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I have a couple of audio buddies with interest in Maggies, including one who considered the MG-20.x a few years ago but decided not to because he felt his room was too small. So having heard and been impressed by Green Lantern's MG-20s I ask to bring my friends over to audition them. GL graciously invited us and my friends were delighted by his system. So "thanks" for providing the audition Green Lantern.However, a question came up between songs during the audition. What are the basic differences in the MG 1.x, 3.x, and 20.x as they've evolved from say the .1 to the .6 to the .7? Any differences in the drivers? It seems the crossovers are the most likely differences. If so, in Green Lantern's case he is utilizing an external Marchand crossover, would there be any difference if he owned 20.1 or 20.7 in place or the earlier MG-20s?
"You can’t know what the “best” is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn’t any such thing." HP
Edits: 09/12/14Follow Ups:
GLs system with original MG20s sounds really great.
Read a post on this forum in the past (can't find it offhand) from a guy who upgraded from MG20 to 20.1 but preferred the midrange on the original MG20. It's possible that the push pull midrange of the 20.1 causes this to an extant as the magnets are in the way, but the slightly different 20.1 crossover is also a little less prominent in the mids. (At lead electrically)
There is considerable change in both crossovers and some specs of drivers from 3.6 to .3.7 in the 3 series and similar in the 20 series. (20.1 to 20.7). The crossover is all first order in the 3.7 and 20.7 which is difficult to do without IMD. Making this work involves changing the driver tension (and maybe sensitivity too, not sure about that) , and the 3.7 and 20.7 also use lighter QR aluminium foil instead of heavier aluminium wires in the old models (though the 20.1 has QR midrange), so yes the drivers are quite different. The 3.7i and 20.7 are probably quite a bit better (not heard them myself. ) but the prices are higher!
To Green Lantern , just wanted to ask. Have you ever had any delam problems with your MG20s? Would love to get a pair (or 20.1s) but am in the UK and there is no way to send back to Magnepan for repair.
Just a question for YOU, Davy.
Is the length of the wire/ ribbon on the driver the same between 20.1 and 20.7, for example?
Is the resistance the same?
If yes, I'd say the same amount of aluminum was involved. Just squished flat in the .7 case. I'll bet the amount of wire is within GRAMS between drivers. The foil just looks lighter, or like it SHOULD be lighter, maybe?
I've HEARD GL's 20s and the setup is no-compromise, which is a BIG help. The net effect is AWESOME and I suspect would answer many 'would it fit?' questions I see here on a regular basic. The answer is a probable 'yes', but at what cost in utility of space? You can do nearly anything is a personal listening space and get away with it.
Too much is never enough
I'm not sure of the exact specs of the 20.1 vs 20.7 drivers, as I don't think anyone has measured a 20.7.Yes sorry I am probably talking nonsense about the foil being lighter. It does have other advantages though, like better adhesion, and better damping of the diaphragm.
I think the MG20 midrange (though single ended, not push pull like in the MG20.1 and 20.7) still uses the QR foil. I had intended to rewire the mids of either my 3.3Rs or MGIIIas with foil (I have 3 spools I bought from Magnepan 3 years ago), but I have not got around to it yet. If I ever do it I'll post about the difference. (but I might not bother actually as I'd rather sell both and get a 20 or 20.1)
I had some Tympani IVas for a while (which I completely rewired, a 1 month job) and those were problematic in a small room as the bass crossover is set quite high and the bass was too directional when you were sitting close to them. Just didn't sound right. You need a big room for them. That's why I like the 20 series. Although they are big the bass crossover is lower and hence the bass is less directional, so I think they could actually work OK in a smaller room if necessary (even though it's obviously not optimal). They 20s have a Tympani level of performance in a higher but "smaller" overall package.
Edits: 09/15/14
I think not. In the Tyympani IV-A the bass panels can go anywhere in the room that can be placed distantly from the T/M. Although the 20's bass driver is most probably superior to that of the IV-A, in the latter there are two different drivers themselves contained in two separate but adjoining panels. Therefore the wave front arises from a much larger area, whereas in the 20.X, they are squished into a much smaller area. (Magnepan probably did that because due to their smaller footprint, they could accommodate a greater number of customers and possibly improved better WAF, as well. I lived with the IV-A for ~20 years and in 2 completely different listening rooms (both size and furnishings). I auditioned the 20 when it first appeared and IIRC there were certain things I very much like about it and in other areas, I felt they were lesser than to the IV-A. Of course, the last statement is nearly meaningless because they were heard in the dealer's showroom (which was quite large and with many components and speakers as well). Although I listened within an well insulated isolated room alone by myself, the dealer was adamant in that I not play them loud, (at least not as loud as I did play my Tympanis at times, a restriction which I did not care for believing that possibly they were more susceptible to damage).
Perhaps I should have said that the 20 series has a "near" level of performance to Tympani level performance in a smaller package. I acknowledge the Tympani IVa has a larger bass panel radiating area, which is certainly advantageous, but as the bass crossover is set to a higher frequency the position of the bass drivers is given away more easily which makes it harder to get the to work in a small room. Roger said that older Tympani III is one of the best Tympanis for a smaller room as the bass crossover is set significantly lower and is 4th order not 3rd order (which also helps),. No ribbon tweeter though of course. I guess you could play around with the IVa bass crossover somehow if you were biamping or triamping.The 20 series has push pull bass drivers, which in theory is advantageous in terms of dynamics and punch, but yes the radiating area is less,- probably around 2/3s of the IVa.
Listening to speakers in different rooms does make it hard to give proper comparisons, due to slight differences in room dimensions and room/floor ceiling construction differences, and furnishings etc. Even if two rooms appear to be the same sort of size they can sound very different. Also a shame the dealer did not let you listen to the MG20 as loud as you'd ahev liked
I would be very interested to hear from someone who has heard both the IVa and a 20 series in exactly the same room and same setup.
The different crossovers also impart some significant differences. The Tympani IVa crossover is quite similar to the MGIIIa crossover, in that its voiced to have quite an "upfront" sound with quite a lot of output in the presence region. The 20 and 20.1 crossovers in comparison have a slight dip in that area, which (in my opinion) makes long term listening more pleasant. That would also certainly account for some difference in audition, you might have been very used to the way your IVas were voiced which could have been a factor in your opinion of the 20s. Someone might prefer the IVas if they prefer a more upfront sound and the 20s if they preferred a smoother, more relaxed balance. Personally, if I had kept my set of IVas I would likely altered the crossover slopes to voice things a little less aggressively.
Edits: 09/16/14
Thanks for your informed reply. The presentation (alone) afforded by the stock IV-A has spoiled me for other speakers.
Yes I think a lot of that comes from the forward/more aggressive voicing of the IVa stock crossover which you obviously like (and many other people too). The only other ribbon Magnepan voiced like that is the MGIIIa (the crossover is pretty similar to the IVa). It's too upfront for me but you'd probably love it.The 3.3, 3.5 and 3.6 models in comparison have a big localized dip in the presence region (the mid LP is 3rd order) and these are even more laid back and relaxed sounding, more so than the even the 20 series.
The Stock 3.3R crossover was way too relaxed sounding even for me and I could actually audibly hear the dip that's visible on the crossover electrical response.I have not heard them but I suspect the stock tonality of either the 20 or 20.1 would probably be perfect for me.
Edits: 09/16/14
It is true that the 3.6 has been criticized for having a laid back midrange. I think it is also partly a question of what listening distance is used. There are certainly differencies in rooms in different countries that can play a role.
Yes the 3.6 also has a dip, but I don't think its quite as much as the dip with the 3.5 and 3.3. It was very audible for me with the 3.3R.
Yes I think listening distance and listening volume also play a role. The slightly u shaped balance is probably better for quieter listening.
The thinnest foil they have is equal to AWG 32.
