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Hear is the catch...the box speaker has to cost the same as what you have invested in your Stats or Planars...No pie in the sky here...
Mine would be Thiel 2.7's used or Joseph Audio Pulsars used...both very musical with stellar soundstage, detail and imaging...
Vandy Quatro's used, not the Quatro Wood, they come up very seldom on the used market, these are the closest I have heard to Maggie sound...
All of these can be had for around that $5k mark...the cost of the my 3.7's, (used), with Mye stands...
Curious to what some of the other inmates would choose...
Thanks
Mark
Follow Ups:
There are some i like over the years for one reason or the other,
1. Sonus faber Electa amator
2. B&W 801 series 3 matrix
3. Wilson audio watt/puppy
4. Klipsch Horn
5. Avantegarde Duo
6. JM Labs Maestro scala Utopia
OK, i see you set a 5K limit, so limit some choices .....
Long ago I owned a pair of MG1c's. I have recently heard the 3.7's and those certainly are an incredible speaker. That said the boxed speakers I'm living with today were meant to be a short term deal until I could afford what I really wanted but I'm having a hard time parting with them mainly because they remind me a little of the openness of the Magnepan speakers with the benefits of drivers. These are the Golden Ear Triton 2's. I am driving them with McIntosh MC601's and using a Mark Levinson No326 preamp with a No360s DAC. As I said I was preparing for "more" speaker so those amps are way overkill for the Tritons. The Triton 2's or the newer Triton 1's might be something for you guys to take a listen to if you don't have quite the room or the amp for the Magnepans. I'm now going to try and find a pair of 20.7's to audition.
I use Triton 2s for my home theater speakers. Every once in a while I pull them into the music room and am always pleasantly surprised at how good they are (replacing my 3.7i's).
I find the Triton ribbon tweeter absolutely amazing. When pulled way out into the room (6 foot or so) the soundstage and imaging are awesome. They also have the additional weight of a non planar in the bass.
Still, regardless of how much I enjoy them, I always miss that planar sound and so I move them back to the theater after a few days.
I use Triton 2s for my home theater speakers. Every once in a while I pull them into the music room and am always pleasantly surprised at how good they are (replacing my 3.7i's).- swamis cat
Seem like good speakers ...
http://www.stereophile.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-two-loudspeaker
Hi Swami
Meant to ask you if you had any further progress with the Double Maggies setup,
I switched back to a single set a few days ago.
Here is what I learned...
Just adding a second Maggie set at a right angle to the main set changes the bass. Semi wings.
I could never get the bass to sound as good as I expect. Indeed, it wasn't just mushier, it was probably lower in level with both playing than with a single playing. I was getting bass cancellation or combing or something.
The highs sounded great with amazing lateral imaging way beyond the sides of the room. Mids were a little too prominent though.
The biggest difference seemed to be with adding body and substance to images on the sides of the stage. My uneducated guess is that I was getting the benefit of two speakers producing the sound in multiple directions and somewhat out of phase ( something which happens normally with images in center stage?).
To fix the bass, I disconnected the woofers from the wings. But that still left me with too much mid energy. So I added my DWMs to the mix.
This was definitely the bast sound. But now I had a Frankenstein of three sets of speakers. Definitely more punch, volume and weight in everything. Less depth and fine tuned image specificity and micro detail though.
I loved every minute with this set up. But still preferred the sound of my 3.7i when I reverted back.
Anyone who can try it should. Just for kicks.
Swamis...
I enjoy your adventurous spirt to try anything...your listening room doubles as a gymnasium...
So...the i's have it...hhhmmmm...coherence? Tone/texture? Tangible detail? Please do tell???
Thanks
Mark
I am no audio reviewer' but let me take a swag at describing the differences.
First, what is missing.... When I switch back to the 3.7i in optimal position, I notice more fine grain micro detail in instruments. The tiny, subtle little details of the breaths or fingers moving across the bass strings and such. In addition I lose soundstage depth and layering information. Everything moves forward into a wider yet less deep stage.
What I gain is roundness, body and size to the instruments and voices. They sound more real and three dimensional. Especially when not center stage. I gain width way beyond the side walls. The microphone soundstage test on Stereophiles third test disc is downright freaky. I close my eyes and point at images way to the side of my speakers.
