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Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R

12.30.80.194

I am a long term maggie 3.5R owner and Im interested in an upgrade. (my system is posted here btw: http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/8490.html )

I have auditioned the Kingsound 3s and in the near future going to listen to the 20.7. Honestly these two at over $10,000 is a bit much for me to spend. (a separate subject of course) That would make it very hard to pull the trigger on either one.

For those that have upgraded from this family of maggies (3.X) what did you upgrade to or what would you suggest?

Thanks to everyone in this forum, I have stopped by often for entertainment and information but posted infrequently....

Im all ears!

Follow Ups:

RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - panhead 21:27:50 08/25/14 (0)
Thanks for all the input! Greatly appreciated.
Bi-amping - DustyC 20:48:56 08/24/14 (14)
Really worthwhile on the 3 series. Sweet tube amps on mids, tweets with a beefy SS amp on the bass panel.
- RE: Bi-amping - panhead 21:32:54 08/25/14 (3)
  How much power do you use on the mid/tweets? Just guessing I would think using the same amp (that for me would mean 2 more Cam 200s - and I have seen them at attractive prices) would be more balanced. Let me know what your experience is here as I have never tried this....
  - RE: Bi-amping - Green Lantern 06:33:59 08/30/14 (2)
    I'm totally satisfied with these older VTL 100wpc monos ($700 ea used on ebay) pushing the tweet/mids on my MG20s.
    The Emotivas ($799 ea new sale priced on Emotiva website) churn the bass panels with finesse, speed and ease.
    I listen at around 76db which is more than enough volume in my 17x17 room. However, at that level difficult passages (complex orchestral arraignments) will test the tubes abilities (same for any tube amp).
    Getting up around > 86db or so and it'll lose steam (but that's seriously way louder than I'll ever need in that room).
    
    Highs/lows are split via the Marchand XM44 pictured.
    The Audible Illusion 3A and Oppo DVD are both gone and replaced with simply a Logitech Squeeze play.
    
    Edits: 08/30/14 08/30/14 08/30/14
    - Thanks for the info n/t - panhead 21:09:49 09/10/14 (1)
      n/t
      - RE: Thanks for the info n/t - pictureguy 20:55:33 09/21/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Thanks for the info n/t posted by panhead on September 10, 2014 at 21:09:49
        
        I've heard GLs 20s and can attest to the great sound. terrific, even.
        
        But for biamping you need to know the crossover frequency (s) in order to apportion amp power properly between 'ways'.
        
        My MG1.6s cross about 600hz which is near the 50:50 power need for 'normal' music and so I went with an identical PAIR of STEREO amps. One per panel.
        Too much is never enough
- RE: Bi-amping - EmailTim 09:41:00 08/25/14 (9)
  "Really worthwhile on the 3 series. Sweet tube amps on mids, tweets with a beefy SS amp on the bass panel. "
  
  What about a tube PreAmp and SS Amp(s) to drive the speakers since the (Mid+Tweet) takes about the same amount of power as the Bass panels on the 3.X series? Does this combo work well ?
  - RE: Bi-amping - Satie 09:53:57 08/30/14 (7)
    The 3.x models don't have a 1:1 ratio of top and bass, it is more like 2:3. But many of us like to elevate bass slightly above the mids so being set for 1:2 (top to bass) is useful.
    
    In the 20.x the crossover is set lower so it is more like 1:1, still, the current demand is more on the bass so even there I would like a stronger amp on the bass.
    
    On my tympani in its original form I could just about make it with a 200 WPC @4 ohm amp for the top. The previous amp had less power into 4 ohms and would run out of steam routinely.
    
    In my current variation on the Tympani, the mids are a 96 db sensitive array of Neo8 drivers. I can power the mids with 30 watts triode but for large scale music I still go back to ultralinear at 60 watts. The XO is at 250hz or 300 hz. That is by no means the actual halfway point in the large scale music I listen to. I believe that for most big classical and rock you need the bass to be well more than the theoretical breakeven would imply. I ended up with a pro amp with 2kw/ch into 4ohms. Under unusual circumstances I even clipped that.
    
    So even if the stats indicate you would need a similar power on top as the bass, the bass will fare better with an order of magnitude more power. A 1kw Emotiva monoblock (4ohms) is not that much overkill. a 100W tube amp for the top is a good beginning.
    - RE: Bi-amping - EmailTim 15:50:59 08/30/14 (6)
      "... The 3.x models don't have a 1:1 ratio of top and bass, it is more like 2:3. But many of us like to elevate bass slightly above the mids so being set for 1:2 (top to bass) is useful. ..."
      
      Hi Satie,
      
      This is from the 3.6 manual, Section 11.3:
      
      "Since the effective crossover point for the MG3.6/R is approximately 250Hz, the power requirements for the bass midrange/treble amps are nearly the same. Therefore, use amplifiers of similar power rating. ..."
      
      Is Magnepan and the manual wrong ???
      
      The 20.x panels are crossed over lower, but they also go lower than the 3.X's.
      
      I usually use @ 700 WPC (or more) top and bottom when I biamping my 3.x or 20.x.
      - RE: Bi-amping - Davey 08:31:51 08/31/14 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bi-amping posted by EmailTim on August 30, 2014 at 15:50:59
        
        The nominal 50/50 power distribution point is at 350Hz. If you put your crossover at that point, and you had symmetrical HP/LP electrical crossover slopes, you would need equal power amplifiers for top and bottom.
        
        Cheers,
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Bi-amping - EmailTim 21:32:42 09/01/14 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bi-amping posted by Davey on August 31, 2014 at 08:31:51
        
        Hi Davey,
        
        Is 350Hz for the 3.X, 20.X or [20Hz to 20kHz] range ?
        
