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Does anyone know what the difference is between the 3.7 and 3.7i's ?
There was a thread a while back about some upgrade, but no specifics were revealed.
Follow Ups:
I think this speculation and complaints about the lack of information about the "i" upgrade is pointless. Magnepan has obviously chosen to keep the specifics of the changes secret because their competitors can use this to their advantage too. So far all that leaked out is that the change required significant effort to develop and has measurable results. So don't expect any further info to come out until there is either a patent issued or someone else comes out with a similarly altered planar speaker and uses the new "technology" to make claims about performance.
The review that we have so far is indicating an unsubtle improvement in the 3.7i performance over its predecessor. That is what should concern us as users. I don't know that we could expect to be able to apply this modification ourselves on a DIY basis. Particularly since it is going to stay a proprietary secret for the foreseeable future.
I think that somewhat misses the point, and there is much speculation in your post. Ironic since your first sentence regards speculation as pointless. :)
A patentable technology improvement that needs to remain secret so competitors can't take advantage? Where are you coming up with that?
Why is it outlandish for owners of 3.7's to ask for some (just a little) information about what might happen to their speakers if they send them back to WBL?
Technology improvements from Magnepan (historically) have been touted immediately. That's why I suspect this is not one.
Cheers,
Dave.
I don't know that they are actually seeking a patent. But there is no more speculation than that.
I just respect their choice to keep mum in order to keep their advantage. It is definitely something they do routinely, or do you forget their refusal to let Stereophile review their speakers so that they don't reveal their tricks?
Magnepan has had speakers reviewed by Stereophile on numerous occasions. Anyways, a review wouldn't necessarily reveal any "tricks."
You're still implying there's some sort of technical upgrade here that needs to be kept secret from competitors. I don't know where you're getting that. :)
My belief is this whole affair is a (veiled) product recall of some sort and the ignition switch needs to be replaced. Prove me wrong. :)
Dave.
Well, the word from Wendell is "Some of it is trade secrets." He added this morning that eventually, some but not all of the tweaks will be discovered. (So it seems there's more than one -- who will be the first to open one up and find out?)Otherwise, neither I nor Steve have been able to chip away at their commitment to secrecy, and we must have driven Wendell crazy by now with our nagging. I continue to think that they're taking this too far -- I mean, I can understand withholding proprietary information that could be of use to a competitor, and I understand and appreciate the integrity that makes Wendell dislike hype and selling on the basis of tech lust rather than sonics. but what could it hurt to give people an overall view of what their $500 will buy them? I don't think anybody is asking for the nitty gritty, just a general idea.
I find it hard to believe that this is worth the bad publicity and the ire on the part of some of their most loyal customers, though Wendell says that the 3.7 customers he's spoken to have been happy with the arrangement, and thinks the sonic improvements will speak for themselves. I certainly don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, though if people believe that in the absence of solid information from the company, they (the company) have only themselves to blame.
Edits: 04/04/14
If there are indeed trade secrets involved, which might be useful to competitors, it sort of implies that whatever they are might be could usefully employed in other model Maggies. If that be true, then Mr. Diller ows to all their 'faithful' to be better informed about it.
IMO with all the secrecy on the part of Magnepan, it it would only be befitting if we gave it some code name, (as was done for the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos). Should Comrade Putin know if it was being discussed at the G7?
Interesting to speculate about, no? Will there be a 20.7i? Did some of the new technology already make its way into the improved MMG? I'll have to ask my contacts at the NSA . . .
We have been told that there will not be a 20.7i. This "i" thing is already there. If we can trust such a statement?
Knowing Magnepan, I imagine we can. So does this give us license to speculate? What's unique about the 20.7 that we know of? A lower mass midrange comes to mind. So -- a lower mass diaphragm in the 3.7i? That would be a major mod indeed.
Great to see you posting again.
I was thinking that the issue of the "i" upgrade would be unique to the 3.7 as the diaphragm's division into mid and bass does not give you much in the way of room to adjust treble vs midrange speed. Which you would be able to do with the MMG or 1.7 where the particulars of the mid and treble traces can be adjusted to provide transient speed where it is most significant.
In the 3.7 the shared membrane has to retain its strength for bass excursions so can't be made thinner as it was in the 20.7. Therefore transient speed - which is still far less than in the ribbon - and thus a significant concern for the design, would be the target of whatever new tricks Mark and co. came up with. The MMG and 1.7 would not gain much since the tweeter section already has lower mass due to the thinner foil on it.
The review indicates that was where things have improved; more articulation, less upper mid brightness (which would happen with either a lighter, or less stiff diaphragm, or better damping, and any combo thereof).
Thanks, Satie. Wish I could hang around but I'm traveling this weekend and then still have a bit of a slog ahead of me -- screwed up my back a month ago so wasn't able to get much accomplished.
Are you sure the 20.7 have a lower mass midrange? For sure the midrange of the Tympani IVa are low mass with its 6 µm Mylar, AWG 32 wiring and dividing strips. I think the mass of the glue could be higher. In order to lower the mass of the midrange in the 3.7, you need to use thinner Mylar even for the bass. If you decrease the wire gauge you loose effiency. Calls for stronger magnets, a costly route.
Yes, the lower mass midrange was mentioned in one of the reviews. (Of course, reviews are sometimes wrong.) Agree that they probably wouldn't reduce the foil thickness, what with the cost of neodynium magnets.
Josh wrote:
” Yes, the lower mass midrange was mentioned in one of the reviews. (Of course, reviews are sometimes wrong.)”Reviewers are often told facts that they never check. If we believe the reviews written over the years, Magneplanar drivers would have no moving mass at all. Truth is that it is still the same Mylar and wiring in most cases. Round wires or flat wires does not change the mass. I do not know why people believe the mass is less while going from round to rectangular wires. For exemple, the wiring of the 3.6 mids are about 2 gram, Mylar also 2 gram (but it is a part of the bass section...) and then some glue. Compared to an electrostatic this is a lot of moving mass.
For comparsion, the largest section of the Tympani IVa mids, the wiring is 0.5 gram and the Mylar 0.3 gram.
Here a picture of the T-IVa mids: http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/IMG_0353.JPG
Edits: 04/05/14
I am still dreaming of a graphene conductor on a thin kaladex in a neodymium powered push pull driver that would be able to be as fast as an electrostat without its output limitations and arcing.
Unfortunately, the commercial graphene is still too high in resistivity to compete with Aluminum conductors since the lower density of the graphene does not compensate for the much higher resistance, so the practical driver would still end up with a higher mass with graphene. Even if you make the whole diaphragm from graphene it would still be heavier to conduct the same current as Al.
Perhaps interesting, headphones using graphene driver:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.2391
That is very cool
I have no way of knowing whether the reviewer was correct. They certainly aren't always. But I think Satie did a good job of describing the trades here. Assuming you want to maintain the Bl product, the wiring can't play a role unless you can find more powerful magnets that fit the budget. But of course there are other ways of reducing the mass. It's pure speculation until you look!
Interesting figures, BTW.
