Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share your ideas and experiences.
Return to Planar Speaker Asylum
174.68.76.189
In Reply to: RE: Difference between 3.7 and 3.7i's posted by Norman M on March 28, 2014 at 11:34:38
Not quite right.
You are taking production time away from making product for full-profit sale.
In manufacturing, one of the MAIN reasons for quality….and building it right FIRST rather than 'Inspecting' and 'fixing' is the time and effort you spend doing all that REWORK. Fixing stuff that should have been right the first time is expensive.
Not that the original 3.7 was in ANY way defective. Magnepan just found some cost effective improvements and made some 'on the fly' changes. But for purposes of 'upgrade' to 3.7i status? No difference.
Keep in mind, too, that nobody REALLY knows what the difference between 3.7 versions IS. If it is just some capacitors? Simple to change on the fly, but requires some disassembly to get at any internal caps and time / effort to modify the external crossover. IF it is just something as simple as crossover caps in the external box, that makes shipping a breeze and making the changes fairly simple….and cost effective. If it's just caps, you could even ship kits to 'authorized repair centers' for the install…..with Magnepan supplying the parts and arranging a labor buy-down for the shop doing the actual work.
As soon as you must ship the ENTIRE panel and crossover? You're in for it now! And must take steps to protect the ribbon. Not to mention the million and one STAPLES to remove the sock to get at any internal parts.
A change in tension of the main driver mylar? Now you're talking an expensive fix with all new parts. Something few 'original' 3.7 owners may want to pay for.
I'm standing by waiting for real news on what the change actually consists of.
Too much is never enough
Follow Ups:
In the first place, this upgrade is evidence which contradicts something for which some have criticized Magnepan. It makes it apparent that the company does, indeed, tinker with their 'completed' products. Many have clamored for the company to offer 'tweaks', and now they are offering one. That's the good news. I just find it bizarre that the 'mod' in question is shrouded in absolute secrecy - not one shred of information beyond, "It's an improvement!"
Were I to appeal to the members of this forum to send their speakers to me for an undisclosed improvement, how many takers do you think I'd find? Love him or hate him (I'm indifferent), PG not only spelled out his upgrade, but provided the details of the crossover design he used - including the specific parts. Which is the classier approach? Although I was critical of some of PG's behavior, I cannot compliment him adequately for his full disclosure. That, my friends, was generous in the extreme and it stands in diametric opposition to the topic of this discussion.
As I said elsewhere, I don't take issue with the cost. As you accurately described, performing such an upgrade is costly for a manufacturer. As this is the 3.7, there is no external crossover - it's all under the sock, which makes whatever they have to do more of a PITA. Perhaps, if it is 'nothing more' than a crossover modification, Magnepan feels that we will be critical of the $500 fee, and I don't doubt that some would be (there will always be those who complain, and I am aware that I am doing so in this thread).
You're also right that the 3.7 is not, in any way, defective . That doesn't mean that an improvement can't be found. Nothing is perfect - the 3.7i isn't perfect, though it might be better than the 3.7. What would be great is to know HOW . Is that so much to ask? If it's the bass that's been improved, as some have suggested, then the upgrade is irrelevant to me. Without a single scrap of information, how can I choose? I'd rather not depend on speculation. The manufacturer should answer this query.
They may not have an active Internet presence, but they do have computers and are aware of this forum. I hope they read this thread and rethink their furtive attitude regarding this upgrade. Please, Magnepan, choose to be open and forthright. Provide us with a little illumination. Otherwise, we are left with the unsettling realization that PG demonstrated more class about his modifications than you do.
I do find it interesting, waz, that Magnepan espouses zero Internet contact with their customers. The only other mfrs I have anything to do with, both sponsor their own Fora - Linn (TT) and AKSA (amps).
Linn have had their LP12 Forum for many years - most posts (on the LP12 Forum - they have others, for their other products) are by LP12 owners but Linn people do contribute - and answer questions. (Such as " what is the difference between this model and the last "!)
And AKSA is a direct-to-customer business model, so Hugh knows he has to have an Internet presence (although he spends less time than he should, IMO, keeping his product web-site up-to-date! :-)) ).
I suspect the Magnepan "attitude" is due to Wendell's age? He's more comfortable with old-style face-to-face contact?
Regards,
Andy
...that Wendell prefers face-to-face contact, or a real-time, telephone conversation (and talking with him is quite enjoyable), he has never failed to respond to any email (that invited a response) I've ever sent him. Access isn't really the issue; it's meaningful information. Many have inquired; none have learned a thing. Although some claim to know, I seriously doubt it. Besides, I've read conflicting 'insider' information from which I can only infer that they don't know what they think (or pretend) they know.
I've talked to Kevin and Brent at VAC, and I've communicated with them via email. They are only too happy to share deep details, and they always seem to relish the opportunity. In fact, Kevin will 'talk your ear off' ;-). An engineer whose name I can't recall at the former Mondial sent me schematics as well as some modification suggestions. I could keep going, but you get the picture.
