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In Reply to: RE: Maggie Deal posted by Tubo on December 14, 2014 at 08:58:29
Thanks for the responses. Clarification: My 3a's are used. I sent them back to Magnepan along with the crossovers for complete refurbishing, new socks, available upgrades etc and then never opened them when I got them back. They've been in the boxes from Magnepan in my spare room for about ten years. They have sealing straps and the invoice for the re-furb will be in the box when opened. FWIW, the refurbishing cost me more than $650.00 with shipping. My question is should I sell my 3a's and pay the additional to own the 3.6's or just keep a pristine pair of 3a's.
Follow Ups:
When did you do the repair?
In your situation, if storage conditions were good and the repair within the last 8-9 years you are likely to be better off with the remaining lifespan of the 3a and know that it is better balanced than the 3.3 and 3.5. If bass is important to you then the 3.6 will be slightly disappointing. If you want the more refined and detailed sound, the 3.6 will be better. The tweeter on the 3a varies between two of them, the "3" ohm one and the "2" ohm one. They are not quite as good as the newer tweeter, but only subtly different.
I have 3.3s and wonder what you mean by balance. It did take me a lot of effort to get them to sound their best, but it's mostly an active 2-way xover which has a higher crossover point than factory and putting a resistor in series w/ the Tweeter.
Thanks.
The 3.3 have a U shaped FR from middle of the midrange to the lower treble and then have a gradually elevated upper end lower mids but not quite down to midbass. By tamping down the tweeter and raising the XO up in freq. you undid the U shaped FR. You rebalanced the speaker.
The real solution is to redo the internal XO to the prior IIIa values with perhaps a few tweaks. Davy (UK) is trying this out on and off and should have useful values for a safe and useful redo of this XO. He has done some work he reported on a few years back about 1st order slope XOs, but the drivers are not entirely happy with that, so playback volumes become limited. When he is done these new values should allow full volume and solve the upper mid- low treble dip. I don't know when he will be done.
Thanks to all especially Satie for your thoughtful inputs. I called Magnepan and actually spoke to Wendell Diller. They have a company policy of not advising or comparing speakers and he did adhere to that policy. However, he did note that with my speakers I knew what I had and with used ones I was risking needing to send them back for R&R.So what exactly do I have? I found my payment info. Lo and behold, I'd had them rebuilt and returned to me in 2007!!! So not ten years ago, only seven. And the repairs? From Magnepan's records, they did;
"A complete stip and rewire of both drivers (all new wires on the mylar), installed 2 new ribbon tweeters and 2 new fabric covers, replaced a propeller nut for a foot bolt, and checked the cross over box - good"
So, I decided to keep my 3a's. They just are too good to get rid of. Now I need to decide what electronics to use. I have quite a few pieces I've accumulated over the years. All Solid State? All Vacuum Tube? Tube pre-amp and solid state power amp? Bi-amp? Which turntable? Which cartridge? Decisions decisions.
Thanks again for all the input.
Edits: 12/15/14
Tubes or Class "A" on the Mids/Highs, solid state on the bass panel.
I would concur. Active bi-amp is the way to go with a set of IIIas. That is what I have.
Definitely bi-amp, as Satie implied.
I think that Maggies like a smooth and warm set up (no Oversampling DACs).
Generally, I like tube power on top and high damping factor SS for the bass. Preamp - tubes if it is capable of tight bass and sufficient top end extension to make the most of the ribbon.
What do you have in your "inventory"?
Solid state I'd use a DB Systems pre-amp and a QUAD 909 power amp. For tubes, I have a Conrad Johnson pre-amp and a pair of Vandersteen (?) fully modified Dynaco MK III Mono-Blocks. I also have a Hafler DH 100 power amp, a dynaco PAT-5 pre-amp, and a PAS2 tube pre-amp. Also on the shelves are Denon and Marantz CD players, an Onkyo TX 4055 tuner, a just refurbished Harmon Kardon Rabco ST-5 with a high output Ortofon MC cartridge, a dynamic range expander, spare Sure V-15 Type V and Audio Technica AT 24 cartridges, several sets of KEF C55's, a pair of infinity 3500's, Koss electrostatic headphones, and, drum roll please, ............
A last generation (single carbon fiber arm) Infinity Black Widow tone-arm that is still in the box, never unpacked, never installed, and a Micro Seiki 51 belt drive turntable with rosewood base never used, tone-arm board still un-cut. Plus other various bits & pieces.
The Dyna III can do your top if you biamp (I have one too), but if you triamp you will need either a resistor or a spelz autoformer in order to drive the tweeter alone. It should be able to drive the midrange alone.