Outside of the glue wires and mylar there is the damping layer. You can use a lighter gauge membrane if you go for a stronger polyamide rather than a regular polyester. More expensive, but that is what BG did. The damping material would be something to look at. Maybe something that dries less stiff would make for lower final tension or for less mass if you can spray less of it and still get enough damping.
I tried pricing Neo magnets for the ribbon tweeters thinking that I could improve their efficiency but it was absurdly expensive. I think it was $300 just for the magnets. Then I had to have someone weld on stiffening strips on the tweeter frame so it won't buckle with the extra magnetic force. It all got very expensive very quickly.
Yeah, neo magnets are crazy, aren't they.
I recall reading a BG white paper in which they said they used Kapton on their smaller drivers because their small surface area required superior heat resistance.
Pic is of Kapton repeating unitKapton is a polyimide, BG used kaladex a cousin of PET, PEN Poly ethelene naphthalate (instead of terephthalate) good for high temp (180C continuous) film with 2.5X tensile strength of PET (of cola bottles fame) and great flex recovery. Makes for excellent capacitor film too. Also used for flexible printed circuit boards.
Edits: 04/04/14 04/04/14
None of the x.7 series nor the mini made it to Stereophile.
I do think they are being a little paranoid about these things since some of the folks here figured some of these out anyway and no one stepped in to use them commercially.
"My belief is this whole affair is a (veiled) product recall..."
Well, you are making me feel less dumb, thanks. That was a thought I did not feel like mentioning but one possibility is such. The reason I thought of it is that the 3.7s never showed me something that I would have expected from them after hearing it from a pair of lesser Maggies.
Satie
Hope all is well in your world....
I just got my RA number from Shelia, dropping them off Tuesday morning, could be ready Wednesday or Thursday....
She checked with Sue, (one of the repair, ladies), so they are doing the upgrade...Sue remembered me...told Shelia she wanted "whine and cheese instead of bagels this time"....I did spell whine right...
I did not ask Shelia any questions about the upgrade, did not want to put her on the spot, knowing we were not going get anything out of her...
OFF TOPIC...from about mid January to a week ago...I have been doing the Maggie Placement Dance...I won't go into great detail other than, they are now within 1" of our original placement, with 1.25" of toe-in, (which they never had before), the tweeter intersection is aprox 10'-12' behind my listening position, verses 14'-16'....all is well in the western world...
Thanks
take care
Mark
When you have the time tell us how the upgrade sounds to you. Once its done etc. of course.
Re placement, we did good then. I am still doing a tour of the room with the speakers on the short wall, as opposed to the previous decade working placements on the long wall.
Big difference now is that I change the XO and relative positions of the panels to get time coherence.
This HiFi+ first listen may be of interest (link below).
FIRST LISTEN HAS JUST WRITTEN OBSCURE NONSENSE.....Nor does this 'review -IMPRESSION' serve the interest of MAGNEPAN All should be ashamed. They told us nothing.
Sorry, I see this review has already been given a thread of it's own which I didn't notice before I posted. The concluding paragraph compares the 3.7 & the 3.7i - though the author seems to find it difficult to pinpioint the actual sonic differences ...
This 3.7 to 3.7i "upgrade" is the weirdest anecdote I've seen from Magnepan in their history. :)
I'm glad I don't own 3.7's or I'd be pissed.
Dave.
I do not own 3.7s so I have no direct stake in this discussion, however, I find Magnepan's cloaking their update in secrecy intriguing. People who are secretive in general usually have something they wish to hide which may or may not be benign. Some manufacturers cover up electronic component part numbers so competitors cannot easily copy their designs. Other manufacturers may do so to cover up use of cheap component parts in an overpriced product. I suspect Magnepan may have released the 3.7 with a crossover part in error - either in design or procurement. The sound of the speaker may still be great but not up to snuff. If they admit their error they would ethically be on the hook to repair all speakers for free (a high expense for a small company unlike the auto industry that could more readily afford rework). By couching the change as an undisclosed "upgrade" they can foist the cost of repair on to the consumer. This is only conjecture on my part and the proof would be evidenced when someone examines the change.
If they never came out with this "I" factory upgrade, I would not have the impression that there is something lacking in my 3.7's...(Waz, also stated this)..
This is what is driving me nuts...for those of you who have not heard these speakers...they are special, being fed with quality frontend and good amp...they exhibit very few weaknesses, IMHO...(the top to bottom coherence, really does sound like a single full range driver)
Have I heard better?...absolutely...
Is any speaker perfect?...hell no...
Do they play way over their price point...(set-up properly)...hell yes...
Will I keep them for years...yes...1.6's lasted 12+ years...
As this is an Asylum, (and it is IMHO), we are inmates of this Asylum who are passionate about our hobby, (some more than others), but commonality, willing to share experiences and some inmates here have exceptional expertise, whether from a professional careers or just shear years of experience in this hobby...it has been a wealth of knowledge for me personally...
My speaker placement was a total team effort from members on this board...they took me directions, I personally would have NEVER even considered...which elevated the performance much more than I would have imagined...
This particular thread, really makes me smile, IMHO it shows gambit of our demographic.....passionate, inquisitive, fair minded, willing to theorize, guess subjectively, show their frustrations with one of the more polarizing speaker manufacturers and their business practices...
The speakers transparency, one of its strengths, does NOT apply to the speakers manufacturer...that would be irony....
Thanks
Mark
Well you might have a stake in this discussion *if* you should ever contemplate buying a pair of Maggies in the future. If you disapprove of the manner in which they handled this affair, you may not ever want to buy from them in the future and IMO, that might be their biggest mistake.
Since the 3.7s have received such rave reviews, Mr. Diller should never have said anything.
That's the ugly truth of Magnepan's silence: people will naturally conjure up all kinds of scenarios, most of them with Magnepan as a villain of sorts...Their fault.
try it! you know you want to!
We are Magnepan...when have we ever steered you wrong as customers...
Why do you have to KNOW what is being upgraded, TRUST US....better is better...
Be thankful we are offering an UPGRADE, this is a first for us....your welcome...
********************************************************************
IMHO
thanks
Mark
There are all sorts of possible areas in which a speaker might be improved. At the very least, it would be helpful to know which one this improvement addresses. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, if the improvement is related to bass performance, it's likely a non-issue for me. On the other hand, the improvement could be something in which I am interested. With no information beyond 'it's an improvement', the possibility exists that it would be a complete waste of money for me - not to mention the time without my 3.7s. That makes this something of an ethical issue, doesn't it?
I need to know so that I can make an informed decision. As the manufacturer is not forthcoming with such information, I feel alienated, irritated and downright frustrated - with a waning feeling of loyalty.
Waz,
You do touch all the bases...
"I feel alienated, irritated and downright frustrated - with a waning feeling of loyalty."
The waning feeling of loyalty, are consequences they may have never considered...I do feel we are being condescended too as loyal customers...it is like being padded on the head...oh silly boy...we know what's best for you...
thanks
Mark
Re: "I feel alienated, irritated and downright frustrated - with a waning feeling of loyalty."
Yeah, baby! Make them suffer for the undue secrecy. This ought to make someone at Magnepan understand. We don't necessarily need the details of "how they did it". (we can figure this out by ourselve later, LOL)
However, we can use the detail of what IT did. What is it that currrent 3.7 users will likely notice as a change.
JBen...
I did not see your post, before I responded to Waz...so we are on the same page...
this is known as crapping in your playhouse...ripple/domino effect of this upgrade opportunity, might make Magnepan NEVER offer such a thing again...
If this was offered on smaller model that can go standard ground, verses via freight, (where the shipping has potential to be more than the upgrade), I do not think it would be quite as big of a deal...
This does not change my mind on the silly code of silence they are exhibiting on this upgrade...but here again, it really brings into question...did they even think of the cost to the customer for shipping two ways???? It is not $500 upgrade...it is $1000+ upgrade with shipping...
I am going to do an in-house frequency response before and after the I have the upgrade done...I will post it here...then try to describe with my limited Audiophile vernacular as best I can, what the differences are.
My shipping costs, are getting my brother in-laws pick-up and $10 worth of gas...so it is done deal for me...
thanks
Mark
So, if this is a crossover mod, it's a painful one. Many of us are quite capable of doing the work ourselves (again, if it's the XO). Heck, I think it would be fun. Okay, I'm sinking into anger now. Magnepan can ignore our pleas. They can be as obstinate as they please, but can they prevent us from discovering the truth? Are they making you sign a non-disclosure agreement in order to receive the upgrade? If not, somebody is going to spill the beans.
You know; I feel like a less than appreciated customer - terribly unfortunate and completely unnecessary, IMO.
Great, MM! The frequency sweeps could help much. There's another very helpful resource, if you have the time. Before taking them over, spend serious quality time listening to a few SHORT music segments such that you grow uncommonly familiar with them.
Memory can be very efficient when the music segments are short, <2 minutes or shorter. Listen to instrumental & voice textures, solidity in their 3D space and localization on soundstage depth & width (these are easiest to remember). Other SQ parameters will also be better retained when short segments are used.
Also -- to feed a healthy spirit of "sneakiness" -- take good pictures before & after, just in case these catch hints of the variance. : - ))
This post will self-destruct in 10 seconds...
JBen, thank you for the listening tips...great points...
I have been recruiting ears, to do the before and after....yes..yes...yes...they are no where near as familiar as I am...but the two people that have listened so far...I trust their ears...
I had another guy who was coming over to listen, had it lined up...never heard from again...oh well...3.6/Pass/vinyl guy...
My friend Bill, who I have known for 20 years now; I have a burned disc of his references and he has mine...which ultimately has become our references...each track bringing multiple elements into the equation...yet individual sonic cues are apparent...
But we have always just listened to 1.5-2.5 minutes of each track...the last time we got together we laughed how fast we went from track to track...the familiarity of the tracks makes it easy to know what you are listening for....then go yep...
I have an ongoing word document, with notes on different tracks, changes made to the rig...then more notes, not looking back to what I previous wrote, until my evaluation is done...my evaluations are typically 2-6 weeks depending on changes made...then I will go back to before I made the change and listen again...
My frequency sweeps, will be the Rat Shack sound meter and the Rives weighted test tones for the Rat Shack meter...so extremely low tech...but at least it is something...
As I have said, my goal is to work out a 24-48 hr turn around...when I call to have it done, pay for it, get an RA number...then sweet talk Shelia to give me a call when my RA number is coming up, so they stay with me until the appointment....that's the plan anyway...
thanks
Mark
"did they even think of the cost to the customer for shipping two ways???? It is not $500 upgrade...it is $1000+ upgrade with shipping..."
No, it is $3600+ upgrade with shipping and insurance......if you like me are living in Sweden :(
Now, that's what I call painful! It's unconscionable.
Here's the stickiest part of this issue. If they aren't profiting from the enterprise, why should it be such a closely guarded secret? The information could only serve owners of the 3.7s. Magnepan would stand to lose not a single penny. Magnepan would demonstrate good will. Who loses in that scenario? I just don't get it.
yea...that is why I asked Hasse the question about getting it done at his dealer....which leads to MORE conjecture...maybe it is not "just" a x-over upgrade if the overseas guys can't have it done at the dealer...
Would the overseas users, be bettered served selling or trading in their 3.7's for a NEW pair of "i's"??? Would North American owners be better served??? $$$
Oh..wait...we don't know what the sonic improvements are suppose to be...
Never mind....
thanks
Mark
Hasse...
I was thinking of you when I posted some of my replies...I mentioned you by name...
Have you talked to your local dealer about it at all???
My question being...Do they HAVE to go back to Magnepan for the upgrade???
or as I asked earlier in the post, is this something a qualified dealer could do??
Hope all is well in your world...great to hear from you....
thanks
Mark
Hi Mark, yes I have talked to Audionord (the scandinavian importer) and yes, they have to go back to Magnepan.
I am looking forward to hear your thoughts on how the "i"-model compares to the original 3.7. Take care :)
Later
thanks
Mark
That is safe and wise....Shipping is dangerous shit.....UPS can ruin your musical life.....Your way is the only way to handle it....I am sure the $500 will be worth it...Good luck....
As I have stated, I am going to have the "I" upgrade done...BECAUSE I do not have to ship.....
If I had to ship them...I would not have it done, unless I KNEW what the improvements are exactly both sonically and what they are going do to MY speakers....
So, I get everyone's frustration with the Maggie Code of Silence...it really seems silly...Remember this is the company that said NO to Stereophile!!??!! Whose marketing is word of mouth and the occasional magazine add...
My leap of faith, and it is a leap of faith....
1. Is the history of longevity of model runs...
2. This is the first upgrade to a current model that Magnepan has ever offered....WHY??? Curiosity has the best of me here...
3. NO shipping....
As far as shipping goes, (search my previous posts), about using Old Dominion and GETTING the Magnepan rate; that went from $496 to $226 that was from KY to MN one way...So assuming that it will be $500-$600 +/- round trip...(contact me or look at my posts for direct local line to OD); you have to ask for the Magnepan rate...I was floored when them gave to me, being a private individual...also I picked them up at their hub...which is in-between my Condo and Magnepan Factory....one more thing, you really should use a 6' pallet when shipping....
I will keep everyone up to speed as I go through the process...relay as much info as I can....I am still going to try making the appointment for a 24-48 hour turn around and the weather is finally starting to warm up...so my goal is to have it done in April....
Next question....have any of the 3.7i's showed up at a dealers yet???
thanks
Mark
How many 3.7 pairs are in peoples homes?
Of those, how many would want the .7i upgrade?
The upgrade should be performed at or near cost. I can't imagine a HUGE inrush of demand to get it done. Though Magnepan should 'schedule' speaker arrivals so they don't have a huge pile of 'em needing the additional work.
If you look at this from the aspect of the new sub-model being a 'rework' of previously completed production, at least as far as those already sold and in peoples LRs, than the expense layoff makes more sense.
Too much is never enough
At some point after the 3.7i enters their 'assembly line', replacing manufacture of 3.7s, it might cost them next to bupkes to insert a bunch 3.7s into their queue and upgrade them all at one fell swoop.
Supposedly this already happened. All new 3.7s after a certain date were I models. I read somewhere else that the change was bass panel tensioning. As an upgrade mod this would probably require a new bass driver, not a simple xo change. At best, removing the bass panel assembly and taking it apart further, and reassembling in the production jig. Note that the tensioning has always been an important Magnepan trade secret. It is not uniform across the height. Apogees were trapezoidal. Maggie's aren't, but they behave as if they were a bit, and for the same reason, smooth resonance modes.
I don't understand why everybody is bitching. They made a modest production improvement and run their business as they always have.
DrChaos.
Have You ever replaced a membrane before on a Magnepan model to gain this information on differential vertical tension?
I have changed a few and have yet to stumble upon that.
Everyone I have repaired have had equal tension across the length.
Cheers!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
There are some bass drivers that have differential tension, the lowest tuned bass drivers of some Tympanis. These are without tuning buttons and the tuning is different from top to bottom.
Thank You Roger!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
You read somewhere... I've read all sorts of things. The fact of the matter is that nobody outside of Magnepan knows what is changed, or even how it 'improves' the 3.7. Magnepan is keeping it a closely guarded secret. Anything written anywhere is conjecture. That's why we are bitching.Everybody knows the tensioning of the driver is critical. What possible motivation could exist to keep a tight lip about modifying that? How on earth does a general statement along those lines give away anything which qualifies as a trade secret? Nobody is demanding the specifics of how the tensioning was changed, if that's what was done. Until Magnepan states that's what the mod is, I don't believe it.
We, the customers who purchased 3.7s not too long ago, would like to know something about the modification in order to figure out whether or not it's worth the price of admission. We know absolutely nothing beyond, "Our listening panel liked the improved model better." The silence makes no sense and nothing you said makes it any more sensible or excusable.
Maybe, you don't understand why everyone is bitching because this situation really doesn't impact you. Walk a mile in our shoes and you just might understand.
Edits: 03/31/14 04/01/14
The fact that they choose to be silent causes their customers to come to the worst possible conclusions. Although hardly life threatening as in the case of the big auto sellers, it appears as if being a sin of omission.
Yeah, I could agree more. In the absence of information, rumors sprout, and some of them are pretty unflattering to Magnepan. Wendell did tell Steve and me today that there were trade secrets involved. I suggested that they didn't have to give out details, just a general idea that would satisfy people who are wondering what their $500 is buying but wouldn't be of use to a competitor. But without knowing what those trade secrets are, I have no idea whether that would in fact be possible.PS -- I think that if it had been something as simple as a crossover mod, there would have been a kit. This after all is the company that lets you replace your own ribbons and sells you wire and adhesive if you want to redo the diaphragms.
Edits: 04/03/14
They do have some competition in Europe from Analysis and here from Gilmore, though their ribbon is not stretched membrane like ET BG & Maggies and their bass are dipole cones.
Spouse Approval Factor...(The politically correct version of WAF...)
The SAF for 1.7 - 20.7 may have the most influence on sales then any competition....My lovely pair came from gentleman in KY/worked in WV, where they shipped from, whose wife and daughter said they are too big, too ugly and blocked the screen from the side...the only reason he was selling them...bummer for him...
Dynaudio C2's were the 3.7 replacements...nice, but also quite a bit more money...
So, riddle me this...what would a Stereophile set of tests tell the world about the Magnepan design in the .7 era??? From what I can remember, I thought it had to do with their dispersion characteristics??? But really not sure...
thanks
Mark
They would do the standard FR at a couple of distances and for each driver, dispersion plot, and waterfall plot and impulse response.
They would show the resonance tuning freq. what changed with the waterfall plot, which might clue someone as to what kind of improvement was made in the transition from one model to the next.
Their new XO might have a twist to it that we aren't aware of.
Josh...
"I suggested that they didn't have to give out details, just a general idea that would satisfy people who are wondering what their $500 is buying but wouldn't be of use to a competitor"
IMHO...more than a reasonable request...
As the $500 upgraded came out in January sometime, I was going to have it done no matter what, due to the fact shipping was not in the equation for me...the $500 upgrade, reflects aprox 8% of the MSRP...not outrageous IMHO...
For the majority of 3.7 owners have to SHIP their speakers back to MN...this added cost will be more than the upgrade itself...
To make this easy, let's say we are looking a $600 round trip...add this to the cost of the upgrade; it becomes aprox. 20% of the MSRP...IMHO that is a much more significant cost...
I have been contacted offline by two 3.7 owners that were looking for the contact information of Old Dominion and how I got the Magnepan shipping rate....(which I have previously posted...I just ASKED for it and they gave it too me)...see attached...
They quoted me, $271 one way from WV to MN; my actual cost was $226, that included $6000 worth of insurance...the NON-Magnepan rate was $496...one-way...(fyi..the shipping class is 100, when asking for the Magnepan rate)...
As our hobby is full subjectivity, we all understand that no matter what, you will NOT be able to please everyone...I completely disagree with the personal attacks and bashing for the sake of bashing...just not in my nature...and understand WHY many manufactures' choose not to participate on these type of boards...(just wander over to Critics Corner and read what JA puts up with)...the dude takes the high road, when I would have trouble at times doing...anonymity of the internet gives people the opportunity to behave, "as they see fit", good, bad or indifferent...
After getting my RA number yesterday...Shelia checked with Sue in refurbishing/repair on when they would have time to do this...I was told drop them off Tuesday morning and I should have them back by Wednesday or Thursday and would be Friday at the latest...so 24-72 hour turn around...not bad...
I gave Shelia my serial number and she asked me twice to confirm my trim and fabric color, (AL trim, silver...fabric dark gray), this tells me the socks are coming off...most likely being replaced with new fabric as part of the upgrade cost...
As you have been to Magnepan and know that in the repair area, they are capable of just about any of the steps in the manufacturing process...so this is not being upgraded in main production process...which was a fear of mine, since they typically run one model at a time through production...would I have to wait until they are running 3.7's???
That answer is no... which is good news for all 3.7 owners to lesson down time...
The HIFI+ first look was helpful...when some of the dealers thought the improvements were significant enough to warrant a 3.8 designation...I can only guess what kind of frenzy we would have seen on this board...with the history of longevity of model runs...we 3.7 owners bought them thinking we are good for the next 5-10 years...at least I was...
Because this is a first for Magnepan OFFERING an upgrade to a current model...all new 3.7's will have the "I" designation, but yet giving current owners the opportunity to have the latest and greatest...win-win...well as this post has shown, not everyone feels that way...
I do stand behind what I have personally posted on this subject...feel I have been fair minded...stated that I am NOT going to pursue trying get information from any of the production people...not fair to them...
So the real question is....Is this upgrade worth $1200-$2000 shipping included??? For the NON-North American residences...this is a much bigger number.... Would you be money ahead selling your current 3.7's and buying new 3.7i's??? I do not know what the MSRP for the 3.7i's is...
Well, by next weekend I should be able to give my personal take on the upgrade...I am actually starting to get a little excited about the whole thing....
Once again, thank you for your time and consideration on this subject...it does not go unappreciated by this inmate...
thanks
Mark
Greenie----
IT was $1900 SPEAKER. You will not find any 'asylum seeker' who had it. And it was not so much the shipping cost as the shipping danger It was the 3.7 where the change was really necessary, because they were very bright-and without the chance of bi-amping -it was like being caught in the sun without sun screen.
Mark,I think you're right -- the upgrade itself is a good thing and whether people find it worthwhile or not is going to depend on the sonics, and that means your opinion and that of other early adopters will be important.
I still believe that Magnepan has created trouble for themselves unnecessarily. I think many of us who have had dealings with the company over the years know that they're decent folk who have an old-fashioned sense of business ethics. But that's just my personal impression and obviously it carries no weight, as real information about the upgrade would.
I'm sure that Wendell is right when he says that this will blow over as people read reviews like Chris Martens's and get to hear from fellow customers like you, and Wendell just wrote to describe some of the practical problems they have when they release technical information -- the kind of problem that we who aren't in the business would never think of. So they have some real concerns. But still, I think some basic information of the kind most audio manufacturers have traditionally supplied (including Magnepan) would avoid a lot of unnecessary grief.
BTW, I think the new socks are a plot -- no one is going to want to pull up their beautiful new socks to see what's underneath. :-)
Edits: 04/04/14
Josh...
As I have never hidden, my lack of "electronics knowledge", their plot of new socks will keep me out of ripping them open...that is why I posted the question to Waz, (who has no fear factor), see his response within this post...
Yes, they are very decent people...yes, they exhibit old fashioned business ethics...yes, they could have handled this much better IMHO...
And not being part of that industry, I do not understand all their concerns and at this point...I am done guessing...
In the Planar/magnetic design, similar to Magnepan, who is their competition??? Do we include the Electrostatic manufacturers as part of their competition??? IMHO planars and stats are two different animals, that only share; they are both true di-pole speakers designs...
Which brings us back to; "But still, I think some basic information of the kind most audio manufacturers have traditionally supplied (including Magnepan) would avoid a lot of unnecessary grief."
Whether the amount of "grief" is acceptable or not, it is of THEIR own making...one little paragraph on the website, included with their announcement of this upgrade...would have eliminated the majority of grief and potential bad blood; that this code of silence has caused...IMHO...I believe the majority of us owners, would have been satisfied with that...verses just "better"...
Wendell's stance that this will blow over, once they have more professional and customer reviews may well be true...I am not doubting that he does know his customer base; passionate, loyal, neurotic...(at least I am)...but yet somewhat insulting to the current 3.7 owners...IMHO...
Thanks again for jumping in on this..
take care
Mark
Mark, Josh rightly named the Eminent Technology magnetic-planar speakers as the main competition for Magnepan. Are you familiar with them? The LFT-8b uses a sealed 8" dynamic woofer for 180Hz down, with a pair of m-p LFT drivers for 180Hz to 10kHz (that's right: 180Hz-10kHz, with no crossover!), and a ribbon tweeter above that. Not nearly as well known as Magneplanars for some reason (other than few dealers and even fewer reviews ;-), but with a devoted cult following (and rave reviews in the UK press, as well as The Absolute Sound, for what that's worth ;-). $2499/pr.There were earlier, pure magnetic-planar ET models: the LFT-3, LFT-4, and LFT-6, all now collectors items. I own pairs of LFT-4, LFT-8b, and Magneplanar Tympani T-IVa. Love 'em all! If I had a spare 15 grand, I'd buy a pair of Sanders ESL's.
Edits: 06/07/20
I don't think they have much planar competition. There's Eminent Technology, which makes a very good hybrid, and a few smaller companies at both the low and high end of the market. In high end home theater/architectural audio, there's BG and Wisdom Audio, but for the most part their ranges don't overlap.
I suppose their main planar competitor is Martin-Logan, which of course makes ESL's, and some of the mid-priced stats, although in my experience people tend to favor one technology or the other -- they each have tradeoffs. Some technology is common to planars and ESL's, some isn't. For example, diaphragms, tensioning, tuning, damping, baffles, pole pieces and stators -- all similar, and that's where a lot of the black art is. Some of Magnepan's technology would definitely transfer, and vice-versa. But the electronics -- transformers, crossovers, HV power supply, etc. -- are quite different. And then there are the other ESL makers, mostly in the moderately high/high end of the market.
There are other manufacturers of true ribbons as well, often used in hybrid dynamic systems, and the occasional interesting wider range ribbon. But their main planar/ribbon competitor folded years ago. Electronics manufacturers aren't in direct competition so their relationship is essentially synergistic.
"We, the customers who purchased 3.7s not too long ago, would like to know something about the modification in order to figure out whether or not it's worth the price of admission. We know absolutely nothing beyond, "Our listening panel liked the improved model better." The silence makes no sense and nothing you said makes it any more sensible or excusable."
+1
All kind of repairs for us outside North America are more or less unpayable. Whish Magnepan could set up a repair shop in Europe. There are a few guys over here that can do some repairs but not if there is a severe damage to the Mylar (you must be able to measure the tension). The original shipping boxes are no good for shipping across the globe. If you build some better ones, shipping becomes very expensive. Then we have customs/tax, in both directions...
Not quite right.
You are taking production time away from making product for full-profit sale.
In manufacturing, one of the MAIN reasons for quality….and building it right FIRST rather than 'Inspecting' and 'fixing' is the time and effort you spend doing all that REWORK. Fixing stuff that should have been right the first time is expensive.
Not that the original 3.7 was in ANY way defective. Magnepan just found some cost effective improvements and made some 'on the fly' changes. But for purposes of 'upgrade' to 3.7i status? No difference.
Keep in mind, too, that nobody REALLY knows what the difference between 3.7 versions IS. If it is just some capacitors? Simple to change on the fly, but requires some disassembly to get at any internal caps and time / effort to modify the external crossover. IF it is just something as simple as crossover caps in the external box, that makes shipping a breeze and making the changes fairly simple….and cost effective. If it's just caps, you could even ship kits to 'authorized repair centers' for the install…..with Magnepan supplying the parts and arranging a labor buy-down for the shop doing the actual work.
As soon as you must ship the ENTIRE panel and crossover? You're in for it now! And must take steps to protect the ribbon. Not to mention the million and one STAPLES to remove the sock to get at any internal parts.
A change in tension of the main driver mylar? Now you're talking an expensive fix with all new parts. Something few 'original' 3.7 owners may want to pay for.
I'm standing by waiting for real news on what the change actually consists of.
Too much is never enough
In the first place, this upgrade is evidence which contradicts something for which some have criticized Magnepan. It makes it apparent that the company does, indeed, tinker with their 'completed' products. Many have clamored for the company to offer 'tweaks', and now they are offering one. That's the good news. I just find it bizarre that the 'mod' in question is shrouded in absolute secrecy - not one shred of information beyond, "It's an improvement!"
Were I to appeal to the members of this forum to send their speakers to me for an undisclosed improvement, how many takers do you think I'd find? Love him or hate him (I'm indifferent), PG not only spelled out his upgrade, but provided the details of the crossover design he used - including the specific parts. Which is the classier approach? Although I was critical of some of PG's behavior, I cannot compliment him adequately for his full disclosure. That, my friends, was generous in the extreme and it stands in diametric opposition to the topic of this discussion.
As I said elsewhere, I don't take issue with the cost. As you accurately described, performing such an upgrade is costly for a manufacturer. As this is the 3.7, there is no external crossover - it's all under the sock, which makes whatever they have to do more of a PITA. Perhaps, if it is 'nothing more' than a crossover modification, Magnepan feels that we will be critical of the $500 fee, and I don't doubt that some would be (there will always be those who complain, and I am aware that I am doing so in this thread).
You're also right that the 3.7 is not, in any way, defective . That doesn't mean that an improvement can't be found. Nothing is perfect - the 3.7i isn't perfect, though it might be better than the 3.7. What would be great is to know HOW . Is that so much to ask? If it's the bass that's been improved, as some have suggested, then the upgrade is irrelevant to me. Without a single scrap of information, how can I choose? I'd rather not depend on speculation. The manufacturer should answer this query.
They may not have an active Internet presence, but they do have computers and are aware of this forum. I hope they read this thread and rethink their furtive attitude regarding this upgrade. Please, Magnepan, choose to be open and forthright. Provide us with a little illumination. Otherwise, we are left with the unsettling realization that PG demonstrated more class about his modifications than you do.
I do find it interesting, waz, that Magnepan espouses zero Internet contact with their customers. The only other mfrs I have anything to do with, both sponsor their own Fora - Linn (TT) and AKSA (amps).
Linn have had their LP12 Forum for many years - most posts (on the LP12 Forum - they have others, for their other products) are by LP12 owners but Linn people do contribute - and answer questions. (Such as " what is the difference between this model and the last "!)
And AKSA is a direct-to-customer business model, so Hugh knows he has to have an Internet presence (although he spends less time than he should, IMO, keeping his product web-site up-to-date! :-)) ).
I suspect the Magnepan "attitude" is due to Wendell's age? He's more comfortable with old-style face-to-face contact?
Regards,
Andy
...that Wendell prefers face-to-face contact, or a real-time, telephone conversation (and talking with him is quite enjoyable), he has never failed to respond to any email (that invited a response) I've ever sent him. Access isn't really the issue; it's meaningful information. Many have inquired; none have learned a thing. Although some claim to know, I seriously doubt it. Besides, I've read conflicting 'insider' information from which I can only infer that they don't know what they think (or pretend) they know.
I've talked to Kevin and Brent at VAC, and I've communicated with them via email. They are only too happy to share deep details, and they always seem to relish the opportunity. In fact, Kevin will 'talk your ear off' ;-). An engineer whose name I can't recall at the former Mondial sent me schematics as well as some modification suggestions. I could keep going, but you get the picture.
As I'm sure you remember, Wendell did pop his head up on this forum a while back, but his reception was less than welcoming - no need to dredge that stuff back up, eh? Of course, there are other possibilities, but I suspect you are absolutely right about why they have no 'presence' anywhere. Then again, the reigns are now in the hands of the next generation.
I think I'm a reasonable individual. I endeavor to understand situations like this from their prospective, as well as my own. I don't understand this one at all. The response evidenced by this thread seems rather predictable - to include a few harshly embittered comments. In my book, animus of the customer base is not desirable. In today's tenuous climate, I don't think it's particularly wise to be so disobliging.
"I can't hear any difference!" What the hell did I just pay you guys 500 clams to do (or not do)?!"
My guess at that cost point it's along the lines of 'Razoring' but then again; who knows?.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
Most individuals who spend hundreds of dollars for an improvement will experience one. Toss in the weeks without one's 3.7s and the table is set for a perceived improvement, even if absolutely nothing were done to them.
I'm afraid that's all one big guess. The secrecy behind the change is incomprehensible and unacceptable. It's given birth to all types of rumors, wild guesses and assumptions. Why? What possible purpose does it serve?
I'd never spend > $900 (round trip) to ship both panels and XO for a $500 upgrade. Can you imagine if the panels were damaged on the way back?!So they're going to remove the rails, unstaple a gazillion staples on both panels, do what they have to do inside, possibly tinker with the XO, re-staple, re-attach the rails, test the panels, rebox em', all for $500?
Time to play armchair quarterback: From a company's standpoint, consider: -the cost of labor involved for two men to handle these huge panels -getting the job done in an hour (maybe 90 min; I'm guessing...hell for their sake I hope it's the former),
-the cost for parts (x2, if both panels) which is most likely a cheap, cheap capacitor.So if the normal labor cost is $150 per hour (as quoted by Michelle a while back) they're looking at a $300 or $400 minimum it's costing the company to perform this $500 task. Then you have to ask yourself does this project hinder the 3 series team in building pending orders? Hell it's a great way to pull OT if you're the builder no doubt. But that of course cuts into company profits.
If it's upper management performing this upgrade ie Wendell et al, then the cost is nil, chalk it up as the cost of doing good business, comes with the territory, and believing in what you do in support of a quality product.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
Edits: 03/29/14 03/29/14
Green Lantern wrote:
"So if the normal labor cost is $150 per hour...."
Sheila told me they charge $49.00 and hour.
Spoke with Sheila and she states $49 an hour.
My note taking is usually meticulous; perhaps it was a miss-quote back then.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
The $49 an hour is for dismantling, testing etc. Seems to be flat rates for new Mylar and wiring. Tympanis are $250 for each driver, $300 for new ribbons etc.
Can you smell the desperation for information???
thanks
Mark
GL, you are a class act...
She said she didn't know and I would have to speak to a 'tech' (most likely Mark or Wendell no doubt) but I left it at that.
Despite the shroud of secrecy and smoke and mirrors; you gotta love those folks at White Bear lake lol...
Just keep crankin' em out!
may the bridges I burn light the way-
That is exactly what I would have guessed she was going to say...under direct orders not say anything but what she did....
Meeting her a few times...if it was up to her...she would tell you everything and most likely a little more on top of that...
She has a very fun loving personality, enjoys her work, tremendous pride in the product and her coworkers....
They are a very lean machine in middle management...they all wear multiple hats...lots of gray hair 55+...this "internet thing" sure is a pain in the A$$, "takes allot of our time away from us getting everything we need to get done, ya-no?...." in the Minnesooooooota dialect/grammar...
So, no rock throwing at them...two sets of doors and couple of sound rooms in-between...well...we are frustrated...
Thanks
Mark
GL...I would have bet the farm, that you would have asked "something" about their first FACTORY upgrade ever offered...thanks man...
She's always been helpful whenever I had to phone them over the years. Never left any stone unturned, always made sure I was satisfied with the information I got.
Ditto for Margaret her predecessor, who I believed retired around the same time Jim did.
The reason I didn't dig into the 3.7i upgrade was because I didn't want to pull Wendel or Mark away about a product I don't even own. Not my style.
Besides I already knew what their answer would be. I'm sure when they're ready to reveal it they'll announce it in one form or another.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
I'm pretty sure she quoted me $150 and that's per panel since I wrote $300 in my notes. This is for MG20s.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
That is what I remember when I had the 1.6's completely refurbish...
If the two ladies that do ALL the repairs, are doing the upgrades...they have always been, first come first serve basis....which means weeks to months...potentially...
If you have to wait for the production run of 3.7i's, who knows how long...the production jigs change over in all the different departments depending on which model they are producing...they run basically one model at a time...
I believe except MMG's....
They were running, 3.7's when I got my tour last August...the QR jigs are very cool...
If there is any re-tensioning; the socks are coming 100% off, typically if that is case, they put on new socks...if it is just crossover parts being swapped out, they will not take the socks 100% off, they loosen and peel them up....
For refurbishing the first place they stop is sock removal...then get put on the wall by the refurbishing ladies with an RA number taped to it with the corresponding paperwork...
After repairs are done, they go into a sound room for testing prior to putting the socks back on; once they pass that test, socks are put back on and they are re-tested in the sound room, prior to getting boxed up in shipping...
At $50 per hour, my 1.6 refurbish was $450, after 12 years of use, I had major wire delamination; that included new socks....I was quoted $300-$600...anything over that, they would call me....I was comfortable with that...
So the $500 cost...is 10 hrs of labor, duh....put the of cost crossover parts swapped out, if any???? (which I do not believe would be a huge cost for them), and do you get new socks??? Which is $100+/-....
IMHO, they are doing it close to cost...I do believe they are making something $$$ on it, but I do not believe it is much...
This is all voodoo conjuncture on my part...
I will do what I can to find out as much as possible...
I will check to see if they are willing to handle door to door shipping...
thanks
Mark
The 'fee' for the upgrade is probably a flatrate.
Just like when you take your car in for a given repair. They'll check the 'book' and charge you book time….regardless of how long it really takes. A good mechanic makes lots of money by being paid basically piecework per repair and BEATING book time. A friend of mine, MANY years ago started as a car mechanic. His first task was installing Air Conditioners in Subaru. The 'book' time, IIRC was something like 5 hours. Even as a novice (albeit Talented) he could do one in 3 1/2 hours. The pro guys? About 45 minutes quicker which meant they could do 3 in an 8 hour day. I don't know if my buddy EVER figured out how he was 'wasting' 45 minutes!
I suspect Magnepan is simply charging some kind of flat rate for the upgrade and not actual hours or whatever.
And until there is Greater Disclosure, that's all 'ya got to go on.
10 hours? that's 5 hours per panel or ONE complete 'person-day'. Imagine how much a trained person with ALL the right stuff and perfect working conditions could get done in that amount of time. I know working in sub-optimal conditions, it takes me about 2x the amount of time anyone else would take to do the same task with proper tools and setup. or even 3x! OUCH.
Too much is never enough
Yes, I do agree about the "flat rate"...
I have estimated large scale precast concrete projects my whole life...from production to installation...so I have always looked productivity per man hour...now add that to an entire crew of people...
then add a 100 ton crane...we are operating at about $2200 per hour...if we set more than 3 panels an hour, we are in the black, if we set one, we are not...
My point on the hourly rate and man hours, if it involves different stations, it does not take much, to get to 10 hours of labor with multiple people working on them....they are not paying their employees $50 per hour, but as a "shop rate", it is not out of line at all IMHO...
The two ladies in refurbishing, that is 16 hours per day of highly skilled workers, as you stated; with the right tools and ideal working environment...they can really crank things out...
But since we do not know $hit, of what actually is being "upgraded" and what it involves, it is all conjecture as I also stated...someone did look at the internal cost of doing this upgrade....said we won't lose money doing it $500...it will cover our costs and "should" please our customers that we can improve a current model without them having to buy new speakers....well there is a slippery slope...as this post has proven...
People for years have complained about how Magnepan does NOT do any upgrades...instead, they let the models run for years, until they feel it is a significant enough change/design to warrant a new model...
When I bought my 3.7's, I felt very confident that I would not have to wonder or worry about a 3.8 for years and years...historically speaking, why wouldn't I think that...so yes, like the majority of 3.7 owners I was pissed...who wouldn't be...
The biggest rub of this whole thing....!@#$%* shipping, what do are overseas friends do???? My friend Hasse in Sweden...3.7 owner...
Is this something that a qualified dealer could do??? Because of the Maggie Code of Silence, beyond ridiculous IMHO...With JA ASKING Wendell to review a pair...then getting told no, because of the testing and not wanting their dispersion characteristic published??!!?? Really???
Not looking at what a rave review would do for sales. I am guessing the people at KEF with their LS50 are getting maximum mileage out their review and product of the year...what did that do for their bottom line???
DIY tweekers, were pissed with the series x-over in the .7 models because...no bi-amping, no bi-wiring, not as tweeker friendly as previous models...as of yet...
I personally would have thought by now, that someone here would have ripped open a pair to take a look and possibly do some upgrades on their own...swapping out x-over parts...
Quick upgrade story...I had a CJ 17LS, as soon as I got it, they came out with 17LS II, similar to Waz's story...I called CJ and just happened to get Lew Johnson on the phone, (MN boy), so I started shooting the breeze with him...by the time I was done talking, he agreed to take my old preamp in on a trade and sell me a knew one for minimal $$$...no local dealers anywhere in the Midwest at that time...so he was ok selling it to me direct....which he did not like, but said he would make an exception with me...its a MN thing...
thanks
Mark
If the mod has multiple tasks which can be done in-parallel, than put several people on it and proceed. If it can only be done 'in series'…..one person probably will prevail.
With a pair of panels? You can have 2 people doing 1 panel each…and do 2 pair per day if the specualtion on labor rates and such are correct.
As long as the speaker has those friction slip on tabs, crossover mods are as simple as disconnecting the crossover and doing as you will….even to the extent of retrofitting a x-over from the 3.6 and will be limited only by the modder's imagination and initiative.
Too much is never enough
The difference is $500 (cost to upgrade) plus shipping.
From what Magnepan says, the difference was too small to designate with a "3.8" but is significant. Reading between the lines, this means there was a change to the crossover as a change to the mid-woofer panel would probably cost more. Whether the change warranted a 3.8 designation or not probably has more to do with the wisdom of not pissing off a bunch of customers who just bought the latest and greatest. As best I can tell the difference between the IIIa, 3.3 and 3.5 were tweaks to the crossover with the drivers unchanged but that did not stop Magnepan from coming out with new designations. OTOH changes to the xo with the II series just generated a letter modification (IIa, b, c). Who knows what goes into marketing decisions?
Edits: 03/27/14
Sure seems like Magnepan's all over the board with all the new, and 'new and improved' offerings over the past few years since Jim Winey retired.$500 for the upgrade along with shipping and you're looking around the neighborhood of around $1500 clams (depending on where you live I guess). Not to mention downtime, along with neurosis and extreme nail biting brought on by the fear of shipping perfectly good panels across country for a $500 upgrade!
This hobby is definitely a big mo-fo at times.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
Edits: 03/28/14
When it comes to shipping, bigger is not always better. I just had my DAC upgraded and I was glad it was small and shipping was within the state.
Would like to hear back from anyone with the upgrade.
neolith wrote:
"As best I can tell the difference between the IIIa, 3.3 and 3.5 were tweaks to the crossover with the drivers unchanged but that did not stop Magnepan from coming out with new designations."
The drivers ARE different. Just look at the number and placing of the buttons and strips for tuning.
You are much more observant than I, thanks for the correction. However, if the changes were only placement of buttons and strips then my observation about minor changes generating new model designations remains correct but if there were other changes such as panel size, etc then I stand corrected.
I read somewhere else the the change was a difference in tensioning which improved bass a bit. The change was already implemented in production line.
...is stronger mid bass. I don't need more bass either as mine aren't reproducing the bottom octave. So, if that is the upgrade, I don't need it. Of course, all of this is really just hearsay as Magnepan is mute on the subject.
I believe Magnepan might have generated some good will by offering the 3.7 to 3.7i conversion as a mere courtesy to any owner of that "latest and greatest" who was willing to undertake the trouble and cost (as well as the down time being speakerless) of shipping them to and back from them. Considering all their costs, including labor how much profit could be earned by performing this conversion??
I fully agree with you that Magnepan is just trying to offer their customers the best product and after dealing with them for over 30 years, I am sure that the cost of the upgrade just covers their costs and no profit is being made. However $500 seems to me to be a lot of money for what is probably a marginal improvement. Of course, I am a tightwad and a skeptic and naturally have not compared the 3.7 to the 3.7i. Lack of facts should not be a reason for withholding opinions - it's the basis of political discourse in this country.
My comment was only about the marketing decisions concerning product designation. Unlike a lot audio manufacturers, Magnepan is slow to change designations and so bringing out a 3.8 model after only about 2 years would probably upset their fan base.
Since in very short order Magnepan's latest seemingly turned out not to be its greatest and their cost and any profit in making the upgrade is small, or non-existent if any at all, they should 'eat' it's cost and perform it free of charge!
What gets under my skin is having no idea what that cost covers. Okay, I know it covers the upgrade, but what, exactly , is the upgrade? What possible motivation could exist for not revealing any details about what the upgrade is or even what it addresses? My suspicion matches Neo's - the crossover is re-worked (and the only basis I have for that assumption is the cost). I don't suspect Magnepan is making money on the upgrade, but that it is being offered as a courtesy to those of us who already own 3.7s. I sincerely appreciate that, but I don't appreciate the secrecy.
For all I know, the upgrade could be meaningless to me (considering my configuration).
I feel Magnepan has done themselves a gross disservice with their posture regarding this "3.7i" phenomenon. If I were a new comer wishing to acquire a panel type speaker and was made aware of this 3.7i scenario, I'd be highly dissuaded from purchasing a speaker system from these people.
Every time this topic is broached, I get a little more irritated. You're right that $500 is not an insignificant expense, but I'd be willing to pay it for an improvement that I considered valuable. As I have no idea what the improvement is, how the hell can I determine if it is valuable?I never thought I'd say anything negative about Magnepan, but this annoys me greatly. First, I took a hit when I purchased the 3.7s because I didn't wait - not because I was impatient, but because the answer my dealer received when he inquired about a 3.6 replacement was, "It will happen eventually, but..." Since the impression we were given was that the 3.7 wasn't immanent, I ordered a pair of 3.6s, only to see the release of the 3.7 a few months later. Now, the 3.7s have been 'improved' and I'd have to take another hit to get mine up to snuff. Hell, if I keep taking hits on them, I'll end up with a pair of 3-series that cost me as much as a pair of the 20s!
The secrecy only pours salt in the wound. What does the upgrade entail? Sorry, we can't reveal that. Okay, what deficiency does it address? Sorry, we aren't going to reveal that either. Hmm, then why should I send them to you? Because, we'll make them better! Yeah, but how? They'll sound better. Fine, but in what way? We aren't telling, but our listening panel agreed. So, I should just pack up my relatively new speakers and send them back to the factory for an undisclosed upgrade that will cost me another $500, plus shipping? Hey, it's completely optional. You're right about that and I'm opting out! That's too bad. If you let us upgrade them for you, you'd be pleased - scout's honor.
Yep, if I were a prospective customer and I witnessed such an exchange, I'd cross that manufacturer right off my list. No, that exchange didn't actually happen, but it does seem to characterize the situation we 3.7 owners face.
Edits: 03/28/14
Waz...
Your fictional conversation, IMHO is exactly what they say...
Me being the brash loud mouth I am, (very aware of my long list of character defects), I will pump them for as much info as I can get...when I have it done...
thanks
Mark
Ps. Have you opened them up and look at your crossover? Knowing you are a guy not afraid to take a look....
A couple of months ago, I started the process. I disconnected them and set up another pair of speakers (my old AR91s). I had every intention of digging into them, but a week later, I hadn't done a thing - except decide that I wanted my 3.7s back in service.
Sitting here, listening to them right now, I don't feel compelled to tinker with them. They are pretty darn fantastic speakers, even without the 'i' designation. Besides, mine are already improved.
I hope you can arrange a quick turn-around and suss out what changed about their sound.
First, yes you have already "upgraded" yours...
Second, they are really really good speakers...
Third, the curiosity is killing me...as I have said, no shipping has made the decision for me...if I had to ship them...HHHHmmmmm I would have to know exactly what I am getting and paying for...I do not believe that is asking too much...
I was on floor this afternoon with a flash light, trying to look at the x-over...can't really see anything, not that I would know what I am looking for...but was trying assess what open heart surgery would entail...then I was going to look on the MUG board see if there were any photos of 3.6 sock replacement...then thought...why bother...
So, when I take them in, I will bring bagels, (which have done previously and got allot of mileage out of a few bagels), wear something alluring and see what info I can walk away with....
Does anyone know if the 3.7i's have shown up at any dealers yet???
thanks
Mark
Magnepan is under new management!
This "Bad Blood" is Mark's doing!
I do not think Jim would have pulled this "TOTAL BS"!
with their general charge of $150 an hour labor (which they'll most likely eat) would lead me to think it can't be that extensive of an upgrade.
may the bridges I burn light the way-
Edits: 03/29/14 03/29/14
I think every last one of us agrees that Magnepan should fully describe what it exactly is that goes into the upgrade. In my book $500 + 2 way shipping ain't peanuts. It represents the cost of one of Magnepan's complete speaker systems, which many inmates here seemingly live and die for.
I should have added that I feel it's more than enough that the 3.7 owner is faced with the problems and cost of packing them up and shipping them to Magnepan, they should pay the cost of return shipping (which presumably they get at greatly reduced cost when compared to an individual customer).
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