        TIA
        
        P.S.
        
        Are you still running dual dipole subs ?
        
        RE: Bi-amping - Davey 22:06:53 09/01/14 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bi-amping posted by EmailTim on September 01, 2014 at 21:32:42
        
        350Hz is approximate for the 20-20khz range. Some would argue it's lower than that. It might be, depending upon the type of music listened to.
        
        Of course, you don't actually achieve the benefits of bi-amping unless the bandwidth is limited upstream of the power amps via a line-level crossover. This could allow the usage of lower-powered amplifiers and still yield the same effective power, or the same powered amplifiers but yield much increased effective power.
        
        I've been using the dual-dipole woofer setup in my primary system for over fifteen years now. :)
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Bi-amping - EmailTim 08:54:07 09/02/14 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bi-amping posted by Davey on September 01, 2014 at 22:06:53
        
        "... 350Hz is approximate for the 20-20khz range. Some would argue it's lower than that. It might be ..."
        I would assume if the speaker can not reproduce the lower octave(s), then the half-way point would change accordingly (i.e. move up).
        "... I've been using the dual-dipole woofer setup in my primary system for over fifteen years now. :) ..."
        I saw your old post and looked up the Adire DPL-12 (fs 16.3) drivers. Looks like they would make good subwoofers. Sorry to read the Adire driver company is no longer in business.
        http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/OldAdireDrivers.pdf
        AdireAudio has closed its doors (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 09/02/14
        
        RE: Bi-amping - Davey 06:34:24 09/03/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bi-amping posted by EmailTim on September 02, 2014 at 08:54:07
        
        Even though the speakers might not be able to reproduce it, the amplifier is still trying to drive it, so that wouldn't shift a "half-way" point unless there was a low-frequency high-pass filter employed ahead of the bass amplifier.
        
        The Adire DPL-12 drivers were ideally suited (Q-wise) to dipole usage with only 6db/octave dipole correction required. However, there are still plenty of drivers that will work effectively. It's mainly about quiet operation and large excursion capability. The necessary equalization can be handled by a variety of electronic solutions.
        
        Dave.
      - RE: Bi-amping - Satie 16:46:26 08/30/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bi-amping posted by EmailTim on August 30, 2014 at 15:50:59
        
        I would say they are wrong if you listen to large scale classical and rock, which have a heavier bass proportion. Furthermore, bass requires serious damping which the upper range is not likely to need.
        
        That said, 700 WPC top and bottom is likely sufficient for the bass unless you have a large room and overkill for the top.
  - RE: Bi-amping - macmagman 12:03:08 08/25/14 (0)
    It does for me!
    
    I'm using a McIntosh C2200 tube pre-amp and 2 Sanders amps, I am done seeking any other combination. The tube pre-amp made a huge difference in the sound.
RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - HiOnFi 15:23:24 08/24/14 (2)
Biwiring is a nice upgrade, as is replacing all the jumpers (XOs and speakers) with high quality jumpers

I am now using my 3.5Rs bass panels only with dynamic speakers out front.

See my thread for pic
- RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - Roger Gustavsson 02:09:30 08/25/14 (1)
  "Biwiring is a nice upgrade, as is replacing all the jumpers (XOs and speakers) with high quality jumpers"
  
  Biwiring is good for those producing/selling cables. Why buying overpriced jumpers that introduce even more joints? Better to reduce the numbers of joints to a minimum, there are quite a few in these speakers/outboard crossover. Solder where possible, far cheaper too. Going for a suitable active crossover replacing the outboard crossover and use four channels of amplification is really an upgrade.
  - RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - HiOnFi 04:00:47 08/25/14 (0)
    Magnepan uses a number of pot metal jumpers on the XO and the speakers
    
    If using the OEM XO it's worth while to upgrade those jumpers
    
    Magnepan designed the XOs so they could be biwired or biamped
    
    To say biwiring is a waste makes no sense. I use Clear Day Pure Silver Cables, the improvement is immediate
RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - Satie 13:24:35 08/24/14 (2)
There are plenty of young 20.1 models on the used market, why not just get one of those? it is far cheaper than a new 20.7 so it won't stretch your wallet.

The 20.7 and big kingsounds and big Genessis, Nola and Legacy (Whisper and Aeris) are probably all better by at least some stretch but they are not a smart choice if your budget will limit you going forward if you get one of these. Upgrade now to a 20.1 then biamp it and you will be past the 20.7 and in the ball park of the others on the list. It would still leave you with a budget for serious subwoofers etc.. The over the next few years figure out what you would want for the next upgrade and save up for it.
- RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - panhead 21:28:14 08/25/14 (0)
  Excellent suggestion.
- RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - EmailTim 19:37:08 08/25/14 (0)
  With your room size, you could definitely move up to a pair of 20.X panels.
  
  Consider a good set of 20.1's if your budget is constrained. You might need some extra power to drive them (or actively biamp).
  
  Room Size (LxWxH): 20 x 35 x 12
RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - macmagman 10:00:39 08/24/14 (0)
I had 3.3's and after the second delam repair I figured it was time for an upgrade. I was ready to pull the trigger on the then new 3.7, then I found 20.1's that were in driving distance and only 4yrs old in new condition and very close to the same price. I never regretted my decision. Without a doubt I would do it again.

I have since activly bi-amped and would never consider going any other way.
RE: Testing the waters - upgrading the 3.5R - ahendler 07:46:31 08/24/14 (0)
Why not the 3.7i?
Alan

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