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Sounded great, first time I've really been able to compare them to the MG20s. Bottom line is the Maggies have the better bottom (bass that is); granted the Duettas fall more in line with the 3 series but the bass they produce are extremely fast, taunt, palpable and accurate.
Best way I can describe the nature of the Duettas is they're fast and energetic. In fact you can tell their membrane gets 'excited' more than the Maggies do (if that makes sense). Instrument separation is superb, instrument placement always seem natural (not high and above as the tall MG20s tend to do on occasion). Vocals go to the Maggies however; they're more velvety, natural and luscious.
The sax on Brubeck's "Take 5" is right in the room; woody, breathy, and right on point. The drum solo lacked the depth and realness compared to the 20's but still sounded down right phenomenal.
The Duettas have better dynamics if that's what you're looking for; the Maggies (at least on the older 20s) have more -how should I put it: "smoother" dymanics IMHO.
Bottom line: the Duettas are World class no doubt and can still stand their own against many speakers-both box and planar made today.
Only downfall for me is they're friggin' heavy; they even smashed the wheels on the special dolly I made for em'!
components: Krell KSA 200s amp, Foreplay tube preamp, Sony blue ray DVD feeding into a Mark Levison No 36 DAC. Room: 18x20 speakers approx 5 feet from front wall, 3' from sides
Follow Ups:
Opus 33 1/3
Then You are totally unfamiliar with Carver Sunfire amps.
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
and yes, I've heard several Sunfire amps. Owned a couple of Carver amps back in the day. Also owned a Krell.
Opus 33 1/3
Then I gather that You never had them side by side to do a justified comparison!?
Personally I can honestly attest to not hearing any Krell amp ever in my life.
Though, I have heard from users that a lot of them sounds harsh in comparison.
Any comments on that?
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
to be on the warm side of neutral. And a KSA-250 puts out in the 1,000 wpc range at 2 Ohms. I've never heard a KSA 250 sound strained under any circumstances.
Opus 33 1/3
The Krell KSA and KMA series sounds better on practically all aspects relative to the Carver amps. But they will sound strained on a loud Apogee listening session as it was in the large demo room at the dealer's, where the Carver retains composure better - but then you could budget for a bigger Krell to match the power requirement.
That said, the Krells were never my favorite amps for Apogees, that was the two tiered tube amps from VTL and ARC.
THe KSA 250 we had at my place had a one note thumpy bass and not that great resolution or natural tone.
The original KSA100 was a relatively nice warm sounding amp but without much resolution.
A friend of my had six of the big reference monoblocks (KRS200 I think) on one of seven pairs of Apogee Grands and it paled in comparison to 6 NAT tube monoblocks on the same speakers.
Which NAT monos did he use?
I have no doubt that the SET amps would sound glorious in a way that the Krells never would, but wouldn't he have done better triamping with a SS bass amp with 4 NATs on the other drivers?
That aside, these are $20K+ amps
The Sphinx and other hybrids would be more interesting.
Any opinion of the Monarchy hybrids?
Any ideas for a low cost hybrid > 50W with minimal feedback and no global feedback?
I will second the Krell over any Carver. I have yet to hear a Load Invariant, but have had the M1.5T and a few other Carver amps...
I built two KSA-50 Clones and had a real KSA-250. First of all the KSA-250 was Sliding Bias design, even tho it wasn't initially marketed as the 250S. The KSA-200 is the one to get - full bias- Class A All Day... You can tell as it gets Friggin' HOT The KSA-250 just got warm. The KSA-250 also only pulled 6-7amps from the wall driving Tympanis and ESLs (but yes - Speaker load dependent), and was only 1 amp more than my KSA-50 Clone.
The KSA-50 (actually biased more like a KSA-80) is by far the best amp I ever heard on my Tympani T-IVa. The only thing better than the KSA-50 on the Tympanis was an ICEpower 1000ASP on the bass panels and the KSA-50 on the mids / highs. Perfect. Unfortunately too big for my Listening room.
