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In Reply to: RE: Thanks Doug... posted by Mark Man on November 27, 2014 at 15:16:58
and I think you're quite well balanced in your questions and attitude. I think Magnepan is a good company making a terrific product.
Marketing dictates a lot of what happens in this industry, and there's no getting away from it. That's not saying the marketing is dishonest; it's merely the way a company wishes to make, promote and protect its sales, which is all legit. But it can make it hard to do comparisons.
Regarding double cable runs I am always surprised at how efficacious it is, and it's not just the cat's meow with the King III, but every speaker I have ever used, regardless of type (dynamic, panel, omni, etc.) has benefitted similarly by doubling the speaker cable runs.
Yup, it can cost a lot, but the efficacy is on the order of a component of a couple thousand dollars, to find an illustration to help you peg the performance boost. It also seems to work with cables of any price point, so this is definitely not something only for the upper crust cables. I think I recall some discussion of doubling cables potentially presenting problems for very low power amps and high efficiency speakers, but I have never heard of an actual case of it. Perhaps SET amp and HE speaker aficionados could discuss that. I typically work with speakers having impedance between 2-8 Ohms and sensitivity between 83 and 96dB, and there has never been any hint of issues in doubling cables.
The one thing you MUST be absolutely careful about is matching terminations; one false move/mismatch and you blow up an amp channel. It's not for the mechanically challenged or the in attentive! I typically check the connections three times prior to firing up an amp. It's a bit like a plane's pre-flight checklist; if the engine blows in the air it's too late to reset. I remember one time going over to a friend's house who was adding components. He wanted me to do the hook up, and he was so nervous he went outside when I turned the system on! I played a good joke on him by taking advantage of his being absent to turn the balance on his preamp all the way to the one side, so that when he returned and we fired up the rig (I had already tested it) the effect was as though something had blown in one channel! He was aghast, but I didn't let him suffer too long. :) Yes, we are still friends.
If you're scared about it, have someone who knows systems backwards and forwards do the connections.
If I had no money to work with, I'd get double runs of the best sounding older, inexpensive speaker cables I could afford. There are those here who are much more knowledgeable than I am, but my understanding is that doubling the gauge lowers the impedance that the receiving component sees, while elevating the capacitance. These two things seem to bring a beautiful benefit in transmission of the signal. One can do the same essentially with a cable having higher total gauge conductors.
There are others who disagree vehemently about this, so it's open to debate. I also will be working again with some small conductor wires soon, as I like to retrace my steps after a period of time to see if new technology, etc. brings a new revelation.
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
Follow Ups:
Mismatched terminations can blow up an amp channel? Doug, you should elaborate on this because it reads like nonsense.
Any decent amplifier is not going to have a problem with an open circuit on its output. A double run to a separated crossover network with one of the cables open will simply result in one section of the speaker not working. If a short circuit exists that would obviously be a different condition and might cause an amplifier a problem....but only ones that do not have proper protection built in.
There is no inherent advantage in double runs of speaker cables, other than the conductor increase in size. Gauge does not "double" in that case....conductor cross-sectional does....resistance is cut in half.....etc, etc. Gauge reduces by three in this case. ie, if you double-runned two 18awg speaker cables you'd have the effective cross-sectional area of a 15awg cable.
Cheers,
Dave.
I used the phrase loosely, "doubling the gauge," when I should probably have said lowering the gauge. Yes, I should have known better that doubling doesn't halve the gauge; I didn't do the homework to consult a chart to see the actual gauge reduction. The point, I believe was understood that I meant doubling the cables, and your correction of terminology is appreciated.
I'm not sure, though, you understand what I am intending; a double biwire setup would have 8 leads going to four posts. Some amps simply cannot accommodate so many connections. I often use a shotgun biwire cable in association with another set of spades and a set of banana cables. In a double biwire setup if I am not mistaken a mismatch at any point in the wiring, either at the speaker or amp, would cause a short circuit. Also, though I might not have mentioned it, I often bi-wire single wirable speakers, which if mis-wired would cause a short circuit. Obviously, this is riskier business than simply getting a cable with lower AWG. But here's the thing, the sound improves markedly with lowering of gauge, and improves yet more beyond the most massive cables a company can make. So, one is left with the potential of doubling the cables.
I understand that theoretically not much should improve sonically by lowering gauge, but in every instance I have ever tried it, it has benefitted the sound significantly. Even many DIY types who know their math and circuits well build massive cables out of CAT 5 for the same reason. I apologize if I don't describe it perfectly from a technical perspective; I should. However, that doesn't change the results sonically, which are quite easy to hear for most audiophiles.
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
Doug,
You're turning a very simple interconnect scheme into something way too complicated and something a non-technical user could easily get screwed up. This type of double-run recommendation should be couched with numerous "perform at your own risk" warnings. :)
Regardless, a double-run of cable X versus a single run of cable X is an easily understood RLC analysis. I have no doubt you've noticed sonic differences, but let's not attribute to this some kind of multiple-conductor magic. A simple change to an equivalent single-run cable with the same RLC parameters as a double run of cable X will yield identical performance.
Cheers,
Dave.
That is why I do discuss it as "do at your own risk," and caution people who are not careful, or mechanically inclined not to do it.
Who said anything about magic? If I said anything about it being "magical," it would be an allusion to the emotional experience, not the functionality of it. I don't believe the sonic changes are due to some nebulous, or mysterious effect. I don't give credence to tweaks of all sorts which yield no sensible or audible improvement.