No delam issues yet (knock on wood) although I did hear some weird 'rattling' a few months back; I attribute that to my tube amps running out of steam; never to be heard again (getting rid of the cd helped too!). But ask me tommorow around this time because today we were pushing the envelope hitting 80db peaks with complex orchestral arraignments :) ! But even then, no problems.The previous owner lived in L.A. but far enough inland away from the Ocean air and the sea water it carries. How were they kept in his home? Who ever knows? I do know he was a Maggie fan for a long time and knew enough about em' (more than the average Joe) so I would like to think they were kept away from direct, intense Sunlight.
Myself, they're kept in a dark room most of the time but-if I don't keep the window draped they will get hit with direct Sunlight around 4pm. However this is rare since I drink coffee in the same room before I leave work (it's dark outside during that time and the window curtains are always closed).
Edits: 09/12/14 09/12/14 09/12/14
Thanks for the info. Well that's quite encouraging, and if I remember right you've had them for quite a few years without trouble.
I still don't know if I could ever risk buying a pair in Europe due to this issue. If you get buzzing then how are you ever going to repair them? I doubt anyone but Magnepan can do it properly (adjusting the panel tension properly etc when reassembling)
"The 3.7i and 20.7 are probably quite a bit better (not heard them myself"
Remember newer is not always better no matter what the high end magazines say.
Alan
Yes that can often be true, and in this case if it isn't I'm willing to hope that's the case!
I've not had the chance (or the cojones!) to investigate the changes in the X/O's between the three 20.x models, but there is a noticeable difference in their sonic signatures. Personally, I really like the 20s & 20.1s - they exemplify what I think is best about the Magnepan sound - but I was not wowed by the 20.7s. It may be that the set-up I demo-ed wasn't ideal, but I've subsequently discovered the ".7" sound - across the range - is an acquired taste.
I did not prefer (unbroken-in) 3.7s nor 20.1s to my bi-amped 3.3s at all. My listening time and music selection for the 20s was limited (but they had those huge AR tube amps driving them).
I still think that the x.7s are for those who do not want to bother with bi-amping, but otherwise do not compare to a bi-amped set up.
But coherence is not my top priority and I suspect that the x.7s may do that better.
I like what you are saying! Perhaps I will look for a used 20 or 20.1 even though i'm in Europe.
The .7 range are substantially different in their crossovers and driver config. Might not be for everyone. It's all driven around making the entire speaker first order which is hard to achieve successfully. I'm not surprised it sounds quite different.
On a side note. Does anyone have experience of both the 20 and 20.1 in the same system?(maybe someone who upgraded to the 20.1?) and if so which one sounds better?
Hi Davy,
First consider that I've not heard the 20.7 and a couple of times I listened to the 20.1 was a few years ago.
But my initial reaction the first time I heard Green Lantern's MG 20s was this - what an outstanding speaker system and for anyone with an adequate size room they represent an amazing bargain. They are so good that since I don't remember/know what improvements the 20.1 or 20.7 might offer, without hearing that direct comparison I could be vey happy with the 20s.
A better question might be do you want to continue on the equipment merry-go-round or could you be contented simply enjoying your music from a very fine system?
"You can’t know what the “best” is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn’t any such thing." HP
How would you compare to
Your Janszens
3.6 or 3.7? I think you heard my 3.6 a couple of years ago.
I've not heard the 3.7 so no answer to that.
The simple answer for the 3.6 is that I favor the Janszens far more. I've heard a few pairs of 3.6 and I find the more solid upper bass/lower mids, the deeper and more impactful bass, the detail and tonal correctness of the mids, the dynamics and quickness of the electrostatics, and the extension (within my limited hearing) of the tweeter all result in a more satisfying musical presentation for my tastes. I also like the spaciousness attained without needing to bring the speakers so far forward into the room. Add to this a wider selection of amps (higher power ranges are not demanded), that bi-amping will never be a temptation, and for my needs a subwoofer is unnecessary, and that pretty much sealed the deal.
In case you, or anyone else reading this, missed my zA2.1 review I've attached the link.
Lastly, hope you can make one of the Panel Days that Green Lantern talks about.
"You can’t know what the “best” is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn’t any such thing." HP
Sounds great. I would like to hear the Jansens someday.
I have not heard them in the same room or setup. There is probably a difference but for me the lower priced used 3.6 with the possiblity for biamping through a line level crossover was more attractive. 5000 Euros cheaper that way!