I also gain volume and power. I can play them at a lower volume setting. And at the same measured SPL it sounds louder. In other words I can play it at lower volume and it sounds more alive. With three sets of speakers and two amps it plays extremely realistic volumes and power and dynamics. Imaging is probably a bit more diffuse, but not in an unrealistic way. Like I said before, it reminds me of the imaging of the MBLs. Like there is a trade off between imaging size and realism. This also shows up in the atmosphere around instruments and voices. It's like I can hear the room and reflections better.
Hope this helps.
I think you are right and there is some bass cancellation due to the XO alignments being (rumored) 1st order vs. 3rd order. so they would come out 90 deg apart in the XO region and group delay on the deeper bass on the III would remain high even as that on the 3.7i approaches 0. So once you add the longer path from the bass panel to bounce off the wall to your listening seat - about 2 feet extra, you will get comb filtering over wide swaths in the bass as phase differences will hit 180 degrees at different frequencies.The solution would be to have a fine phase adjustment on the side bass panels to bring them into phase with the rest of the setup in most of the bass freq range. Alternately, you can try a first order XO (just a coil) on the bass panel. I have one pair of iron cores I can lend you to try, I think it would work in your target freq range I will go check them out later if you are interested..
PS, did you try reversing the polarity of the wing bass panels?
Edits: 12/28/14
Satie,
I am beyond incompetent when it comes to all things electrical. My guess is I would not know what to do with an iron core if I had one. However, I am just capable of reversing the polarity of the bass. There is no danger or issue with reverse polarity on a common Mylar sheet is there (just wondering out loud about the Mids and bass being reversed to each other)? I could try it.
The fact that I have two DWMs certainly solves some of the issue though. I can get as flat frequency response as I desire via positioning the three sets of speakers in the room and relative to each other. (The optimal DWM location is different when the second set of speakers is added.
Thanks you very, very much though for the offer.
So should I try again with reversed polarity on the bass? I am assuming I just reverse the two wires going from external XO box to the bass terminals. Should be fun.
Should I also try reversing polarity on the entire 3a?
Yes, exactly so, swap the wires to the bass to reverse polarity next time you schlep the second maggies in.
There is no danger to the mylar, magnepan has their own reverse polarity designs, IIRC...
No try them back to back, 6-8 inchs apart , or side to side with tweeters together ...
Edits: 12/29/14
Back to back 6 to 8 inches. Won't that cancel out in both directions?
Pair of Klipcsh Cornwalls with a Jolida JD502 60w tube integrated. Amazing texture and detail at low levels.
Whatever sounds good...do that.
Yes, you can even fit a refurbished 70s or 80's La Scala in the budget. It is just unimaginable how dynamic those things sound.
Might sound crazy but I'd look for a set of KEF 104aB's. Efficient, crazy good base, wonderful imaging, and very low coloration. Won't shake the walls, but there's a reason so many high end speakers use KEF drivers. This is one of them. The 104aB's mixed their best very high power 8" woofer/midrange (B200 1243) with a flat piston passive radiator (tuned correctly) and one of KEF's best tweeters. The aB stands for "Acoustic Butterworth). They tuned the passive radiator to "crossover" using the physics of the drivers & box as inputs to a Butterworth crossover design and it worked. Definitely a speaker that punches above its weight.
Not familiar with that version. I was very much taken by the 104.2 in the day nearly 30 years ago.
The 104/2 was a very complex and expensive next iteration that bore no physical resemblance to the 104 and 104 aB. While the 104/2 is an excellent if ambitious design, the original 104 & 104 aB's were brilliant in their simplicity, range, and clarity. Placed on stands (they were a large bookshelf type box) they really are a testament to what fine drivers and thoughtful engineering can do in a simple two way box.
Odd that I never came across them. Thanks.
The 104.2, Altec VOT, ML CLS, and Tympani IV were the speakers that took me by surprise when I first heard them and brought tears to my eyes. And none of them were playing Billie Holiday....
They show up on ebay occasionally. They look like a 3-way but they actually only have two active drivers. I got a set for one of my daughters last year and paired them with an Audio Research D-52. Excellent.
I have no idea. I really haven't listened seriously to any box speakers since my Large Advent days. I'm still enjoying my MGII-b Maggies that I bought new in 1986 which have been fully Razor modded and mounted on Mye stands.
