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In Reply to: RE: Sound ... posted by Davy on September 14, 2014 at 15:21:07
I only shipped my 3.3s a few thousand miles to the factory and back, but my impression was that, when shipped in the Maggie boxes and with the protective stips on the ribbons, they seemed to be very robust. I bought new boxes from Magnepan for mine to go on their journey.
Follow Ups:
Yes you are right the cartons are quite sturdy, but when I sold my Tympani IVas the courier literally threw the cartons into the van like they were pieces of junk, despite fragile warning being all order the boxes. Roger and Satie both had shipping damage with theirs and this sort of handling can be what causes it. Potluck to some extent I guess.
I'd obviously much rather pick up a set of 20s than get them shipped, just can't find a single person in the UK that owns a pair. I'd be particulalry worried about 20s in shipping as the weight of the carton is high and double that of the 3 series,- around 200 lbs.
Davy,your writing in quotation marks.
“Perhaps I should have said that the 20 series has a "near" level of performance to Tympani level performance in a smaller package. I acknowledge the Tympani has a larger bass panel radiating area, which is certainly advantageous, but as the bass crossover is set to a higher frequency the position of the bass drivers is given away more easily which makes it harder to get the to work in a small room. Roger said that older Tympani III is one of the best Tympanos for a smaller room as the bass crossover is set significantly lower and is 4th order not 3rd order (which also helps),. No ribbon tweeter though of course. I guess you could play around with the IVa bass crossover somehow if you were biamping or triamping.”
Yes, Tympani level performance in a smaller package is probably what Magnepan wanted to offer. Tympanis are very large.
So far, I have limited experience of the Tympani Iva as they were damaged in shipping. I will give you more information later when I have finished them. They will certainly not be like original T-IVas.
My Tympani IIIA worked really well in small rooms but their imaging were far from what we hear from later Magnepans. I later modified mine and that took them to a higher level. They came without crossover bass-midrange. I used a forth order active line level crossover at 100 Hz. Unfortunenatly the first order midrange-tweeter reduced the sweet spot to much. I put the speakers in storage due to limited space but I still have them, now just the bare drivers in a sturdy box/crate. The T-IVa bass drivers are also in sturdy. Surprising how little change to the technology between there is between IIIA and IVa bass drivers.
“The 20 series has push pull bass drivers, which in theory is advantageous in terms of dynamics and punch, but yes the radiating area is less,- probably around 2/3s of the IVa.”
In theory, yes. But I am not sure they are that different from the others from Magnepan. There is a sort of “family” sound. The Apgoee is really doing fine without push-pull technology.
“Listening to speakers in different rooms does make it hard to give accurate comparisons, due to slight differences in room dimensions and room/floor ceiling construction differences, and furnishings etc. Even if two rooms appear to be the same sort of size they can sound very different. Also a shame the dealer did not let you listen to the MG20 as loud as you'd have liked”
“I would be very interested to hear from someone who has heard both the IVa and a 20 series in exactly the same room and same setup. “
Different rooms and setups can play an important role in judging audio equipment. A friend has a set of refurbished T-IV and a set of MG20.1. He is located in Germany, I have not heard them at his home.
“The different crossovers also impart some significant differences. The tympani IVa crossover is quite similar to the MGIIIa crossover, in that its voiced to have quite an "upfront" sound with quite a lot of output in the presence region. The 20 and 20.1 crossovers in comparison have a slight dip in that area, which (in my opinion) makes long term listening more pleasent. That would account for some difference in audition, you might have been very used to the way the IVas are voiced which could have been a factor in your opinion of the 20s. If I had kept my set of IVas I would likely altered the crossover slopes to voice things a little less aggressively.”
The Tympani IV had more of an “upfront” sound but back then, before digital, it could be counteracted with the right cartridge and amplification.
“Yes you are right the cartons are quite sturdy, but when I sold my Tympani IVas the courier literally threw the cartons into the van like they were pieces of junk, despite fragile warning being all order the boxes. Roger and Satie both had shipping damage with theirs and this sort of handling can be what causes it. Potluck to some extent I guess.”
Shipping long distances involves a bit of handling, in my case three different carriers, all blaming each other… In my case the midrange/tweeter panels had damages, MDF broken and “corrugated” Mylar on the midrange drivers. One of the bass drivers had loose crossbars (just glued on the perforated sheet metal). Midrange drivers will soon be back from repair, new Mylar and foil conductors (as 20-series).
“I'd obviously much rather pick up a set of 20s than get them shipped, just can't find a single person in the UK that owns a pair. I'd be particulalry worried about 20s in shipping as the weight of the carton is high and double that of the 3 series,- around 200 lbs.”
Shipping Weight: 285 lbs for a pair of 20.1 with accessory packages. I think the MG20’s use come in five boxes, main panels in two, ribbon tweeters in two and feet/crossovers in one. The problem is that they well be handled badly when not strapped to a pallet or cased in a protective box/crate. It is a must to force the carriers to use a fork lift. Well, a fork lift can cause damages too…
Hi Roger,
Its a disgrace that you didn't get any compensation for the damage to your IVas in transit. That was significant damage and a real shame. From the USA is a long way, so I guess that was part of the problem. the longer the distance with more handling, the greater the risk of damage.I didn't realise the MG20s came in five boxes. Wow. So the ribbons cages are put in separate boxes? Bit of a pain to have to install them but I guess it's safer. I would not feel happy with a courier throwing a tweeter box around. You are right you probably need to put everything in a crate/palate to force them to use a fork lift.
Would be very interested to hear your thoughts if you visit the friend in Germany with both the 20.1s and IVas. Which does he prefer himself?
Edits: 09/16/14
Ribbon tweeter boxes.
Thanks for the pics Roger. I wonder if the MG20 is the same as the 20.1 in this case?
With the padding and everything I guess the likelihood of it being damage is less when the courier treats it like a javelin!
Thanks for your input on the IVa/20 series differences. I think the difference in voicing of the different stock crossovers is quite a big issue when it comes to comparisons actually. Though I have not heard them both but I would suspect it makes them sound quite different and for different tastes, which might make it hard to judge which is best. I think they would need a more similar crossover installed to make easier comparisons.
For me personally I preferred something slightly laid back, maybe very slightly U shaped. If I have some Tympani IVas I would probably do as you are planning and put a 18 6 12 12 style crossover in them based on the MG20.1 crossover, and with a slight dip in the presence region. Perhaps some extra volume capabilities could come from using 18 12 12 12 (which is stock) but only if you're in a big room and listen loud.
So is the stock Tympani IIIa crossover also 4th order in the bass?, or just the crossover you used?
I would not mind finding and restoring a dead set of Tympanis again (even the non ribbon versions) to give them another go (with mylar in tact). Hard to find in the UK though. Not seen any for about 3 years.
When I replaced my ribbons alone, they, too are shipped in PVC pipes/tube as shown, although not when shipping the speaker as a whole.
Yes Tympanis are becomming rare. The Tympani IIIA (and IIIB) came without crossover bass to midrange. Suggested crossover frequency 100 Hz. I have been using 3rd and 4th order active line level crossovers. These basses have copper wiring and they are really not very good at higher frequencies. The midrange have the same size Mylar, 9"x57", and go down to about 60 Hz. I used them without the basses for several months. The have a lowest tuning frequency on par with the 1.6. If I get them working again, a low pass of 24 dB/octave at 80-100 Hz could suit well. High pass for the mids could probably be 6 dB/octave.
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