Edits: 09/16/14
After bi-amping I would never go back, that alone would point me to a 3.6 or 20.1.
BINGO
Too much is never enough
Good point. I think either the 20 or 20.1 would stop the merry go round for me. Would just need to get some decent stands and good amps and I'd be sorted for a long time. The crossover setups in them look good enough (in terms of the values etc, not the parts!) for you not to have any obvious problem so you could do great with biamping and no major real need to modify them unless you want to triamp.
Would be interested to get some more views from people who have heard both the 20/20.1 and the 20.7, not that it really matters for me as I could never afford the 20.7, but I am just curious to know and to hear real people's views, not magazine reviewers.
should be that there can never be a consensus opinion. Just consider how long the debate has raged over tubes (valves) VS SS, analog VS digital, and dynamic drivers VS horns VS planar.
So I'm sure if you did find comments they would come from both sides of the fence - 20.7 VS earlier 20s. I'm not suggesting that comments from others are not helpful, rather that they can only add a few bricks to your knowledge foundation, most will still need to come from you. Tastes, rooms, budgets, etc. are simply too individual. So since you say you can "never afford the 20.7", why tempt yourself? That may only lead to discontent if you liked them well enough.
What's the old Irish saying? "Better to deal with the devil you know than one you haven't met yet?"
"You can’t know what the “best” is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn’t any such thing." HP
I've heard them both (& the 20.7s) - but not all in my own system. I opted for the 20.1's as I liked their sound best (but I would have been happy with the 20's if that's what was available to me). I can't speak for the situation in Europe (& it may vary by country), but in general terms (& esp. if you can ship from the US without prohibitive cost) you've hit the perfect moment to pick up some 20.1's at a good price as there are quite a few on the market - I presume because their owners are upgrading to the 20.7s.
Carpe dipole!
Thanks a lot for the info. What did you slightly prefer about the 20.1 over the 20?
Apart from the push pull midrange change, the crossover is slightly different but v similar. I would probably expect the 20.1 to have slightly better bass extension and a slightly more relaxed midrange (which can be a good thing for non fatiguing sound in my experience)
It's really not practical to ship from the USA to Europe. Way too expensive for shipping as the weight and dinesnsions are so high. I backed out if buying so e 2.6s from the USA a few years back as the shipping was about $100 and they are under half the weight if the 20s. I'd also seriously be worried about the being chucked around in shipping. Which is a very common thing with couriers. Customs charges would also be high. They do turn up within Europe but the prices are quite high. Don't know if I would want to risk shipping even from elsewhere in Europe.
Been looking a pair within the UK (where I could collect) but can't find anything at all. Not sure if many, (or even any) were ever sold here.
When you say Europe, do you mean continental Europe or the UK? I've seen 20.1s & 20.7s advertised in Germany & France but don't remember seeing any for sale from the UK (though I haven't really been as actively looking since I got my pair). I would agree with EmailTim's point, I think that 20.1s are in the sweet spot of value/price/age at the moment. Of course, that may equation may be different if there's very few in your market ...
Yes unfortunately I'm in the UK. There doesn't seem to be any 20 series here at all, been looking for months, but I will keep looking. They do seem to come up in Germany quite regularly. One other option is to drive through the channel tunnel in a big estate car or van to pick up a pair from elsewhere in Europe (like Germany or France) and drive back, but unfortunately I don't drive and I'm not sure any friends of mine would be willing to do that! It's one option to bear in mind I guess.
Prices are much higher in Europe than the USA. To put it in perspective I saw a set of MG20s recently in Holland for 4300 Euros, which is about $5700. Too much money to spend on a set of speakers which could fail with dealm and no easy way to get them repaired.
A late pair of 20.1s might be more reliable and a safer bet, so I will keep my eyes open.
I only shipped my 3.3s a few thousand miles to the factory and back, but my impression was that, when shipped in the Maggie boxes and with the protective stips on the ribbons, they seemed to be very robust. I bought new boxes from Magnepan for mine to go on their journey.