These only cost a bit under $1100 when I bought them, so with mods and stands, I have about $1900 into them.
I wouldn't know where to start.
There are used Vandy 2Ce or sig,
PSB Synchrony 1 used
Paradigm Studio 100 or Studio Monitor current variant used
Sonus Faber Venere series
And for something totally different A used Klipsch Cornwall.
Cornwalls. Wow. I haven't listened to those since college.
We would have parties with those. We would run 75w Tiger mono blocks and a reel to reel. It was loud. I had to keep a fan on the amps or they would shutdown.
I'm probably the only guy with SWTC tiger amps that haven't burned up.
looking for some jazz and a little libations - joe strummer
My party system (and music) was a JBL Century with a Giant Sansui receiver (7050?) on a Lenco 75 + V15 MR (III then IV). Made a gigantic racket.
I had replaced the tweeter with a NS1000 tweeter. Transformed the speaker.
What makes this tough for me is I only paid $10 for my Maggies. I had to rebuild the tweeters but I had the wire.
I don't go out listening to speakers but an audio buddy has a pair of Vandy 2C (?) in his main listening room. These sound pretty good with his OTL gear. They are pulled out from the rear wall about 3'.
About the best I've heard while visiting friends was some Paradigm Studio 100s. They where not set up very well but I with with a real amp and better source, these could be nice.
I have a few pair's of ADS speakers throughout the house but none are in the music room. Just Maggies and tubes in that room.
Sorry for the late response...
looking for some jazz and a little libations - joe strummer
New design Ryan Speakers debuted at RMAF. I already own the 620,a two and a half way and once owned quad 57's. MG1, 2, and 3's. Awaiting for the 630 a true three way.
Even though I haven't heard them, I'd try to listen to a pair of Endeavor E-3's. Or - I'd try to find a used pair of Von Schweikert VR 4 SR MkII's for around $7000.
Just to throw another idea out (if I had to give up my 3.6R's) would be the Audio Physic Classic 30's. They are a beautiful loudspeaker and with the twin 7" woofers 'hidden inside the cabinet' along with twin 6" mids and a great tweeter -- these might just be the ticket for a loudspeaker to rival the 3.6R's or 3.7's .... Depends on the size of the room of course and other factors.
Well for me would be Infinity RS4.5's, part box,part ribbon, or QLS-1's
Well I have a set of Infinity RS 2.5s. It was my main speaker for over 20 years. However time has moved on and all speakers have gotten much better. For a planer replacement I would look at Triangle. The Magellan of course or the new ALPHA or DELTA. I had a pair of early Celius and the sound stage was a mile deep. I have no idea why these are not more popular.
If I had to go back to my younger years, ESS AMT series speakers. I custom built a tri-amped speaker with transmission line woofer, KEF B110 Mids, and a Heil driver top. All driven by hand built amps( by me ) that were designed by Nelson Pass in the late 70's. It really sounded good and had incredible bass. The Maggies (2.7's ) that I bought new tempted me and I sometimes Wish for the old hand built system.
Russ
My JansZen zA2.1s are now priced at $8,750, Luckily I didn't have to spend that being an early adaptor but I can't think of any box speaker at that price that interests me. The JansZens are a unique and wonderful speaker, worth the cost.Many have used Vandersteen as a possible alternative. The Treo CT at $7,995 would be the closest competitor based on price alone. I haven't heard them, but they don't measure up on paper. My JansZen's have better frequency range, higher sensitivity, are an easy load for my modest tube amp, provides tweeter and bass controls for room matching, and are a two way design despite being a hybrid.
I have heard the big Vandys at shows and they are impressive but at what cost? For me though I still think nothing beats an ESL for sonic purity. BTW, I had Maggie 1.7s and liked them alot as well. The only alternative to the purity of ESLs is horns and those are way expensive to get full range.
Edits: 11/25/14
...the box speaker would be ten times the price of my maggies, and I'd probably still not like them as much.
thanks
Mark
Sold my Vandy 3A Sigs and when I bought my Acoustat Monitor 4's and if forced to give them up I'd probably go back to Vandy. Although since I no longer own a traditional amp, I'd more than likely have to consider it as a package deal and that would present a whole bunch of potential options.
Vandersteens (any coincidence my name starts the same, how could they not be good!? haha) would be high on my list. Sonus Fabers sure made my ears happy every time I've heard them.
The Sonus Fabers, that I have heard...dealers only...were always on the dark side and a little congested...IMHO...
As far as a beautiful boxes, my Italian Brothers, make some of the prettiest...
Thanks
Mark
Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini...motto benne...(very good)...make the workmanship on your Vette...look American made...oh, it is...
The Sonus Fabers are not particularly dark and the Cremona M are decidedly extended and open on top, perhaps slightly bright even.
They have to be really carelessly placed and matched to dark electronics to sound like that. But then dealers have done worse. Like the guys who were demoing flagship Wharfdale speakers without putting in the shorting strips to the tweeter terminals. People were politely turning to other speakers. I told them something was wrong and went and looked behind the speaker and told them what to do. Competence is rare on a dealer's showroom floor.
Small room, with waaaaay to much gear in it...not set-up at all, can't remember what was hooked up to them...other then they were dark and congested...like the room...heard a larger model in their bigger room, but the 20.1's, in that same room, smoked them...so I do not remember how they really sounded...
thanks
Mark
But they are pretty...
Likely set-up was well done when I heard them. What amp was it? Wires? Pre?... Unsure, but I've liked them when I heard them and didn't find them dark. It has been some time, and maybe my ears were blinded by my eyes passion. :)
Yes, I'd take most any Ferrari over my Z06. Wanna lend me $100K? Although I will say, it is quick, very. A lot of fun to drive.
Says for the money...nothing can touch the Vette...similar to Maggies I guess...so yea I get it...He also likes the older Lotus Elise, with the Toyota Supra engine...Horsepower to weight ratio is off the charts...but the Lotus quality is non-existent...really a tin can...
thanks again Grant...
Mark
Ps. He just bought this Formula F3 for $1K...I have sat in it and it is a tube steel death trap...fyi...
The Z06 is hard to beat for the $ for sure. 3100# and over 400HP, over a G on the skid pad, 11.97 1/4 mile, 170MPH top speed, 0-60 in 3.9. That's tough to beat so many strengths for less than a lot of cash.
Been driving 325's for 17 years, wanted something to scare me for a change. :)
That little rocket looks scary!
If you couldn't safely leave it the parking lot when going to see a movie, what the h**l good is it?
But my Z06 is my daily driver; every day spring, summer and fall. I have fun with it every day, take it to the store, whatever. If I could afford a Ferrari I'd do it under the same conditions. To me no point in having it unless I drive it regularly.
The finishing on Sonus Fabers are spectacular but like yourself the sound isn't quite agreeable and doesn't match quite the Planars as well as being a little warm for my taste.
It's actually pretty amazing how good some low-end speakers are these days. I'm downsizing due to lack of use and lack of space, so I'm selling my MGIIIa's. I picked up a used set of Paradigm Studio 60's for under $500, and I'm surprised at how good they are. Granted, I'm driving them with a Meridian 565 and IcePower amp, so the upstream is really nice, but the imaging and low end are very good. I've listened to a lot of very expensive speakers, but as with all things audio, it's diminishing returns. Sure, I could drop $3k on something nicer, but odds are it would only be a little bit nicer.
If I get bored with the PD's, I might look into some Omega speakers. I heard a set of them way back in the day at the Rocky Mountain Audio fest, and they were very impressive.
Not a Maggie owner but I've heard the latest Linkwitz LX521 speaker and if you don't mind some work assembling the Madisound kit for about $5000 with amps, I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't a speaker Maggie lovers could live with.
I cant say "same price point" nor can i say "box speaker". But i do own the LX521 and MMG's.
I love the MMG but the LX521 is in another league. I have family with several of the higher end Thiels and wouldnt trade them.
Have heard the name, but not familiar at all with them...will have to do a little research...
thanks again...
Mark
many here are looooong time Maggie owners who don't have much 'box' experience (myself included). I did own a pair of Vandersteen 2s back in the old days. And although they rank right up there along with the best box speakers, they can't (IMO) fill a soundstage like the Maggies do. In all fairness Maggies can't touch the Vandys in dynamics, slam.
Yes...I agree...I too am fairly long in the tooth Maggie owner and feel for full retail of the 3.7's, $6K there is nothing, that I have heard, in that price range that comes close...
