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In Reply to: RE: New side and rear surrounds - Magnepan, BG, Sunfire? posted by methylmarty on January 09, 2015 at 18:53:27
LOL, yeah, I wouldn't mind that setup either!
Why do the surrounds have to go below 100 Hz? In a typical room, sound is pretty non-directional below 80 or 100 Hz. You could just set them to "small" and use the Tympani woofers up front. That would get more clean level out of our MMG's as well.
Follow Ups:
Josh,
You are probably right, and I admittedly don't know how much bass is routed to surrounds. I would have to say that it is more important for multichannel music than for movies.
I was adamant on this setup because for me bass levels are localizable down to just above 60hz. Although now that I think about it, this could be due to my room or perhaps even second order harmonics from the subs or something. Either way, I am wary of a "disembodiment of sounds", or whatever would better describe it.
I've been meaning to try the "large" front method. However, my subs are run off the processor's LFE channel, and I do not like the way the mains and subs blend when set on large. So I would first have to run the mains off the high-pass filters in the subs, and I have my doubts that this won't color the sound in some way.
I'm guessing not just second harmonic from the subs, but the fact that even a 24 dB/octave crossover allows significant higher frequency energy through. That's based mostly on studies that find that people can't localize sound below 80-100 Hz in listening rooms. Of course, it's always possible that you or our room and setup are outliers . . .
Anyway, I see your problem. Wouldn't the sub's crossover do less violence to the sound than the subs themselves? I'd want to cross the subs over as low as possible to get the extension and SPL I was after without too much smearing.
Josh,
You have an excellent point, as usual. Damnit, now I have to try this. After I verify the crossover slopes of the processor and subwoofer, of course. And then I will need new interconnects to match the Morrows I use on the main channels... This may take a while.
Maybe just try it with whatever cable you have lying around first? I think the difference will be obvious pro or con, and then if you like the results you can get the new ones.
I guess I could do that, although the best cable I have lying around is some Emotiva ICs that I bought while testing the XPA-2 (which ultimately could not drive my Tympani). I'll have to reconfigure though as they are too short for my setup. This may take a while.
I just remembered that I did try something similar once: Between my failed MGII/CC2 attempt and my acquisition of a DWM, I ran the processor's center output through the line-level inputs on the subs and used the subs' crossovers to cover below 160hz where the CC2 rolls off. It sounded... really bad. But I don;t thin it effected the CC2. (The DWM combined with a Maggie center is magical, by the way.)
What happened with your XPA-2 and your Tympanis? I was going to use mine for bass duty, and temporarily full range (since I don't want to deal with bi amping until I have a better idea of how I'm going to position the speakers).
Josh,
I'm not sure what exactly happened with my XPA2 on the Tympani. It was over two years ago, but from what I remember the amp would just cut out completely during dynamic transients in classical music and seemingly randomly in all the other over-compressed nonsense I listen to. I believe it went into a protection mode. I couldn't even get it close to reference level.
I called Emotiva and talked to the main guy (can't remember his name at the moment) and it seemed that he wasn't surprised that the amp was having problems with the tympani. After discussing possibilities for a while, like a jackass I just packed it up and sent it back instead of investigating further. As I saw it, I was only interested in driving the Tympani and didn't even think of testing it on one of the 20 other pairs of speakers I have sitting around.
Possibilities as I see it are as follows:
1) The particular amp may just have been a defective unit.
2) I found the midrange fuses on the TIVas to be blown. I'm not sure if this was a cause or effect.
3) This was prior to my installing two dedicated 20a lines. I was previously running the XPA2 on a 15a shared line. However, nothing else (including my dual 1800w subs) has this problem on that line.
Anyway, I now use a Sunfire Signature 600 to drive them and ultimately like the sound better. The Emotiva, while it worked, had a more "forward" and grainy quality to the sound which induced listening fatigue quickly. The Sunfire on voltage source has all the punch but with a smoother overall presentation. The Sunfire on current source sounded close to the more laid back B&K sound that I had been used to.
Now if I had the funds, I might biamp with XPA1 gen2s on the bass and a Pass Labs x250 for the top end. I assume by your post that you agree with my assessment that Emotivas belong on the bass only if possible.
Well, the Emotiva sounded good on my MMG's, but I heard that grain too, which is why I thought I'd put them to work on the Tympani bass where it wouldn't be audible. But really, if I were buying a bass amp from scratch, I'd go with Class D. Class D is ideal for bass, since as with using the Emotiva there you don't hear the high frequency problems.
Of course if my XPA-2 acts like yours with the Tympanis, I'll probably just sell it . . .
I do want to clarify that no one should take my experience as declaring the XPA2 or any Emotiva product bad-sounding. I believe they sound very good, especially for the price; that being said in this hobby one often gets what one pays for (beyond that of course is a steep slope of diminishing returns and products based more on aesthetic than performance). In other words, it's no Pass/Krell/Bryston beater.
I have actually been interested in the B&O ICE amps for bass duty for a while now. Having not actually heard them, I base my curiosity on their utilization in the bass sections of the highly regarded Legacy Audio line. I understand they work around some of the limitations of class D.
Agree completely about the XPA-2. It's a good sounding amp and amazing for the money -- if it hadn't been, I would have sent it back. But that subtle, fine upper midrange graininess/bipolar sound bothers me. I guess it's a case of having tasted the Kool Aid . . . I'd be happy to live with and recommend the Emotiva but once you've lived with liquid mids and highs you're always going to want it. And I imagine it would be even more apparent with the true ribbon than it was with my MMG's.
Well if I could try any single amp at this point it would probably be the Magtech but last I checked they were kind of pricey and ultimately I'm planning to tri amp, so Class D bass plus two smaller, more liquid amps makes sense.
Have you considered a Class D pro amp for the bass? That's what Satie did. Really, any reasonable Class D amp is going to sound great on bass duty, since the Class D problems occur at higher frequencies. So you don't need something super refined if you aren't running full range. Not that an ICEpower amp wouldn't be a good choice.
I have a few Crown and Hafler pro amps in my studio that I could test out. Problem right now is with the rest of the gear - crossovers and such. I have an XO-1, but eh... not a true crossover, I'd rather do it right. Besides, the only amp I have for the top end is my Sunfire. I guess I'm just too lazy and/or broke to play with biamping right now. But I will, eventually.
Yeah, the crossover is a problem. I'm also a big believer in bass EQ, you can only do so much with position and trapping, even with dipoles. Actually you can get good digital xover/EQ really cheaply, the problem is the quality of the DAC's . . .
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