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In Reply to: RE: Do you believe everything you read? posted by wazoo on March 31, 2014 at 21:24:49
The fact that they choose to be silent causes their customers to come to the worst possible conclusions. Although hardly life threatening as in the case of the big auto sellers, it appears as if being a sin of omission.
Follow Ups:
Yeah, I could agree more. In the absence of information, rumors sprout, and some of them are pretty unflattering to Magnepan. Wendell did tell Steve and me today that there were trade secrets involved. I suggested that they didn't have to give out details, just a general idea that would satisfy people who are wondering what their $500 is buying but wouldn't be of use to a competitor. But without knowing what those trade secrets are, I have no idea whether that would in fact be possible.PS -- I think that if it had been something as simple as a crossover mod, there would have been a kit. This after all is the company that lets you replace your own ribbons and sells you wire and adhesive if you want to redo the diaphragms.
Edits: 04/03/14
They do have some competition in Europe from Analysis and here from Gilmore, though their ribbon is not stretched membrane like ET BG & Maggies and their bass are dipole cones.
Spouse Approval Factor...(The politically correct version of WAF...)
The SAF for 1.7 - 20.7 may have the most influence on sales then any competition....My lovely pair came from gentleman in KY/worked in WV, where they shipped from, whose wife and daughter said they are too big, too ugly and blocked the screen from the side...the only reason he was selling them...bummer for him...
Dynaudio C2's were the 3.7 replacements...nice, but also quite a bit more money...
So, riddle me this...what would a Stereophile set of tests tell the world about the Magnepan design in the .7 era??? From what I can remember, I thought it had to do with their dispersion characteristics??? But really not sure...
thanks
Mark
They would do the standard FR at a couple of distances and for each driver, dispersion plot, and waterfall plot and impulse response.
They would show the resonance tuning freq. what changed with the waterfall plot, which might clue someone as to what kind of improvement was made in the transition from one model to the next.
Their new XO might have a twist to it that we aren't aware of.
Josh...
"I suggested that they didn't have to give out details, just a general idea that would satisfy people who are wondering what their $500 is buying but wouldn't be of use to a competitor"
IMHO...more than a reasonable request...
As the $500 upgraded came out in January sometime, I was going to have it done no matter what, due to the fact shipping was not in the equation for me...the $500 upgrade, reflects aprox 8% of the MSRP...not outrageous IMHO...
For the majority of 3.7 owners have to SHIP their speakers back to MN...this added cost will be more than the upgrade itself...
To make this easy, let's say we are looking a $600 round trip...add this to the cost of the upgrade; it becomes aprox. 20% of the MSRP...IMHO that is a much more significant cost...
I have been contacted offline by two 3.7 owners that were looking for the contact information of Old Dominion and how I got the Magnepan shipping rate....(which I have previously posted...I just ASKED for it and they gave it too me)...see attached...
They quoted me, $271 one way from WV to MN; my actual cost was $226, that included $6000 worth of insurance...the NON-Magnepan rate was $496...one-way...(fyi..the shipping class is 100, when asking for the Magnepan rate)...
As our hobby is full subjectivity, we all understand that no matter what, you will NOT be able to please everyone...I completely disagree with the personal attacks and bashing for the sake of bashing...just not in my nature...and understand WHY many manufactures' choose not to participate on these type of boards...(just wander over to Critics Corner and read what JA puts up with)...the dude takes the high road, when I would have trouble at times doing...anonymity of the internet gives people the opportunity to behave, "as they see fit", good, bad or indifferent...
After getting my RA number yesterday...Shelia checked with Sue in refurbishing/repair on when they would have time to do this...I was told drop them off Tuesday morning and I should have them back by Wednesday or Thursday and would be Friday at the latest...so 24-72 hour turn around...not bad...
I gave Shelia my serial number and she asked me twice to confirm my trim and fabric color, (AL trim, silver...fabric dark gray), this tells me the socks are coming off...most likely being replaced with new fabric as part of the upgrade cost...
As you have been to Magnepan and know that in the repair area, they are capable of just about any of the steps in the manufacturing process...so this is not being upgraded in main production process...which was a fear of mine, since they typically run one model at a time through production...would I have to wait until they are running 3.7's???
That answer is no... which is good news for all 3.7 owners to lesson down time...
The HIFI+ first look was helpful...when some of the dealers thought the improvements were significant enough to warrant a 3.8 designation...I can only guess what kind of frenzy we would have seen on this board...with the history of longevity of model runs...we 3.7 owners bought them thinking we are good for the next 5-10 years...at least I was...
Because this is a first for Magnepan OFFERING an upgrade to a current model...all new 3.7's will have the "I" designation, but yet giving current owners the opportunity to have the latest and greatest...win-win...well as this post has shown, not everyone feels that way...
I do stand behind what I have personally posted on this subject...feel I have been fair minded...stated that I am NOT going to pursue trying get information from any of the production people...not fair to them...