The Quad 909 should do well for the bass panel.
The CJ preamp is probably a good choice for the top, and the Dyna PAS 2 should get updated thoroughly either by Tutay or another experienced modster. Van Alstyne has an update kit for the PAS 2 if you want to DIY.
I would put the black widow on the Micro table and the AT24 on the arm assuming you have a line contact stylus on the AT24. You can get a an SAS stylus from Jico in Japan for The V15 if you don't have an intact stylus. It is a very good cartridge, and you can bypass the phono input and output connectors on the PAS2 and hard wire them to your interconnects if your PAS 2 is in working order. The old connectors fuzz things up.
What!!!! No love for my DB Systems Pre-Amp????
When I was in the business (shortly after mono records were phased out) I was associated with a regional chain. THE solid state pre-amp was the Mark Levinson. Quiet, detailed, and pricey. Along comes this guy Dave Hadaway from New Hampshire with a hand made preamp in a little silver aluminum hobby box and BOOM!!! All the guys in all the stores lusted after one. Dave went into production and that is the DB Systems Pre-Amp. It held up very well to the Levenson and the Audio Research stuff and was a bargain at the price. It was quite the item. Dave still makes them (along with power amps and switches and MC Pre Pre Amps and such up in NH.
In order to by-amp, I'd need the XO-1 crossover which I don't have. I also would want to know the phase relationship of the dissimilar amps as well as their gain. Plus the MK III's would limit the dynamic range due to their lower power output. Since the high frequency amp drives the tweeter and mid-range from 200 hz up, its wide bandpass compared to the narrow bandpass of the woofer amp means that it should be approximately equal in power to the base amp.
I'll probably try both amps and if the QUAD is as good through the middle and top as I believe it will be, then I'll try to swap my MK III's for another QUAD 909 and bi-amp that way.
I Just don't remember the DB preamp. I was just a kid then.
My Audio Illusions Dual Mono preamp does date from then but much of its contents has been upgraded since. Though we didn't alter the circuit. It is a Bruce Moore design. I used it with a Dayton Wright transistor MC step up - with my Technics 1600 II and epc205 Mk4 cartridge (does not need the MC pre pre) and the Tympani IV (1982) it makes for a great retro system but the front end still outdoes the best digital I have come across, the revised PS Audio Perfect Wave DSD DAC. All this technology advancement and we might soon catch up with 1978.
Is the DB preamp updated?
The XO for the speakr is 500 hz so you don't need the same power on top as you might on the bottom. The Dyna should do it ok for normal vol listening.
You don't want the original XO at all. You should either get Marchand to build you an XM44 or get a Pass First Watt B4 crossover - it is fully adjustable to any XO up to 4th order, and costs a fraction of the fancy Pass labs version.
You can also do a hybrid XO using the DB pre as a buffer for the bass XO, which will need a 3rd order passive network, executed as 2nd order before the pre and 1st order after the pre. That combines into the same filter as the original.
500hz is very near the 50:50 power distribution point.
Maybe about 45:55 Lo:Hi
I have identical amps on my 600hz crossover 1.6s and with a low-cut to the bass panel at about 60 or 70hz, it works out very even indeed.
Too much is never enough
My Magnepan MG3A were rebuilt in the factory March 2008 at cost of $1000. I have the receipt/invoice for the service. Saw the ads in the asylum trader got it from a fellow inmate from Florida. The total cost of the speakers including shipping to my country (The Philippines) was less than $1000.
Im currently using them Biamplified ( a pair of ARC D79B's ,ARC EC21 Electronic Xover All tube) It sounds better w/ active Biamping (EC21) than using the stock XO-1 X over w/ a single amp.( My ARC CL 150 monoblocks or my D250 MK2 servo amp) .Have never tried biamping using the XO-1 Xover .
I doubt that the fact that the IIIa are in a factory sealed box would add any value to them. More importantly they have been in storage for 10 years which means 1) they were repaired by Magnepan before they began using the newer adhesive (I believe that is correct) and 2) Maggies don't store well - like any fine instrument they need to be played. Bottom line, they need to be examined and played to see if they are in the pristine condition that you think they are. If so I would estimate a fair sellling price of about $950.
Assuming the 3.6's have no issues (big assumption) then $1800 is a fair price and the net cost will be about $900. I have only listened to the 3.6's compared to my heavily modified IIIa's and I have not had extended listening time so it's hard to say if the swap is a good deal. However, prior to the 3.7's, everyone was claiming the 3.6's was a superior speaker. Now that the 3.7's have come out, you don't hear that as much. Nothing beats being on the bandwagon :).
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