I purchased a pair of Scinnies - 1 ohm version - and while taking some measurements, I had a little accident (don't wanna get to to it - too depressing), so I never got the chance to run the supposed holy grail combo of the KSA-250 on them before the mishap. Someday I will get to the fix. Since sold the KSA-250 a it was really not as great sounding as my full Bias KSA-50...
Anyway, now running a pair of 2+2, and I switch off between the ICEPower 1000ASP and the KSA-50.
I always thought Krell was nothing more than audio snobbery - until I heard the KSA-50. A damn good amp.
I VOID WARRANTIES
Unfortunately the Krell nameplate carries a hefty price tag even in the used market, so I never got to appreciate even a KSA50 at home. Fortunately, the Apogee and Krell dealer was a 10-15 min walk from grad school so I got to get my impressions.
With the observation that anything sounded better in class A I rebiased my lowly B&K ST 202+ to toaster levels and put a fan on the heatsinks. Pulling my Vandy 2Cs 1/3 of the room away from any wall and adjusting for asymmetry, I got a walk around soundstage and great smoothness and tonal and textural integrity. Even CD was listenable. Not so before the bias tweak. I can't say I got Krell performance, having actually heard a class A Krell on a Vandersteen 2ce and model 3, but I did get very close, and considering the 1/10th price tag I was happy.
I also did a bit of baking with bias with the Classe Dr-9 doing alternately tweeter or midrange duties on the Tympani/Neo8, but it was not making a notceable difference there. Just never had to push that much power into the upper drivers.
The Carver amp (sunfire) actually had one big plus in that though it didn't get the top notch performance at low and medium power output, it sounded just the same at very high power. Similar in that way to the performance of better class D amps today. Comparing price tags, the Carver was just too great a bargain in its power range.
Hi John,
What amp is in that pic ..? You sold on the 250, but u just got it ...:)
The amp in the pic is the KSA-50 in an Aleph Style chassis - the chassis / quad of heatsinks are 14" x 10" with 2.5' long fins each...that's why I am able to biased it to the hilt - and this still gets 140F (hand on for five seconds before real pain - just the way Nelson does it)+ / - 36VDC rails, two 56kuf caps per rail, three pairs of Toshiba 2SC5200 / 2SA1943 output transistors....and a 1.2KVA transformer. Biased to 1 amp per output device (649mv across .649 ohm emitter resistors)
I VOID WARRANTIES
Edits: 10/08/14 10/08/14 10/08/14
They might have sounded "strained" but they weren't strained. The Krell's could convert (large amounts, but not efficiently) AC line power to speaker power as well as any amplifier. The previous owner of my house used 1 ohm Scintillas and had trouble using a KSA-250 with those......until I diagnosed the problem for him. After a visit by a local electrician who wired a dedicated 20-amp circuit for the amplifier there was no more issue. :) I'm surprised how many people didn't read the owner's manual for the Krell's and didn't understand supply power requirements for these big amplifiers. And of course, the KSA amplifier are not even the most power hungry of the Krell offerings.I suspect many Apogee users utilizing the necessary amplifiers are hindering their performance this way and not realizing it.
Cheers,
Dave.
Edits: 10/05/14
The large high end demo room was over 20' wide and about 30' long and had treated walls. I don't think they had any miscues on wiring since the building was remodeled to suit the store. The KSA 250 was the usual choice to demo the big Apogees. It did sound strained playing very loud on the Diva and Scintilla (4 ohm I think, I don't remember if I got the chance to hear them wired in 1 ohm). The mini Grand seemed easier to drive and nearly impossible to set up as I never saw it in the same place twice.
Re the Classe - the DR 3 VHC was actually designed to drive 1 ohm Scintillas and was pretty much the right match by all accounts. Great amps.
Bridged on Scintillas even better...but a Sphinx Project 16 on the Scinnies put the Classes in the shade.
Apart from that, I think the Classé DR 3 VHC is a real beauty!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
I think the DR-3 was the only piece of Classe gear I ever really liked, but I liked it a LOT. :)
There was a different woofer cutting configuration on some of the Scintillas which made them not reconfigurable to 4 ohm. They were 1 ohm with no way to change. My friends Scintilla's were this configuration.