I don't consider doubling the cables a simple change. I consider it a significant change, both electrically in terms of the transmission of the signal, and the resultant sound quality. It seems you are dismissing it offhand. If I read you right, your comments boil down to thinking I'm imagining a difference, but you think that theory shows there cannot be a difference.
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
Doug,
I didn't dismiss it offhand. And I said nothing about you imagining a difference. Please re-read my posts again.
I simply said a different cable(s) with equivalent RLC parameters will sound identical. How difficult a concept/statement is that to grasp?
You're in good company.....a number of posters on this forum like to read things into my comments that aren't really there. :)
The silly strawman replies are pretty darn irritating.
Cheers,
Dave.
I know the guys at Zu Audio fairly well...My current Speaker Cables are the Zu Event, a hidden gem in Cable Market, IMHO...
I had there Wax Bi-wire Speaker cables for years, due to their cable geometry, they are terminated at the amp end as one hook-up, but they run two full cables on the speaker end...
So, if I understand you correctly, if the speaker end was terminated for each binding post, like the amp end would that achieve what you are talking about without the risk??
So, these pair would be for one speaker??? Right???
If you know the Zu guys at all, they are pretty much game for anything...
Thanks
Mark
speaker cables. I have a similar set done up by Clarity Cable.
Yes, if the speaker end were terminated like the amp end it would be a good illustration of what I do with separate cables. If the speaker was biwirable I would use all four cables on the one speaker channel, say the Left speaker. I would get another set of four and do the other channel, say Right. Sounds crazy, eh? But you should hear it.
With the cables you show you could double wire a pair of speakers L/R with one set of posts each.
It can be tough to lodge all the spades onto the speaker posts. Often I approach the post with the two spades from opposite directions, i.e. one at 12 O'clock and the other at 6 O'clock. You also need to be exquisitely careful that you have all the positive and negative spades clear of each other so as to not cause a short. If you have a speaker binding post wrench it helps to make sure they are snugged down so that they will not budge.
If it helps diagram the connections.
Like I say, this is a play at your own risk proposition. You begin to see why I recheck connections three times. Most of the time I verbally call out the colors of the posts and wiring attached to it, i.e. "Red, red, red.." Then move to the other post, "Black, black black.." By doing so you will be able to catch a mis-wired post. Don't guess at anything; make sure the connections are perfect. I most often use at least one set of banana connectors in place of spades as it obviously makes the connections easier. But I have at times used all spades.
If you can get it to work for you, the sonic benefit should be immediately noticeable.
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
This would be further down the road if I was to do this...a pair of bi-wires per side in this configuration...a red+ and black-
I would do spades on the amp end, (my Magtech has very beefy binding posts), and bananas on the speaker end...damn Maggie binding posts...
The King III's x-over's have bi-wire/amp binding posts...so 2 bananas for the highs and 2 bananas for the lows...Maggies would be 1 banana positive and 1 banana negative, with any of the .7 models...I would have them, who ever cable company, do factory terminations...safety first...
New DAC and a Music Server, is next on the hit list...
thanks again...
Mark
Just asking, and only because I don't know the answer (and am not trying to be a smart-ass), don't the 'anti-cable' enthusiasts believe differently about matters relating to cable gauge ?
There's nothing to "believe" about cable gauge. It is what it is.
I'm not sure what an "anti-cable" enthusiast is. Cables can certainly make a difference.....but they have to be evaluated from an engineering standpoint vice all the subjective audiophile hand-waving. There's absolutely nothing magic about cables. :)
Dave.
Anti-cable 'enthusiast'(?):
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/anticables.htm
Sorry, I thought you were referring to something else.
Yeah, I'm well aware of Paul's offerings. Of course you know that's just a rather catchy name he's called them, but they really ARE cables. :) His cables have an inherent RLC characteristic just like all other cables do. He's just trading off one for another.
Dave.
I appreciate your insights on the bi-wiring...My 1.6's were bi-wired and it was an improvement, but not as significant as what you have described...
In my own head, the more resolving your speakers are, the more noticeable small or any changes become...
I have done the cable test for people, (mostly non-Audiophiles), switch one cable in the chain and ask can you hear the difference...I have never had someone say they did not hear a difference...
Side bar: Maybe it is a Minnesooota thing, or a Maggie thing because of their size, but friends and family asking "what did those cost???" and that would apply to the Maggies and rig in general...kind-of a pet peeve of mine...my standard answer is: "it is a Harley or Boat you can use year around"...(most of them have one or the other sitting in their garage), that they can ONLY use 3-4 months out to the year...that is something they can wrap their head around...then I show them the cost of Odin's or Stealth's and say my rig is the equivalent of 1 pair of cables...in that $15k-$20k range...
About every six months, somewhere on the Asylum, is a thread about the benefits or lack there of, of bi-wiring...wow...those get heated...but with our hobby, many things do...anonymity fuels the lack of civility, which is just beyond me...I respectively agree to disagree...leave it at that...
Messing with your friends balance after shot-gunning, is evil and very funny...my sister use to teach sewing to the blind and hear boyfriend taught wood working...one of his more difficult students after staining his project, told him he grabbed the paint and not the stain...he let that simmer over-night, before he told him...now that is evil...
Thank you again...don't be a stranger...
Mark
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