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In Reply to: RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses? posted by AkuAnkka on December 16, 2014 at 00:06:13
I do not remember. As far as I know, most Class D are still failing in blind listening tests. (The Swedish Before/After testing method.) Many of them are good for lower frequencies, below circa 2 kHz. Somebody even reported problems with bass, some BeO ICE-Module.
Follow Ups:
Yeah well I have tried IcePower and Lyndorf's TDAI with Maggies, and they both were really bad for my taste. Sounded harsh, "thin" and lifeless for me. Then I tried UCD400 and it was really good for the whole range. Way better than Creek or Classe that I had, pretty much on par with the great Luxman L505 which was my previous amp.I have not heard NCore yet, but regarding all reports, it is still way better than UCD at least for the higher range.
Edits: 12/16/14
What are the switching frequencies of the Hypex UCD and the NCore?
UCD: "The switching frequency is put at 400kHz". http://www.hypex.nl/technology/ucd.html
NCore: I'm not sure, but if I understood correctly, it is changing: http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore%20wp.pdf
They imply that they have not changed the switching frequency for full duty cycle. So that leaves it where it was at 400khz.
Aaa OK.
What does that switching frequency matter after all?
Resolution.
Like the other PWM, DSD.
We just ain't there yet.
Have you Satie heard UCD or NCore? Any comments on overall sound?
And; what would you say is the best power amp for mids & highs, lets say below 1000€/$ per stereo pair?
I intend to seek out an Ncore, hence the interest. But I was disappointed that they had not increased their switching freq. Others have I am told.
What you want for the top end - It largely depends on your listening volumes.
I like tubes on top so there are only older amps to use in that price bracket. Hybrids are interesting too. Davy (UK) likes the Audio Innovations 500 integrated and the 1000 power amps. The Art Audio Concerto (Mk II in particular).
The next favorite are JFet MOSFET amps. Pass designs being the unrealistic favorite, then the Classe DR amps DR 9 model 10, but these are really old now. A cheap option with close performance at the top end - but very dependent on their power cables and power conditioning are the Fosgate Audionics amps Fosgate 4000 series, the later FAA 1000.5 multichannel amps. Also in this MOSFET family are the NAD 208 - packed with power and well balanced. Other amps that are likely less likely to be found in EU are Hafler 9300/9500 and later models.
Small class A amps at about 50W @8 ohms. Like the Krell KSA 50 and Forte 4. I am sure there are more domestic models built like they are.
A friend from a swedish forum shared his experience of some power amplifiers.
Two bridged Anaview ALC240 were far better than Hypex Ncore. Both were by a great margin surpassed by Pass Son of Zen (Class A 2x30 W).
Next chapter, only bass duties. ICE-Power 500 with a conventional power supply, no fun at all. A "rubbery" sort of bass, like rumbling. An old Harman Kardon Ctation 16 did this far better, powerful and with fine resolution.
Most impressive for bass, the Hypex UCD2k but no fun for fullrange...
He is now using Anaview ALC1000 for basses.
Best Class D amp so far according to him, Marten M-Amp (also from Anaview). Expensive...
Anaview = Abletec
I generally agree with your friend's observations so far as my experience with class D. I only used mine to 5khz and no more. It was not even passable as a tweeter amp.
I don't know what these folks are waiting for. If people are showing a preference for DSD128 over DSD64 then surely the industry can't sit on 400 and 500 khz switching rates and act as if being at 1/7-1/5th the rate of PWM of DSD is even in the ballpark of "enough".
I am happy to use the better powerful ones for bass, and the better lower power ones for mids, but there are yet no candidates for tweeter duties so far as I know. I was hoping a low power Ncore would be able to do it due to so many good reviews. But the switching rate info is not encouraging.
Ok, so maybe a good solution might be UCD2K for basses, NCore for mids, and some nice tubeamp for the highs... But; which tubeamp can handle the 2-3 ohm resistance of the ribbon?
I also think that it is totally wrong to talk about D- class amps as a whole. There are so many different kind of an implementations with different kind of sound preferences, that you should not put them together. UCD for example sounds *totally* different than IcePower or TDAI, on all frequencies in my opinion. I find UCD to be quite tube-like, with a smooth and musical sound, but with huge power reserve and punchy basses. Oh, just to be exact, I have heard only UCH700HG + HxR, not any lower end models.
Amplifiers make no sound- systems make sound. And the interaction between amp and the rest of the system can vary greatly from system to system. Add to that variance the wide disparity in personal preferences and you will come to understand why there is no "best amp" and why there are supporters and detractors for all amps and amp topologies.There are undoubtedly class a, class ab, and class d amps that would work to your satisfaction in your system. Take the generalizations from others regarding these topologies with a grain of salt as there are many differences within each just like all Hondas or Chevies are not the same.
When it comes to Hypex ncore, many people have preferred it to Pass and other well known class a amps. Many have also preferred it to well known tube amps like BAT, AR, etc. And many have preferred it to other class d amps like those using Ice or Tripath modules. Some have preferred it to the newer modules by Anaview and Pascal. Of course, others haven't.
Right now on audiocircle, many are touting the Crown XLS class d amp series as sounding as good as amps at 10X the price-they are very cheap (around $400!). I haven't heard them but many are very excited about them. For the price, maybe worth a listen...
This underscores the simply truth that only YOU can know what will work best in your system. The most objective, non-biased advice you can get is to try as many amps as you can until you find "the one". You wouldn't let someone tell you what music is "best", an amp or any other component is no different...
