup:

FAQ

Post a Message!

Forgot Password?

Moniker (Username):
Password (Optional):
	Remember my Moniker & Password (What's this?) Eat Me
E-Mail (Optional):
Subject:

Message:	(Posts are subject to Content Rules)

Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:
Optional Image URL:
Upload Image:
E-mail Replies:	Automagically notify you when someone responds.

To view your new posting or follow-up, click on the RELOAD or REFRESH button on your browser.

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

VH Audio