So the real question is....Is this upgrade worth $1200-$2000 shipping included??? For the NON-North American residences...this is a much bigger number.... Would you be money ahead selling your current 3.7's and buying new 3.7i's??? I do not know what the MSRP for the 3.7i's is...
Well, by next weekend I should be able to give my personal take on the upgrade...I am actually starting to get a little excited about the whole thing....
Once again, thank you for your time and consideration on this subject...it does not go unappreciated by this inmate...
thanks
Mark
Greenie----
IT was $1900 SPEAKER. You will not find any 'asylum seeker' who had it. And it was not so much the shipping cost as the shipping danger It was the 3.7 where the change was really necessary, because they were very bright-and without the chance of bi-amping -it was like being caught in the sun without sun screen.
Mark,I think you're right -- the upgrade itself is a good thing and whether people find it worthwhile or not is going to depend on the sonics, and that means your opinion and that of other early adopters will be important.
I still believe that Magnepan has created trouble for themselves unnecessarily. I think many of us who have had dealings with the company over the years know that they're decent folk who have an old-fashioned sense of business ethics. But that's just my personal impression and obviously it carries no weight, as real information about the upgrade would.
I'm sure that Wendell is right when he says that this will blow over as people read reviews like Chris Martens's and get to hear from fellow customers like you, and Wendell just wrote to describe some of the practical problems they have when they release technical information -- the kind of problem that we who aren't in the business would never think of. So they have some real concerns. But still, I think some basic information of the kind most audio manufacturers have traditionally supplied (including Magnepan) would avoid a lot of unnecessary grief.
BTW, I think the new socks are a plot -- no one is going to want to pull up their beautiful new socks to see what's underneath. :-)
Edits: 04/04/14
Josh...
As I have never hidden, my lack of "electronics knowledge", their plot of new socks will keep me out of ripping them open...that is why I posted the question to Waz, (who has no fear factor), see his response within this post...
Yes, they are very decent people...yes, they exhibit old fashioned business ethics...yes, they could have handled this much better IMHO...
And not being part of that industry, I do not understand all their concerns and at this point...I am done guessing...
In the Planar/magnetic design, similar to Magnepan, who is their competition??? Do we include the Electrostatic manufacturers as part of their competition??? IMHO planars and stats are two different animals, that only share; they are both true di-pole speakers designs...
Which brings us back to; "But still, I think some basic information of the kind most audio manufacturers have traditionally supplied (including Magnepan) would avoid a lot of unnecessary grief."
Whether the amount of "grief" is acceptable or not, it is of THEIR own making...one little paragraph on the website, included with their announcement of this upgrade...would have eliminated the majority of grief and potential bad blood; that this code of silence has caused...IMHO...I believe the majority of us owners, would have been satisfied with that...verses just "better"...
Wendell's stance that this will blow over, once they have more professional and customer reviews may well be true...I am not doubting that he does know his customer base; passionate, loyal, neurotic...(at least I am)...but yet somewhat insulting to the current 3.7 owners...IMHO...
Thanks again for jumping in on this..
take care
Mark
Mark, Josh rightly named the Eminent Technology magnetic-planar speakers as the main competition for Magnepan. Are you familiar with them? The LFT-8b uses a sealed 8" dynamic woofer for 180Hz down, with a pair of m-p LFT drivers for 180Hz to 10kHz (that's right: 180Hz-10kHz, with no crossover!), and a ribbon tweeter above that. Not nearly as well known as Magneplanars for some reason (other than few dealers and even fewer reviews ;-), but with a devoted cult following (and rave reviews in the UK press, as well as The Absolute Sound, for what that's worth ;-). $2499/pr.There were earlier, pure magnetic-planar ET models: the LFT-3, LFT-4, and LFT-6, all now collectors items. I own pairs of LFT-4, LFT-8b, and Magneplanar Tympani T-IVa. Love 'em all! If I had a spare 15 grand, I'd buy a pair of Sanders ESL's.
Edits: 06/07/20
I don't think they have much planar competition. There's Eminent Technology, which makes a very good hybrid, and a few smaller companies at both the low and high end of the market. In high end home theater/architectural audio, there's BG and Wisdom Audio, but for the most part their ranges don't overlap.
I suppose their main planar competitor is Martin-Logan, which of course makes ESL's, and some of the mid-priced stats, although in my experience people tend to favor one technology or the other -- they each have tradeoffs. Some technology is common to planars and ESL's, some isn't. For example, diaphragms, tensioning, tuning, damping, baffles, pole pieces and stators -- all similar, and that's where a lot of the black art is. Some of Magnepan's technology would definitely transfer, and vice-versa. But the electronics -- transformers, crossovers, HV power supply, etc. -- are quite different. And then there are the other ESL makers, mostly in the moderately high/high end of the market.
There are other manufacturers of true ribbons as well, often used in hybrid dynamic systems, and the occasional interesting wider range ribbon. But their main planar/ribbon competitor folded years ago. Electronics manufacturers aren't in direct competition so their relationship is essentially synergistic.
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