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In Reply to: RE: Tympani 1-D, IIIa tweeter and custom foil mids using DCX2496 posted by computerman on December 07, 2014 at 09:06:38
Sorry, ancient memory, IIRC it was the 1 U that was 8 ohms????
Sounds like a good alternative. But if you like the Behringer then the add on Rane or Ashly XO is peanuts off of Craigslist.
Either of your power amp ideas is good. Should do fine. I just would avoid having a multichannel amp do both bass and mids or tweeters, particularly tweeters. So having the ADA on the IIIa bass seems the better idea.
I wish I could listen to something like the Behringer, but the sound it produces rubs me the wrong way. It is really hard to do decent digital, not to speak of good digital. Keeps me away from miniDSP and even TaCT and DEQX. Restored vintage 82 Japanese TT/cart outdoes all the digital I have heard. My DAC outdid an EAD 7000 that had been tweaked out. And I thought it was pretty good. The PS Audio DSD was a revelation to me, I didn't think we would get there before my ears give out from old age. We are doing the PS Audio DSD on my setup next week after the new upgraded firmware that got so much buzz. Hopefully that will open up the possibility of a digital future for me other than as second choice just to access newer recordings. I would so much like to EQ and time align everything digitally.
Follow Ups:
Satie, have you ever tried the DEQX, or any other form of digital time alignment? Have you used REW at all? Just curious what your thoughts are on it and your experience.
I also own a computer based crossover program that comes with Pure Vinyl. i think we discussed this some time ago, and they claimed to have improved it. It is Mac driven, and I have a couple of Macs to play with, and can devote one to a crossover if I so desired. Their website is http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/ Also have you tried anything like the DiracLive? Have you ever tried the auto align method of the DCX2496? Do you think it is worth doing? thanks in advance..lots of questions.
The Behringer lasted less than a week in my use. It was returned and I was disappointed that even toning down the FR with an overall downward slope EQ it was not listenable at all.
I tried M audio multichannel USB interface (they called it an external sound card then) + free download XO software that was slightly informative on what you can do. Could not stand the sound, did not bother with it again, 24/48 mya$$. Went back on the 3rd day. Headphones directly off my laptop soundcard sounded better.
I used REW to measure the speaker drivers but it did not teach me anything I had not measured before on that count, but time issues were a bit more interesting. However, I found that with the LR4 XO that Marchand talked me into there was no choice but to time align all the panels - before I actually did the REW measurements.
I learned that fine tuning the XO for 1st order and 2nd order PLLXO I was better off listening to the warble tones +meter rather than doing sweeps and noise bursts. I could then relate the measurements immediately to what I was hearing. I didn't depart from equidistant placement during any of the XO experimentation till this year.
I have not heard of the Pure Vinyl XO other than from you, I have not tried DEQX or TaCT. When I had the Behringer I did not try the autoalign because its sound made me distrust it by then.
I compared EQ with my White Instruments passive to EQ on the Behringer and was absolutely stunned by how much more transparent the analog passive was. Just not playing the same game.
The issue is that mediocre digital had become unbearable at real live volumes with the Neo8 it reveals everything whether you EQ it to take the edge off or leave it free with its little bump at 6-8 khz. It makes obvious such things as the break-in of a cap or a new solder joint.
I know that folks are not as sensitive as I am to digititis and I know a thick sounding midrange and lower treble can hide it. Like my setup, my friend's Focal Nova Utopia took apart the supposedly good ADC/DAC of the QOL device, I could not get past the obvious digital artifacts to try and evaluate what the device did. Most digital I have come across sounds like the RatShack "gold" interconnects. In PCM you could not get anything passable below $2k besides the Monarchy tube DACs. I got my lead brick 1 bit Sony CD player that was bearable but the Musical Fidelity DAC/Pre made it actually enjoyable on some recordings and had decent imaging texture and tone etc. I could even run it directly without a tube line stage to take the edge off. But that was a sleeper product that had flopped on its single production run since its connections were out of date before it hit the market. It was designed to be a $5k product but was just closed out at $3k for the one production run. I bought it used for bubkes.
You can get good and perhaps even great PCM digital (being less cynical about reviewers) if you do a discrete resistor ring or ladder DAC if you have a good clock and very clean PS on it. Turns out that making those costs a bucket load of money and has only recently become doable at anything resembling a reasonable cost with the drop in the prices of low jitter clocks (by a factor of more than 10). Even el cheapo DSD has fewer digititis artifacts than 2 or 3 grand PCM. It is at least listenable without irritation.