Yes you are right the cartons are quite sturdy, but when I sold my Tympani IVas the courier literally threw the cartons into the van like they were pieces of junk, despite fragile warning being all order the boxes. Roger and Satie both had shipping damage with theirs and this sort of handling can be what causes it. Potluck to some extent I guess.
I'd obviously much rather pick up a set of 20s than get them shipped, just can't find a single person in the UK that owns a pair. I'd be particulalry worried about 20s in shipping as the weight of the carton is high and double that of the 3 series,- around 200 lbs.
Davy,your writing in quotation marks.
“Perhaps I should have said that the 20 series has a "near" level of performance to Tympani level performance in a smaller package. I acknowledge the Tympani has a larger bass panel radiating area, which is certainly advantageous, but as the bass crossover is set to a higher frequency the position of the bass drivers is given away more easily which makes it harder to get the to work in a small room. Roger said that older Tympani III is one of the best Tympanos for a smaller room as the bass crossover is set significantly lower and is 4th order not 3rd order (which also helps),. No ribbon tweeter though of course. I guess you could play around with the IVa bass crossover somehow if you were biamping or triamping.”
Yes, Tympani level performance in a smaller package is probably what Magnepan wanted to offer. Tympanis are very large.
So far, I have limited experience of the Tympani Iva as they were damaged in shipping. I will give you more information later when I have finished them. They will certainly not be like original T-IVas.
My Tympani IIIA worked really well in small rooms but their imaging were far from what we hear from later Magnepans. I later modified mine and that took them to a higher level. They came without crossover bass-midrange. I used a forth order active line level crossover at 100 Hz. Unfortunenatly the first order midrange-tweeter reduced the sweet spot to much. I put the speakers in storage due to limited space but I still have them, now just the bare drivers in a sturdy box/crate. The T-IVa bass drivers are also in sturdy. Surprising how little change to the technology between there is between IIIA and IVa bass drivers.
“The 20 series has push pull bass drivers, which in theory is advantageous in terms of dynamics and punch, but yes the radiating area is less,- probably around 2/3s of the IVa.”
In theory, yes. But I am not sure they are that different from the others from Magnepan. There is a sort of “family” sound. The Apgoee is really doing fine without push-pull technology.
“Listening to speakers in different rooms does make it hard to give accurate comparisons, due to slight differences in room dimensions and room/floor ceiling construction differences, and furnishings etc. Even if two rooms appear to be the same sort of size they can sound very different. Also a shame the dealer did not let you listen to the MG20 as loud as you'd have liked”
“I would be very interested to hear from someone who has heard both the IVa and a 20 series in exactly the same room and same setup. “
Different rooms and setups can play an important role in judging audio equipment. A friend has a set of refurbished T-IV and a set of MG20.1. He is located in Germany, I have not heard them at his home.
“The different crossovers also impart some significant differences. The tympani IVa crossover is quite similar to the MGIIIa crossover, in that its voiced to have quite an "upfront" sound with quite a lot of output in the presence region. The 20 and 20.1 crossovers in comparison have a slight dip in that area, which (in my opinion) makes long term listening more pleasent. That would account for some difference in audition, you might have been very used to the way the IVas are voiced which could have been a factor in your opinion of the 20s. If I had kept my set of IVas I would likely altered the crossover slopes to voice things a little less aggressively.”
The Tympani IV had more of an “upfront” sound but back then, before digital, it could be counteracted with the right cartridge and amplification.
“Yes you are right the cartons are quite sturdy, but when I sold my Tympani IVas the courier literally threw the cartons into the van like they were pieces of junk, despite fragile warning being all order the boxes. Roger and Satie both had shipping damage with theirs and this sort of handling can be what causes it. Potluck to some extent I guess.”
Shipping long distances involves a bit of handling, in my case three different carriers, all blaming each other… In my case the midrange/tweeter panels had damages, MDF broken and “corrugated” Mylar on the midrange drivers. One of the bass drivers had loose crossbars (just glued on the perforated sheet metal). Midrange drivers will soon be back from repair, new Mylar and foil conductors (as 20-series).