An incredibly power hungry speaker that could create voltage drops (with inefficient amplifiers) in any building/home wiring scheme. I'm not sure if that was the issue in the demo room you auditioned, but suspect it was a contributing factor.
All of these big amplifiers should have been configured for 240VAC operation with no option to change. That would have forced users to give more serious thought to the input power requirements for these watteaters.
Dave.
I didn't do a 240V circuit but I did do 4 25 amp circuits 3 for the stereo ( I actually use 2). I wanted the dedicated circuits but only took the plunge because I was tired of finding my way in the dark to turn off the amps and find the fuse box to flip it back on. No way to listen to music.
I take your point that even if the dealer's building was purpose wired they might still have sagged regardless of the amp's performance. I only heard the big Apogees with KMA monos a handful of times and I didn't have control of the volume so it never got the "loudness test" but they went rather loud without the strain heard on the 250 stereo amp.
I met Jason Bloom once years ago at a grand opening celebration of a local audio salon, who, not coincidentally, were also Apogee dealers. Well, I didn't so much meet him as I just shook his hand and said hello, but the Stages were new then and he'd brought along a pair to demo to those assembled. I remember him launching into a short monologue about how enamored he was with Classe amps and the way they sounded with his stuff and he was driving the Stages with this huge lump of Classe metal. It did sound good.
Opus 33 1/3
I'd wager it wouldn't
Someday when I get my fix together, I want to put the 1000ASP on the bass and the KSA-50 on the Mid/tweet...worked a treat on the T-IVa, why not on the scinnies?
I VOID WARRANTIES
Two people would have been required to help me move them, but even more importantly, to buy them.
Opus 33 1/3
I had long ago decided not to buy equipment I can't move on my own. That is why after doing the Neo8 mod on my Tympani I am not tempted by Apogees, Giant Krell and Pass class A amps etc..
Yeah, I have read that some have had some great results with tubes on Apogees.
But that would exclude the Scintilla 1 Ohm version I imagine... Or?
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the post and i found your comparision of the two to be spot on , maggies do tend to be light on dynamics .
I do indeed love my Duetta Sig's, especially after I upgraded the crossovers (new caps & resistors, potted inductors). I run mine with a McCormack DNA500, which certainly has the balls to make them SLAM when necessary. I've heard them with powerful tube amps and that does improve on the palpability of the mids and vocals, but seems to sacrifice some of that iron grip/control that SS brings to the table. Tradeoffs.
But no matter what system I listen to at shows or elsewhere, I always come back and smile when I turn on my own system and hear the Apogees sing.
A gentleman is best defined as someone who knows how to play the accordion ... and doesn't.
Love Apogees, wish I had an opportunity to have a second pair of speakers in my room. Enjoy!
Must admit, the Duetta (all versions) was the only Apogee in the bunch (pure ribbon/planar models only) that I never warmed to.
Now the Scintilla? WOW! :)
Of course, the Scintilla is even heavier than the Duetta...
1Ω mode or they're just big speakers. The drawback is that they made amps into light and heat shows in the 1Ω mode.
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
They also gave double hernia's when moving them.
there's no way to really 'grip' em; kinda like lifting a slab of 80 lb marble and attempting to move it about.
Many feel the Scintilla's are no doubt the holy grail. I regret not hearing a pair from the same gentleman who sold me the Duettas. I was living overseas at the time he got them and when I returned home he had already sold them.
The dynamics are pretty much why I always liked the Apogees better than Maggies and ESLs. Your impression is similar to mine. I think the push pull mids in the 20.1 improve dynamics greatly over the 3.x models and I presume the older 20. I didn't get the impression that there was that much difference between my T-4 and 20.1 in bass dynamics, but mids were definitely better on the 20.1 - though still not at Apogee levels. The Neo8 array easily did that Apogee dynamics and then some as it can go louder.
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