About all I can say is WOW..you have either "golden ears" or I have been listening to so much noise, i cannot tell the difference. Most likely the former is true as I am getting older and I do have the dreaded tinnitus. I was using a TDM 3-way active X-over, and the DCX made quite an improvement over that. That did not surprise me as I am not sure of the quality of the TDM. I guess the thing for me to do in the future, is to try some good passive implementations, and set up an A/B test. I would also like to try the Pure Vinyl route knowing the quality of their recording software, which i have found is phenomenal.. Using it gave me the best of both worlds. Vinyl on digital. I believe I got a better result from recording vinyl to the computer using their software for playback, than "pure vinyl" alone. They also recommend the Impact Twin as a DAC/DAW and that to beat it would cost near $5000. I also use some custom optimized cables to attach my turn table to the Twin. I just talked to them as my present Twin bit the bullet, and I was hoping to improve on it, but they claim that they found through their testing, that the Twin is the best under 5 grand. Hard to believe, but you know sometimes people get it right. It can now be picked up for a measly $229 on Amazon. If you had the extra money, it might be worth trying. Maybe a test and return if you don't like it kind of thing? I wonder what others think about digital processing. After I move and get settled in, get the new room set up, and all the recording system set up etc, I am definitely going to give a passive implication a test, if I can afford it. I can build them if I have the specs of the caps, etc. I was also thinking about investing in a MiniDSP 2x4 or similar unit (100 bucks or so) to use for the IIIa base addition. What do you think about that?
Also as I do not have the Neo-8's (yet) I can only imagine. That one is definitely on my list.
I don't think it is noise that bugs me, it is something else. Decimation and filter issues, both digital and analog that seem to be the prime cause of the irritation. None of these can be removed entirely from PCM playback, though they can be ameliorated by doing higher recording sample rates and better resolution (24 vs 16). I am tolerant of noise and to quite a bit of distortion. Even hearing it as distortion I can still enjoy music through it.
Converting PCM to DSD is like smoothing out the decimation error and the playback requires no digital filters and only a high freq filter. It avoids the chopped up transients that decimation creates. I always suspected that was the main problem of digital for me, with DSD smoothing it out and avoiding the bulk of analog filtration and doing away with digital filters altogether the bulk of the problem is hidden from the ear. The little loss of detail is not a big tradeoff. The clearer and more present high freq are a godsend. DSD sounds more like real music. DSD recordings are obviously better even as a source for PCM downsamples.
I am not particularly surprised that the Behringer sounded better than a high phase commercial analog XO. The Behringer does not have phase and you set it on 1st order. So if you are not particularly sensitive to digital artifacts then you would be better off using it. Mini DSP with upgraded parts was reported to sound as good as the Behringer. That does not indicate that a stock version would.
Is the Twin a DAC or ADC and DAC for a matching DAW? I have been looking at the Tascam DA 3000 as long time analog master users have been pitching or deep storing their tape machines in favor of this unit. It records 2XDSD and seems to have top quality sound. The chipsets and electronics are similar/identical to the Teac UD 501. The downside is that you have to play it from SD or USB flash cards so the convenience of PC audio is lacking.
Satie, below are the Impact Twin specs. It has been discontinued so that is why the price is down. It is an ADC/DAC DAW unit and firewire as well. It does have the advantage of utilizing a PC (in the case of Pure Vinyl Mac only). I read the article Steve linked to, and I am wondering if you have tube amps/preamps. That might explain some of what you hear using a DCX or similar DSP. Have you read the article? In addition, I find that playback of digitally recorded vinyl using Pure Vinyl and the Twin from my Mac to be quite pleasing. It might even be much better with a better quality DAC for playback. I think it might be worth your time to take a look at it before you purchase the Tascam, but the price is so low, you might just want to try it anyway.
http://www.tcelectronic.com/impact-twin/tech-specs/
Yes, I was using a tube preamp and had to tone it down to keep the max output from overwhelming the inputs to the Behringer. Even so, occasionally the transients from the LP were too much and would saturate the inputs. CD was easy since it has a real maximum. I was using a Garrott FGS or the smaller one (S?) with the Shibata (before I had the FGS stylus put in) which is a very lively and detailed MM. My phono stage has ample gain and today I take down the output by 14db with an L-pad to avoid overloading the SS preamp's input, which is limited to 10V.
I am changing the PLLXO/active hybrid I am using right now too often to have it be driven by the tube pre with its highish output impedance. The SS pre stage is good.
The midrange amp was a tube amp. But I tried it with SS too and the sound issues remained. Aside from having digititis it also sounded like a pro audio device.
Hope everyone is having a great Christmas Holiday. I was wondering what the opinions are on fuses? I sent the second panel in and it is being rebuilt the same as the first. Even though the mylar on this one seemed in pretty good shape, Sheila suggested replacing it so that they would match. Now the question is, The original fuses on the tweeters were 2.5A fast blow AGC-3 and I saw on a picture of 20's that it used a 5A AGC-3 fuse for the mids. What are some thoughts on this? I have some pretty high quality fuse holders that I used for the tweeters, and the same can be used for the mids. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I'm sorry not to be able to help here since I am fuseless.
:" Look ma...no hands" followed by crash sounds...
Congrats on the revitalized IIIa's
I think the big thing is to have your tweeter near the mids and then the mids near the bass - meaning in the middle. then you do an equidistant arrangement and it should all focus well.
Most folks who use 3.x with tympani panels just run the Tympani bass as subs, in which case the arrangement of tweeters in mid 3.x bass and T bass out or placed for wall reinforcement would be the way to go ( using a 4 way XO.
Is there really that much difference leaving out the fuses? Is it safe or a little dangerous? What precautions does one have to take to not use fuses? Why does Magnepan use them even on their most expensive speakers? Are people really that careless? I guess I can answer that question myself.. as I blew both fuses on my tweeters, which were traded out not long ago, so they are quite new. Hate to see that money go down the drain. I am using 2.5A as were the originals. Is that too low? Plus that and the combination of the cryo'ed fuse holder should make for good performance and safety I would think. But sometimes my thinking is flawed in this area especially. :) Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I am sure there are lots of pros and cons.
You took out the original fuse and holder. You have done a mod that is safe and likely got most of the performance improvement you can get from removing the fuse altogether. If you are bothered by possibly leaving potential performance on the table, then why not just bypass the fuses and holders with a wire and listen that way for a while. So long as you don't change the amplification and listening volumes etc. you should be safe - as you had not blown a fuse with them recently in that configuration.
My source components are on a battery UPS so that brownouts etc. don't end up with something upstream turning on on its own. That also leaves time for me to shut down anything that was on in an outage.
I only use amps with delay relays on the tweeter and adhere to the turn off/on sequence religiously, like keeping kosher, so that the 10+ years since I took the fuses out I have not cooked or blown the tweeters despite making big mistakes like feeding the tweeter amp the bass output from the XO.
The midranges I use can handle 100W RMS and are 96 db sensitive, If you are feeding them any significant amount of power they will let you know well before they blow.
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Finally, it took a while and a long wait but my IIIa panels with custom installed factory foil for the mids are here. Wow they did a beautiful job. The frames even look new. They replaced the mylar and cleaned up the frames so that they look new. I cannot say enough for the quality of the work Magnepan has done on these. It is truly top notch!
Now the next question is which way is the best way to install the panels? It has already been suggested that the tweeters should go to the outside, next to the T-1D panels. With that understood, it could be either of the following for placement....
At the outside we have two T-1D panels, tweeter, mid, IIIa bass; or it could be two T-1D panels, tweeter, IIIa bass, mid. To reverse the placement of the tweeter, I can just swap sides with the entire frame. Hope that all makes sense. It is quite versatile and would love to hear some suggestions.
Repost in appropriate spot
Congrats on the revitalized IIIa's
I think the big thing is to have your tweeter near the mids and then the mids near the bass - meaning in the middle. then you do an equidistant arrangement and it should all focus well.
Most folks who use 3.x with tympani panels just run the Tympani bass as subs, in which case the arrangement of tweeters in mid 3.x bass and T bass out or placed for wall reinforcement would be the way to go ( using a 4 way XO.
I did plan on using the T1-D's with a four way X-over, but was not sure about the X-over points.. I was thinking 30 to 40 Hz, with a X-over point of 200 or 300 Hz, What is your take on that?
If i set them up like you say, then the T-1 D's would be towards the side wall, with maybe one panel paralleling it and out from the side wall (depending on the amount of room as I have not been able to measure the new apartment yet). then the bass of the IIIa, mid and tweeter on the inside? Do I have that right? Sorry for the confusion, I just want to be very clear as you guys really seem to know your stuff, and why waste time getting it wrong? :)
Yes you have the arrangement right.
The best bass xo is probably higher than 50hz and the IIIa bass to mid XO depends on how steep you run it. If steep then 200-250hz is likely good, if low order then you probably want 400-500 hz.
If you are doing wall loading then the T1D bass panels would face forwards and you will position them a bit ahead of the IIIa to get better time alignment.