As I'm sure you remember, Wendell did pop his head up on this forum a while back, but his reception was less than welcoming - no need to dredge that stuff back up, eh? Of course, there are other possibilities, but I suspect you are absolutely right about why they have no 'presence' anywhere. Then again, the reigns are now in the hands of the next generation.
I think I'm a reasonable individual. I endeavor to understand situations like this from their prospective, as well as my own. I don't understand this one at all. The response evidenced by this thread seems rather predictable - to include a few harshly embittered comments. In my book, animus of the customer base is not desirable. In today's tenuous climate, I don't think it's particularly wise to be so disobliging.
"I can't hear any difference!" What the hell did I just pay you guys 500 clams to do (or not do)?!"
My guess at that cost point it's along the lines of 'Razoring' but then again; who knows?.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
Most individuals who spend hundreds of dollars for an improvement will experience one. Toss in the weeks without one's 3.7s and the table is set for a perceived improvement, even if absolutely nothing were done to them.
I'm afraid that's all one big guess. The secrecy behind the change is incomprehensible and unacceptable. It's given birth to all types of rumors, wild guesses and assumptions. Why? What possible purpose does it serve?
I'd never spend > $900 (round trip) to ship both panels and XO for a $500 upgrade. Can you imagine if the panels were damaged on the way back?!So they're going to remove the rails, unstaple a gazillion staples on both panels, do what they have to do inside, possibly tinker with the XO, re-staple, re-attach the rails, test the panels, rebox em', all for $500?
Time to play armchair quarterback: From a company's standpoint, consider: -the cost of labor involved for two men to handle these huge panels -getting the job done in an hour (maybe 90 min; I'm guessing...hell for their sake I hope it's the former),
-the cost for parts (x2, if both panels) which is most likely a cheap, cheap capacitor.So if the normal labor cost is $150 per hour (as quoted by Michelle a while back) they're looking at a $300 or $400 minimum it's costing the company to perform this $500 task. Then you have to ask yourself does this project hinder the 3 series team in building pending orders? Hell it's a great way to pull OT if you're the builder no doubt. But that of course cuts into company profits.
If it's upper management performing this upgrade ie Wendell et al, then the cost is nil, chalk it up as the cost of doing good business, comes with the territory, and believing in what you do in support of a quality product.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
Edits: 03/29/14 03/29/14
Green Lantern wrote:
"So if the normal labor cost is $150 per hour...."
Sheila told me they charge $49.00 and hour.
Spoke with Sheila and she states $49 an hour.
My note taking is usually meticulous; perhaps it was a miss-quote back then.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
The $49 an hour is for dismantling, testing etc. Seems to be flat rates for new Mylar and wiring. Tympanis are $250 for each driver, $300 for new ribbons etc.
Can you smell the desperation for information???
thanks
Mark
GL, you are a class act...
She said she didn't know and I would have to speak to a 'tech' (most likely Mark or Wendell no doubt) but I left it at that.
Despite the shroud of secrecy and smoke and mirrors; you gotta love those folks at White Bear lake lol...
Just keep crankin' em out!
may the bridges I burn light the way-
That is exactly what I would have guessed she was going to say...under direct orders not say anything but what she did....
Meeting her a few times...if it was up to her...she would tell you everything and most likely a little more on top of that...
She has a very fun loving personality, enjoys her work, tremendous pride in the product and her coworkers....
They are a very lean machine in middle management...they all wear multiple hats...lots of gray hair 55+...this "internet thing" sure is a pain in the A$$, "takes allot of our time away from us getting everything we need to get done, ya-no?...." in the Minnesooooooota dialect/grammar...
So, no rock throwing at them...two sets of doors and couple of sound rooms in-between...well...we are frustrated...
Thanks
Mark
GL...I would have bet the farm, that you would have asked "something" about their first FACTORY upgrade ever offered...thanks man...
She's always been helpful whenever I had to phone them over the years. Never left any stone unturned, always made sure I was satisfied with the information I got.
Ditto for Margaret her predecessor, who I believed retired around the same time Jim did.
The reason I didn't dig into the 3.7i upgrade was because I didn't want to pull Wendel or Mark away about a product I don't even own. Not my style.
Besides I already knew what their answer would be. I'm sure when they're ready to reveal it they'll announce it in one form or another.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
I'm pretty sure she quoted me $150 and that's per panel since I wrote $300 in my notes. This is for MG20s.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
That is what I remember when I had the 1.6's completely refurbish...
If the two ladies that do ALL the repairs, are doing the upgrades...they have always been, first come first serve basis....which means weeks to months...potentially...
If you have to wait for the production run of 3.7i's, who knows how long...the production jigs change over in all the different departments depending on which model they are producing...they run basically one model at a time...
I believe except MMG's....
They were running, 3.7's when I got my tour last August...the QR jigs are very cool...
If there is any re-tensioning; the socks are coming 100% off, typically if that is case, they put on new socks...if it is just crossover parts being swapped out, they will not take the socks 100% off, they loosen and peel them up....
For refurbishing the first place they stop is sock removal...then get put on the wall by the refurbishing ladies with an RA number taped to it with the corresponding paperwork...