Hence...the used market
Pulsars...MSRP $7K
Thiel's 2.7...MSRP $8k
Vandy Quatro's...MSRP $10K...discontinued...the Quatro Woods, (current model), are MSRP...$12.5K
These are box speakers I have heard and NOT owned, but were noteworthy enough that I liked they way they sounded...I prefer my Maggies MUCH more for all the obvious reasons...but for some God forsaken reason, I could not own Maggies, these would be what I would look into in the same price range...ALL used...
That is why I put the caveat "for the same money you have spent on your Planars or Stats"...it is difficult to come up with a "box" speaker that is even remotely in the same league...IMHO...
This goes back to sonic bang for your buck...great value...
What is the MMG equivalent??? What is the 1.6/1.7 equivalent??? For what used 3.6's are going for...there is NOTHING, IMHO that comes even remotely close...
Yea, this might be an exercise in futility...it is difficult to do...I was just curious what Planar and Stat owners would choose...or could they???
I am getting my answer in just a few replies...
thank you for the response...
Mark
Have not come across any box speakers in the same price range as 20.7s that will do the same thing. My fallback "box speakers" is quite a lot more then that.
A long time planar man I know had been extremely impressed with Focal Nova Utopia Be speakers and tried for a year to make them work in his room, going to some extreme damping strategies. He recently gave up and went back to ML Summit X speakers. He owned Sound Labs and MG20.1s.Another friend is far too much into high impact "classic" rock to look at planars seriously I listened to the speakers he churned through over the last few years. The Revel Ultima Studios were very good on all counts and imaged well. The Sonus Faber Cremona M were missing the bottom octave and lacked bass dynamics but performed close to planar levels in imaging and detail. The Pulsars were disappointing in this crowd but they do alot given an appropriate space. The Nova Utopias are only lacking in scale of their soundstage which I guess is due to their wide baffles and hard surfaces that despite being rounded do not seem to deal as well with creeping waves as do the Sonus Fabers.
I would not trade my Tympani/Neo8 for any of them.
That said, nobody ever sets up box speakers correctly for producing a full scale soundstage with good imaging. That requires pulling the speakers 1/3 of the room into it and spacing them 1/4 of the room away from the sidewalls - and the distance to the sidewalls has to be greater than 4' and preferably 6'. I did so with Vandersteen 2Cs to great effect with full sized holographic soundstages, but failed to convince anyone else to do so.
EDIT: The main reason folks don't like this is that it requires adjustment of the bass upwards (or mid and tweeter downwards) to get tonal balance because there is no wall reinforcement. So you need EQ or to have adjustable bass or mid/treble levels as Vandy's do.
Edits: 11/24/14
IMHO...there is nothing that can touch the BIG Maggies at that price point...
I do not know how far up the $food chain$ you would have to go to achieve the sonic equivalent of the 20's...
I have not heard the 20.7's, I have only heard the 20's and 20.1's...
thanks
Mark
I could live with the 20.7s for a long time even though I do realize there are certain short comings. Planers are very forgiving room wise and I realize I would have to do much more to the room if I were to go for "box speakers".
My choice to replace the 20.7s would cost at least 6 times more and those are active bi-amping speakers.
So what would those speakers be?
In my opinion, it would have to be at the minimum the FM Acoustic XS-3 system. I have had on many ocassions to compare them and even the XS-1 and for me those are speakers I would likely to consider swapping out my 20.7s for. The XS series are custom order all active setup and isn't found in the FM catalog at all.
I found the Joseph Pulsars to sound bloated and the Thiels overly bright, both require careful matching with appropriately complementary amps - and those are few.
I would look at the Vandersteens. model 3, and model 5 as well as the quatro.
Though I didnt hear them, the Legacy dipole speakers with AMTs are very attractive and review very well. Though the Whisper is out of the price range.
Heard the Thiels in an all Rogue Tube set-up...pretty damn smooth...overall...(I have heard these need to be matched carefully with everything...cables, amps, sources...), but the Rogue stuff sounded nice...
The Pulsars were with Bel Canto E-one amps...played pretty damn big...did not notice the bloat at the time, but they did seem like they were "trying" really hard...
I have not heard many Vandy's, but did like the Quatro's...
Thanks Sadie...
Mark
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