“I'd obviously much rather pick up a set of 20s than get them shipped, just can't find a single person in the UK that owns a pair. I'd be particulalry worried about 20s in shipping as the weight of the carton is high and double that of the 3 series,- around 200 lbs.”
Shipping Weight: 285 lbs for a pair of 20.1 with accessory packages. I think the MG20’s use come in five boxes, main panels in two, ribbon tweeters in two and feet/crossovers in one. The problem is that they well be handled badly when not strapped to a pallet or cased in a protective box/crate. It is a must to force the carriers to use a fork lift. Well, a fork lift can cause damages too…
Hi Roger,
Its a disgrace that you didn't get any compensation for the damage to your IVas in transit. That was significant damage and a real shame. From the USA is a long way, so I guess that was part of the problem. the longer the distance with more handling, the greater the risk of damage.I didn't realise the MG20s came in five boxes. Wow. So the ribbons cages are put in separate boxes? Bit of a pain to have to install them but I guess it's safer. I would not feel happy with a courier throwing a tweeter box around. You are right you probably need to put everything in a crate/palate to force them to use a fork lift.
Would be very interested to hear your thoughts if you visit the friend in Germany with both the 20.1s and IVas. Which does he prefer himself?
Edits: 09/16/14
Ribbon tweeter boxes.
Thanks for the pics Roger. I wonder if the MG20 is the same as the 20.1 in this case?
With the padding and everything I guess the likelihood of it being damage is less when the courier treats it like a javelin!
Thanks for your input on the IVa/20 series differences. I think the difference in voicing of the different stock crossovers is quite a big issue when it comes to comparisons actually. Though I have not heard them both but I would suspect it makes them sound quite different and for different tastes, which might make it hard to judge which is best. I think they would need a more similar crossover installed to make easier comparisons.
For me personally I preferred something slightly laid back, maybe very slightly U shaped. If I have some Tympani IVas I would probably do as you are planning and put a 18 6 12 12 style crossover in them based on the MG20.1 crossover, and with a slight dip in the presence region. Perhaps some extra volume capabilities could come from using 18 12 12 12 (which is stock) but only if you're in a big room and listen loud.
So is the stock Tympani IIIa crossover also 4th order in the bass?, or just the crossover you used?
I would not mind finding and restoring a dead set of Tympanis again (even the non ribbon versions) to give them another go (with mylar in tact). Hard to find in the UK though. Not seen any for about 3 years.
When I replaced my ribbons alone, they, too are shipped in PVC pipes/tube as shown, although not when shipping the speaker as a whole.
Yes Tympanis are becomming rare. The Tympani IIIA (and IIIB) came without crossover bass to midrange. Suggested crossover frequency 100 Hz. I have been using 3rd and 4th order active line level crossovers. These basses have copper wiring and they are really not very good at higher frequencies. The midrange have the same size Mylar, 9"x57", and go down to about 60 Hz. I used them without the basses for several months. The have a lowest tuning frequency on par with the 1.6. If I get them working again, a low pass of 24 dB/octave at 80-100 Hz could suit well. High pass for the mids could probably be 6 dB/octave.
If buying now, I would lean towards a 20.1 over a 20.0 purely based on age and repair reasons. They are not the easiest thing to ship back to Magnepan for repairs.
I have heard both, but not in the same system. Still trying to find a way to listen to a pair of 20.7's.
My pleasure as usual; from searching the archives the biggest fundamental differences between the 20s and the 20.1, 20.7s are: the 20 had double-sided magnets just on the bass panel but the 20.1, 20.7 has them on the mid-panels too. I'm pretty sure the XO Magnepan ships with the 20.1 and 20.7 are quite different as well (hell they'd have to be to justify the increase in price).
Although this wasn't an official 'Planar day'; I'm looking to do one last get together sometime in the fall -this time there will be NO email glitches on my part!
Isnt' it my turn next to host?
Too much is never enough
You did mention that previously; let me know well ahead of time so I can put in for time off at work.
I'm waiting for the weather to 'break' so I can open the house up to the back yard where I can park a cooler and BBQ.
Too much is never enough
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