OK panels are all in and ready to hook up to the amps. Just need to know which terminal should be used for correct phasing. Would the outside wire be plus or inside? Does it make a difference as long as all are the same? I know the tweeters are correct as the factory gave me instructions on them as to hookup, but not sure about the bass and mids. I am going to initially hook up the IIIa's as if they were stand alone speakers until I move. So that begs the question of crossover points. What would the advisable crossover points remembering that I have foil for the mids. This will give me a chance to break them in also. Thanks In advance!
5A fuses on the ribbons is like no fuses at all. If you want to use fuses, go for the ones with solder tags. Do not use the original fuse holders. Do not use slow blow fuses.
Edits: 12/26/14
P.S. Roger I am using a cryo'ed silver LN2 Acme fuse holder.
Roger, Actually I am using 2.5A fuses on the tweeters, and I only blew them once when I forgot to turn off the amps when I was changing something. I think it was when I installed the new X-Over. Not sure. Other than that I never had any issues with fuses blowing. I do use a fast blow fuse. I do not use the original fuse holders. I use a high quality in line fuse holder. I will try to figure out where I purchased them, and let you know. I do recall talking about it here, and this is what was recommended at the time. I will search back to see what I find. Do you use fuses? What would you recommend for the mids? The 20's use a 5A fuse on the mids. I saw an actual picture of the original fuse holder in place. I should get one of the panels back soon. I expect to hear form Sheila the first of next week. Can't wait to see it and hear it. I will have to wait until the other comes back though and that will probably be a week or two into January, unfortunately. She did use the foil you recommended. Should be nice. It looks like the new apartment will not be finished until at least Feb. 1st, so I will most likely have them in the same place when they arrive back. I am not going to change speaker placement until I get them in the new place and new room. It does not make sense to spend the time tweaking them when I am going to move in a few weeks and then have to do it all over again. I would rather spend the time elsewhere as time is a precious commodity to me as I am sure it is to others. Again hope everyone has a Happy New Year!
I have some great news from Magnepan. They have agreed to rebuild my IIIa panels with foil using the foil that Roger recommended. I was really happy to hear the good news when Sheila called me. Magnepan is such a great organization, and their techs are awesome. What company would agree to modify their factory specs for a panel that will be placed in a custom built frame, and charge just normal rebuild prices? I don't think there are many companies that would do that. Maggie also approaches this with the utmost respect for their users. The foil is the same as used in the 20 series mids according to what Sheila told Roger. I can't wait to get them back, plus they will have all new mylar and anything else they need including new bass wire. I will keep you all posted on their progress and what they sound like when they return. I say they as I will be sending in the other panel soon so that I will have a matching pair. We also discussed the possibility of a foil bass of some sort, but Sheila thought that it just would not work with these and had no suggestions to pursue. But we did talk about it, and she seemed open to any other ideas. I am very impressed with Magnepan as a company, and of course, their speakers. As I mentioned in a previous post, I want to keep these speakers as three way speakers that are not dependent on others for completion. Just in case I want to sell them in the future and upgrade. That was always part of my intensions in the beginning. That does not mean I won't use them with my Tympani's. It is all part of a process of growth and learning for me as well, but is the primary reason I don't want to mod the bass to the extent that I cannot sell them as a three way complete speaker. Thanks again to all for the guidance.
computerman ,
Try this link , I think I have it right this time . . .
This Guy describes using the DCX auto time alignment
Thank you very much!! it is very helpful as any info on this unit is hard to find that is not cryptic.
computerman ,
Here's another link where the same gentleman does a shoot out
of Active crossovers . . . that is Listening Tests . . . very subjective , but it will give You some insight into what He was hearing
Yes, ID is 4 ohm. IIIB too. IC and IIIA are 8 ohm. I think the bass of the MG-IIIs is a bit "in the way" of the rest while using Tympani basses.
Roger, Actually I am not sure why but the bass on the IIIa measured 4 ohm. hmmm...Of course they are being rebuilt so I guess that will bring them back to 8ohm? Is there any way they can be wired for 4 ohm if I ask Sheila when she calls. They have the one panel at the factory now for rebuild. As soon as I have a price and specifics on it, I am sending the other panel in. Anxiously waiting her call and hoping they agree with the foil mid as you suggested. I gave then the specs you suggested as well for the foil.
The MG-IIIa have 4 ohm basses. No need to worry!
I think he is aware of the issue, but if it is focused with the Tympani bass panels being setup with equidistant centers to the IIIa bass panel then it should work better and integration would be better with the mid being closer to the midwoofer and the Tympani doing the real bass.
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