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 12/17/14
Ljudtekniska Sällskapet (Swedish Audio Society) uses blind listening tests, comparing the input signal with the output signal under load (minus gain). Very small differencies can be detected if you have a high resolution audio chain. Still, no Class D amp has passed without signal degradation. Lower frequencies is less of a problem but higher ones are. This is not a listening test isolation the amplifers contribution not how it fits in a chain of audio devices. So far just a few power amplifiers have passed without being detected.
Tests mean nothing when it comes to personal preferences. Some people clearly prefer various class d amps to various other class a or class ab amps. It is subjective, ultimately.
try it! you know you want to!
That is true. If you are looking for a neutral/transparant piece of equipment as some us are, it is different. If you want a colouring amplifier you will have to try many of them with your equipment. Sometimes some kind of tone controls are better/cheaper for adjusting to a prefered tonal colour etc.
Has it occurred to you that what you think sounds neutral/transparent may not sound so to someone else?
try it! you know you want to!
Neutral is not transparent.
You can have a "warm" sounding component that is very transparent. You can have a "neutral" sounding component that is not at all transparent.
Neutral relates to freq domain. Meaning flat FR and preserving flat FR at different output levels.
Transparent relates to transient detail and tonal (harmonic structure) and texture aspects. But not necessarily so much to FR response being flat. E.G. an equalizer or tone control can be "transparent".
Good clarification Satie!
How would you describe your listening experiences with the UCD? Which model was it? And with what equipment?
I have not had the chance to hear an up to date UcD and did not hear the early one I came across at any conditions to pass any sort of judgement.
I was interested in trying an Ncore amp till I saw the paper you linked describing how it works and implying that the sampling rate was not increased. Now I am (much) less interested.
I have a modified Nuforce amp that I used for midrange duties for a while but have "retired" it a few years back and one of them is broken at the moment awaiting repair at Nuforce (2nd time now). Very neutral transparent through the mids, great dynamics, slight grain in the highs increases the higher up the freq of the music and harmonics goes. Resolution is not really there - the difference between digital and vinyl is much reduced indicating that it is not as transparent as it seems through the mids.
I had one of the Crown XLS for 1 day. Need I say more?
"I had one of the Crown XLS for 1 day. Need I say more?"
Many on audiocircle are having a much different experience. That shows how subjective audio can be.
I haven't heard it so I can not comment-not that anyone's opinion really matters. It all comes down to personal preference.
For the price, it is hard not to give it a listen.
try it! you know you want to!
I know about it, that is why I tried it in the first place.
Well for me the first word that comes into my mind about Hypex is actually "neutral". I've heard quite a few amps, and one the best was my latest Luxman L505. Even though Hypex UCD costs only about 1/5 of it, I thought that it was on par with the sound quality. Not exactly the same, but pretty much as good as Luxman, both being musical but also very neutral with acoustic music.
But hey, can anyone give answer on this; which tubeamp can handle the 2-3 ohm resistance of the ribbon?
Tube amps for 2 ohms: Most of the KR audio amps. Some of the Beards, Audio Innovations has 2 ohm taps on some versions of the model 1000. And there are others. Besides you can put an autoformer between the amp and the load.
I appreciate the L505 and unless your source is restricted to redbook digital or entry level vinyl you are likely to not lose much in going for an Ncore or Wyred 4 Sound, or Bel Canto class D amps, or Nuforce whatever you want to call their amp type. It also depends on your speaker. My Vandy 2C would never have shown up the difference. My JBL Centuries would never have shown it either. With the NS1000 berilium tweeeters I put in them they definitely did show up such differences. E.G. I bought a Rotel Pre and Power amp and borrowed the integrated from the same series. I kept the integrated and returned the separates since I could not find an interconnect that made them work better than the integrated. The dealer suggested an interconnect that cost nearly as much as the power amp, I didn't even try it.
The designer of both the UcD and ncore has said repeatedly that his priority and design goal is neutrality-that the amp should have no sound of its own. The ncore is brutally revealing; what many have thought were flaws with the ncore are in fact issues upstream. Some prefer a more "musical" amp.
try it! you know you want to!
Obviously some people are impervious to some aspects of audio performance, while some are hypersensitive to some aspects.
That is why I don't read the reviews for whether the device tested sounds better or worse than another or "real music" but only to the description of how it altered particular aspects of audio performance.
Crown has actually approached the issue of low switching rates and have a juxtaposed switching scheme technology for some of their class d amp series. So I would be more inclined to expect them to perform well.
That said, the main thing that audiophiles do badly is match power to speaker loads and sensitivity. Thus the amp that was exquisite with a Klipschorn is a mess of distortion on a Vandersteen. Many have tried underpowered amps that reviewed well to push their lead diaphragm infinite phase speakers. Then they pick up a cheap well designed pro amp and are blown away by the performance. It was the first time they had enough power on their speakers.
So I read the reports carefully to weed out equipment mismatches, serious weaknesses in the signal path. Some reviews and shootouts reveal more about strengths and weaknesses of other components in the system. One review convinced me to buy a component because the reviewer subsequently reviewed something else and was unaware that he ran the analog output through an AD/DA loop. I bought the HTP he was using.
Since I am triamping I get to test each amp that comes through on each role (assuming it is safe to do so) and have some idea of where the amp falters or outperforms or simply doesn't match the others.
I have not done well with a crown XLS or Nuforce amp on the tweeters, the grain and loss of resolution is obvious. Mids did well with the Nuforce, less so with the XLS - unless I took down the crossover below 5khz. I returned it to guitar center the next day (it was used on stage and looked it so I was not worried about breakin).
I prefer how the linear Crown Macrotechs do bass over the the XLS I tried. I use a Crown 5002VZ for the bass.
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