After repairs are done, they go into a sound room for testing prior to putting the socks back on; once they pass that test, socks are put back on and they are re-tested in the sound room, prior to getting boxed up in shipping...
At $50 per hour, my 1.6 refurbish was $450, after 12 years of use, I had major wire delamination; that included new socks....I was quoted $300-$600...anything over that, they would call me....I was comfortable with that...
So the $500 cost...is 10 hrs of labor, duh....put the of cost crossover parts swapped out, if any???? (which I do not believe would be a huge cost for them), and do you get new socks??? Which is $100+/-....
IMHO, they are doing it close to cost...I do believe they are making something $$$ on it, but I do not believe it is much...
This is all voodoo conjuncture on my part...
I will do what I can to find out as much as possible...
I will check to see if they are willing to handle door to door shipping...
thanks
Mark
The 'fee' for the upgrade is probably a flatrate.
Just like when you take your car in for a given repair. They'll check the 'book' and charge you book time….regardless of how long it really takes. A good mechanic makes lots of money by being paid basically piecework per repair and BEATING book time. A friend of mine, MANY years ago started as a car mechanic. His first task was installing Air Conditioners in Subaru. The 'book' time, IIRC was something like 5 hours. Even as a novice (albeit Talented) he could do one in 3 1/2 hours. The pro guys? About 45 minutes quicker which meant they could do 3 in an 8 hour day. I don't know if my buddy EVER figured out how he was 'wasting' 45 minutes!
I suspect Magnepan is simply charging some kind of flat rate for the upgrade and not actual hours or whatever.
And until there is Greater Disclosure, that's all 'ya got to go on.
10 hours? that's 5 hours per panel or ONE complete 'person-day'. Imagine how much a trained person with ALL the right stuff and perfect working conditions could get done in that amount of time. I know working in sub-optimal conditions, it takes me about 2x the amount of time anyone else would take to do the same task with proper tools and setup. or even 3x! OUCH.
Too much is never enough
Yes, I do agree about the "flat rate"...
I have estimated large scale precast concrete projects my whole life...from production to installation...so I have always looked productivity per man hour...now add that to an entire crew of people...
then add a 100 ton crane...we are operating at about $2200 per hour...if we set more than 3 panels an hour, we are in the black, if we set one, we are not...
My point on the hourly rate and man hours, if it involves different stations, it does not take much, to get to 10 hours of labor with multiple people working on them....they are not paying their employees $50 per hour, but as a "shop rate", it is not out of line at all IMHO...
The two ladies in refurbishing, that is 16 hours per day of highly skilled workers, as you stated; with the right tools and ideal working environment...they can really crank things out...
But since we do not know $hit, of what actually is being "upgraded" and what it involves, it is all conjecture as I also stated...someone did look at the internal cost of doing this upgrade....said we won't lose money doing it $500...it will cover our costs and "should" please our customers that we can improve a current model without them having to buy new speakers....well there is a slippery slope...as this post has proven...
People for years have complained about how Magnepan does NOT do any upgrades...instead, they let the models run for years, until they feel it is a significant enough change/design to warrant a new model...
When I bought my 3.7's, I felt very confident that I would not have to wonder or worry about a 3.8 for years and years...historically speaking, why wouldn't I think that...so yes, like the majority of 3.7 owners I was pissed...who wouldn't be...
The biggest rub of this whole thing....!@#$%* shipping, what do are overseas friends do???? My friend Hasse in Sweden...3.7 owner...
Is this something that a qualified dealer could do??? Because of the Maggie Code of Silence, beyond ridiculous IMHO...With JA ASKING Wendell to review a pair...then getting told no, because of the testing and not wanting their dispersion characteristic published??!!?? Really???
Not looking at what a rave review would do for sales. I am guessing the people at KEF with their LS50 are getting maximum mileage out their review and product of the year...what did that do for their bottom line???
DIY tweekers, were pissed with the series x-over in the .7 models because...no bi-amping, no bi-wiring, not as tweeker friendly as previous models...as of yet...
I personally would have thought by now, that someone here would have ripped open a pair to take a look and possibly do some upgrades on their own...swapping out x-over parts...
Quick upgrade story...I had a CJ 17LS, as soon as I got it, they came out with 17LS II, similar to Waz's story...I called CJ and just happened to get Lew Johnson on the phone, (MN boy), so I started shooting the breeze with him...by the time I was done talking, he agreed to take my old preamp in on a trade and sell me a knew one for minimal $$$...no local dealers anywhere in the Midwest at that time...so he was ok selling it to me direct....which he did not like, but said he would make an exception with me...its a MN thing...
thanks
Mark
If the mod has multiple tasks which can be done in-parallel, than put several people on it and proceed. If it can only be done 'in series'…..one person probably will prevail.
With a pair of panels? You can have 2 people doing 1 panel each…and do 2 pair per day if the specualtion on labor rates and such are correct.
As long as the speaker has those friction slip on tabs, crossover mods are as simple as disconnecting the crossover and doing as you will….even to the extent of retrofitting a x-over from the 3.6 and will be limited only by the modder's imagination and initiative.
Too much is never enough
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: