Planar Speaker Asylum

Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share you ideas and experiences.

Planar Speaker Asylum

Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday

160.62.4.10

The speaker in question was a completely rebuilt pair of Apogee Scintillas. Several things were done to improve this speaker over the original Scintilla:

All new ribbons were installed supplied by Graz in Australia
All new crossover components were used (same circuit though)
Completely rebuilt and reinforced frame that also was extended to put the ribbons further off the floor and thus allowing the speaker to be placed vertically (the original was not so tall and tilted backwards).

The system:

Olive music server
Resolution Audio Cantata CD/DAC
Silvaweld SWC-1000R preamp
Lamm M1.1 monoblocks

The sound was one of the best I have heard from a planar speaker. Very good soundstage and tonal accuracy. True deep bass from a planar without needing a subwoofer. Low level and microdynamics on par with the better electrostatic speakers I have owned/heard (the STAX ELS-F81 is better at this but it is better at this than just about every other speaker on the planet). Macrodynamics had real punch as did the bass. This same friend also has the Studio Grand and while it is good, the Scintilla is much better, although to be fair the Studio Grand without the subs hooked up has smaller panels (he doesn't use the subs because they don't integrate very well).

Compared to the Maggie 3.7 I heard recently, this thing is the real deal and the Maggie sounds a bit like a toy.

Follow Ups:

RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - A.Wayne 10:15:38 02/17/13 (0)
I can believe the sound of the scintillas especially after the upgrade , they were always better than maggies when in production so i would not expect anything different today after the upgrade ..

Regards
Josh read my post below...even your claims through measurements are way off - morricab 14:53:55 05/15/12 (4)
Looking at Maggie measurements and historical Apogee measurements its clear which speaker line has a sharper resonance and at more critical frequencies; hint it isn't Apogees. The 1.6 and 3.6 both have strong High Q resonance modes at relatively high frequencies that are likely to strongly interact with room resonance modes. Maybe the really big Tympanis were different by shifting the frequency low enough to avoid the worst of the problems...like the apogees but generally they will have a "one note" tendency, whereas the Apogees are clearly a lower Q more distributed resonance (clearly seen in the Diva, which has outstanding bass quality). My evidence is in the post below.
- Morricab read my reply - josh358 18:05:13 05/15/12 (2)
  Such a response would indeed sound dreadful. Fortunately for Magnepan's survival as a company, they were actually quite flat. See the always-wonderful Siegfried Linkwitz's letter for an interesting explanation of why Stereophile's measurements were misleading, and the letter that follows. An excerpt:
  
  "Where things fall apart is in fig.3 when you form the complex sum of nearfield measurements and the 50" tweeter 'farfield' measurement. This curve does not represent the frequency response a listener might experience at any distance and is therefore extremely misleading.
  
  "The nearfield frequency response of an acoustic source is only proportional to its farfield response if the source is small, ie, omnidirectional, and if it is in free-space. Summing a driver diameter corrected woofer nearfield response to a farfield midrange response works for a small monitor on a stand, but already has errors when the speaker is larger and the woofer is close to the floor—when the conditions move away from free-space or anechoic.
  
  "The Magneplanar is clearly not a point source and, being open-baffle, it has an acoustic short circuit between front and back. This causes a 6 dB/octave low-frequency roll-off in the farfield response. So from all open baffle nearfield measurements you have to subtract first a 6dB/octave (= 20dB/decade) slope before you can sum the data with other farfield measurements. When you apply this correction to the MG3.6 woofer response you see that it flattens from 400Hz to 60Hz and shows a peak at 47Hz. Similarly the midrange has to be corrected before you can use it for the composite response."
  
  Then check out the more accurate 3.6 measurements that I reproduced in my post.
  - Linkwitz Letter in Stereophile (Open in New Window)
  - RE: Morricab read my reply - morricab 03:23:29 05/16/12 (1)
    My point was the PEAK, its sharpness and especially its frequency (i.e. relatively high and susceptible to excitation and/or room resonances). I am well aware that the amplitude is not really accurate given how Stereophile measures.
    - RE: Morricab read my reply - josh358 05:39:35 05/16/12 (0)
      Yeah, but if you look at the correctly-done measurements in my other post you see that the peak is actually trivial.
      
      I used to think that people would read the caveats but it's become increasingly clear that these measurements confuse people. In my opinion, Stereophile should either find a way to do in-room measurements (John Atkinson says the problem is a logistical one) or stop running them, for planars, anyway.
- RE: Josh read my post below...even your claims through measurements are way off - JLindborg 15:30:34 05/15/12 (0)
  I think You explained it better then I did.
  
  The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - KIS 18:46:49 05/12/12 (0)
My favourite Audio Saloon plays the Duetta all the time. I must have heard them over and over for at least two years.

Also

My neighbour / good friend (two minutes away), used to own the Divas. He had them for a few years and I am there almost every week.

Heard them with Rowlands, MacIntosh, Krell, Classe, Crown etc.

One thing about Apogee that I perceive as a weakness is the one note bass. No matter what Lps you throw at them, the bass sounds the same. This sameness in bass also make the ambience of all recording venue same-ish.

I will take a pair of well stacked 57s any day.
RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - tyu 07:52:19 05/12/12 (76)
So you say

Compared to the Maggie 3.7 I heard recently, this thing is the real deal and the {Maggie sounds a bit like a toy}.

That how i see it....it good thing most here have never seen a pr of Apogees....or thay may tose to the side there maggy for real panel sound...Maggys are just a lot of fun for the money...No more no less...Best i have got out of the Apogees were the old Krell KSA 250...An the Krell KBX crossover...some say the 250 was made for the Apogees....thanks for the post....goodluck
- RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 08:23:08 05/12/12 (75)
  I daresay most of us have seen and heard Apogees. I wasn't impressed -- the ones I heard were very poorly voiced. Since I never heard them in a home, I wouldn't debate Morricab's assessment. Wendell does say, though, that the Maggies did well going head-to-head against the Apogees at dealers. Look at a frequency response curve of a Magnepan and a comparable Apogee and you'll see immediately why that would be so.
  - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - jazzbeat 16:53:53 05/13/12 (74)
    I am inclined to disagree. Depending on the Apogee model the frequency
    curve is as flat if not flatter in some cases. The boys at Apogee
    were not limited in the engineering skills. I have had the Caliper
    and not even the sigs and was very impressed. Set up and proper
    equipment make a big difference. I would have to say after owning.
    MMG, 1.6, 3.6 and the ET VI and VIIIa's ( three times now) that
    the Apogee in some ways had a better blending of the soundfield
    from octave to octave. Could be bass heavy at times but depending
    on the room was very realistic.
    I believe the point that as been made as to VOICING of all of these
    is very true. IMO, found the Apogee could be a bit dark but was
    well made up for by the larger true mid range ribbon. Presently
    I am using ET 8a's again and was suprised at the change in voicing.
    The ET's and Maggies in my book are voice with a strong emphasis
    on the mids. One thing that suddenly struck me was the loss of
    lower mid range tonality that the Apogee has. In some ways
    a quality the Magnepan and ET could use. To elaborate I am a
    bass player of 35 years mainly jazz and soul and am well aware
    of the tonality of most systems. Low frequencies these days
    are being augmented with sub woofers which in my opinion sound
    anything BUT natural. A boom and lack of damping are not what
    I consider the true tonal character of a lower octave tone but
    it seems to be the norm in many systems ( and their associated
    setups). When say a cannon goes off in say the 1812 one should
    have a clean and fast attack with little resonance or ring.
    This is far from what I hear with most subs. The Apogee
    when set up properly can give an honest reproduction of these
    ranges and no or far less resonant ringing or hangover.
    As for the curve of a good Apogee check out the specifications
    on this review.....
    
    http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/caliper_sig_hifinews_dec1989.htm
    
    this in the measurements section shows a +/- 2.5 DB 38-20,000 hertz
    measurement
    
    and in this article the concept of dynamic compression of which
    the Magnepan and Eminent both are affected by.
    
    http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/calipers.htm
    
    This being the FIRST thing I noticed when going back to Maggie, ET
    system...
    
    As for myself the ET's are a temporary fix until I can get
    back into a pair of say CAL SIGS...
    
    just my 2 cents...
    
    cheers....
    - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - mmlrot1 06:00:30 05/14/12 (1)
      I have listened to Apogee Scintillas many times and can say they are quite good,
      especially when driven by huge Krell amplifiers. They go slightly lower than Magneplanar
      Tympani,s but have that one note bass that others have commented about.
      
      Imaging is not very good and the over all balance is not as pleasing as my Tympani
      bass and Martin Logan Summits, (no xover in the vital midrange), which effects
      imaging and balance.
      
      Low level detail is the main reason I like the Summits and when combining with
      Tympani IV bass gives one a wonderful and spacious soundstage with awesome
      midbass. Also the Tympani, Summit combo has a soundstage with huge depth that the Scintillas
      lack.
      
      As far as reproducing the 1812 Overture with conventional subwoofers is concerned,
      (all) cone subwoofers ring and distort when trying to reproduce the cannons. Until
      one hears the Magneplanar Tympani bass with a rotary subwoofer (transient energy
      is enormous and response down to below 1 hz) one will never appreciate what this
      awesome sub can do. From a distance the cannons reproduced by the rotary sub
      sound very real (I was in Vietnam and have felt and heard mortars also from a distance)
      
      This is the only subwoofer that will work properly with the Tympani IV bass, (coherence,
      power, transients), with out effecting the wonderful mid bass. Taking the enormous
      strain off the Tympanis (below 25 hz) and the power
      amplifiers driving the Tympanis improves the mid bass as well.
      
      As far as the highs are concerned, nothing can surpass or equal the Hill Plasma,
      which my friend has added to his Apogee Scintillas and Stages. A real education
      on what high frequency reproduction can sound like.
      - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 14:51:43 05/14/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by mmlrot1 on May 14, 2012 at 06:00:30
        
        Damn. I was hoping to find subs that went down to 14 Hz and that I could cross over at 30 or so without coloring the IVa's midbass, using a very high slope digital crossover. Infinite baffle would work in my room, so I was thinking a couple of the GR drivers with the servo amps set to 14 Hz and critical damping. In truth, I don't care if the sub colors the sound a bit when there are fundamentals below 30 Hz, since there so rarely are. I just want to handle the occasional pedal note and explosion, and get the sense of ambiance that Jim and others have mentioned.
    - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 19:04:11 05/13/12 (71)
      I'm a bit confused about the compression article. As far as I know, neither the current Maggies nor the planar part of the Eminents should be more susceptible to thermal compression than the Apogees. It's a matter of conductor surface area, really, and efficiency. Roughly similar insofar as they use similar technology. Then he says that the Calipers exhibit dynamic compression above 100 dB. As do Maggies. So, as I said, I'm a bit confused, they all compress dynamics, with larger planars of course having more headroom. I do agree with his assessment of the subjective importance of good peak level handling, an area in which audiophile speakers typically fall flat on their faces compared to their pro equivalents (just about the only area, though).
      
      I'm not very familiar with the sound of true ribbon mids, but if they do for the mids what the true ribbon tweeters do for the highs, they would certainly sound better. As I think the article points out, the fundamental resonance can be kept below their frequency range. The magnetic field is also more linear as a function of displacement. They can also be driven over more of their surface, all of it in the case of an all-aluminum ribbon. But they have some technical disadvantages as well. The Apogee ribbons are more massive than the Magnepan ribbons, and in their two-way models much wider as well. And they're susceptible to torsion at high levels, and to failure from fatigue, apparently one of the things that drove Apogee out of business.
      
      I've heard a couple of complaints that the Apogees have one-note bass, most recently in this thread. You can see it here in the Duetta Signatures, in Figure 4:
      
      http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/duetta_sig_hifinews_dec1988.htm
      
      I've never heard dynamic bass that has the definition of planar bass. Not saying that it isn't possible, with, for example, a dynamic dipole design. But in practice, I haven't heard it.
      - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 01:43:33 05/14/12 (70)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 13, 2012 at 19:04:11
        
        Josh, you are speaking about things you don't really know about. You obviously have only very limited experience with Apogees or planars other than Maggies. All planars suffer from similar limitations, this is clear. However, some are more limited than others.
        
        One thing is for sure, the Apogees have less of a one note bass than most other planar speakers. This has to do with the trapezoidal shape and variable tuning of the bass panel that spreads the resonance over a wider frequency range and reduces the peak. Maggies, having a rectangular panel, are the most susceptible to a resonance peak, the main cause of one note bass. However, as I have explained it also has a lot to do with amplifier choice.
        
        For the record, I wrote the review on the Apogee Caliper Signatures from Positive Feedback so I will explain a bit further. I ONLY heard one not bass from my Caliper Signatures when a friend brought his Krell KSA250 over one time. It had more slam but no texture and was a clear one note boom. It has to do with the fact that most SS amps are OVERdamped and Apogees generally don't need that damping to control the bass. I had very good success with a wide range of low and zero feedback amps (including a pair of 20 watt SETs up to the mid 90s db...loud enough for most listening).
        
        As to my experience with planar speakers: I have owned in this order: Audiostatic ES100, STAX ELS-F81, Infinity IRS-Beta, Apogee Caliper Signature, Acoustat 1+1, Acoustat Spectra 2200, Acoustat Spectra 4400, DIY ribbon hybrid with BG Radia driver and 10 inch woofers (full active).
        
        You will notice that I did not ever own Maggies. Why? Because after hearing several models from friends who owned them (1.5qr, 2.2(3?)r, 1.6qr, and 3.6) I never wanted to own them. Compared to many other planars I have owned they sound veiled, especially at low levels (and especially compared to the electrostats like Audiostatic and STAX) and compared to the other planars they sound dynamically constrained. I recently heard the new 3.7 and I still feel the same way.
        
        The only planar speaker that I am still perhaps intersted in trying someday would be an ET VIIIb.
        
        As to further experience with Apogees, I have several friends who are serial Apogee owners. The friend who has the rebuilt and improved Scintillas also has the Studio Grand and the Centaur Major, both of which can be easily driven with my 30 watt KR Audio SET and we have proved this even in a large room. The friend who rebuilt the Scintillas (he is an approved installer here in Europe) has the Apogee Grand (arguably the best speaker ever made), the Full-Range (the original Apogee), and several smaller models.
        
        Two other Dutch friends have Scintillas, a German friend also has a Grand as well as my old Caliper Signatures and the littlest one the Stage. He used to also have a pair of Divas as well as Maggie 3.6 and a pair of VMPS RM30 planar hybrids.
        
        Suffice to say I have heard Apogee compared to Maggie many times and Maggie always loses. Maggie compared to Acoustat also loses (Acoustats are far more coherent, work much better at low levels and have better bass).
        
        Are Maggies bad? Of course not but they are simply not playing in the same league.
        
        My point was that I heard a rebuilt Scintilla that was to my ears a reference level speaker, built like a tank but with a beautiful finish. It was supported by reference level electronics and the sound was far far beyond what most people achieve with their systems. Does the rebuilt Scintilla cost a lot more than a new 3.7? For sure. Is it more than a new 20.7? No. Is it better? Probably.
        
        If I could have the purity of the STAX and the power of the big Acoustats or IRS Beta, then I would have the perfect speaker. The only one I have heard that comes close to that ideal is the Apogee Grand and the Dali Megaline (except for deep bass...it needs perfect subs).
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 08:43:57 05/14/12 (65)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 14, 2012 at 01:43:33
        
        You may not have seen my original replay to TYU. What I said was, "I daresay most of us have seen and heard Apogees. I wasn't impressed -- the ones I heard were very poorly voiced. Since I never heard them in a home, I wouldn't debate Morricab's assessment." In other words, I was responding to TYU's claim that "most here have never seen a pr [sic] of Apogees," rather than debating your conclusions. I've discussed the Apogees with many here.
        In any case, what I heard at CES wasn't in any case different from what critics have reported, including you in your review. But I think it's also clear from both reviews and published measurements that not all Apogees suffered from those tuning issues. In particular, I'd love to hear the Grand.
        While I haven't heard Apogees under ideal conditions, I'm not as you suggest unfamiliar with other panels. I don't think anyone would suggest that planar magnetic magnetic speakers are as transparent as electrostatics or true ribbons. This essentially comes down to the waterfall plot: the more steeply the plot of a driver falls off, the more detailed and transparent a driver is.
        Unfortunately, stats typically have other problems, e.g, SPL and bass limitations, beaming, and "plasticky" diaphragm resonances. It's possible to find stats that fix one or another of these problems but if there were a stat out there that solves these problems and wasn't twice the size of my listening room, I'd buy it, because I agree -- my ideal speaker would combine the transparency of the Stax with the slam of the Betas.
        A friend of mine had Betas. They were ertainly gutsy speakers, but they lacked coherence, with each frequency range emanating from a different height. I wasn't sorry to go back to my 1-D's, which had a naturalism that the Betas, impressive as they were, lacked. The IRS V was IMO in a different class entirely.
        I see that Roger has already addressed the bass. I'm guessing that the problem here is that Apogee couldn't get around Magnepan's patents. They used an Olson-style truncated pyramid to spread the resonances but couldn't tailor the response the way Magnepan can. Hence the fact that so many of their woofers have good extension but a boomy fundamental resonance that can be as much as 10 dB on the response plots. As you point out, that can now be fixed with DSP.
        Another problem with the Apogees, and one that apparently contributed to the demise of the company, was that midrange ribbons don't last very long. Even tweeter ribbons will eventually fail when played at very high SPL's due to fatigue. The excursion of midrange ribbons is significantly higher and apparently Apogee had a lot of in-warranty failures which were very costly to fix. Which is too bad, since ribbons have some real advantages. If you could figure out how to make a replaceable low-mass ribbon assembly in a non-labor-intensive way, that might solve the problem. Something that snaps in like the ribbon assembly on the Raal's. You'd have to deal with a long, fragile ribbon that has to be aligned with great precision since the slightest misalignment will give you harmonic distortion or rubbing. Then it wouldn't matter if it had to be replaced once a year.
        Since neither of us have heard the 20.7's, I don't think we should judge it. But I gather that they've reduced the mass of the midrange so it's now more stat-like. According to Jonathan Valin, it isn't as transparent as a CLX, but it's very transparent indeed. Here's how he described it:
        "Second, you won’t get quite the same microscopic inner detail you get with certain electrostats, such as the MartinLogan CLXes, or the current kings of low-level resolution chez Valin, the Raidho C1.1 two-way mini-monitors. Not that I think that anyone will actively pine for more detail when listening to the 20.7s—by any reasonable standard they are incredibly high-resolution transducers capable of bringing out nuances that the majority of other speakers, including speakers that cost a good deal more than they do, simply don’t know are there. All you have to do is put on a recording like the Melodiya LP of Prokofiev’s First Violin Sonata and listen to the clarity and realism with which the 20.7s reproduce the incredible variety of the great Gidon Kremer’s bow strokes (a fantastic panoply of articulations) to grasp, in an instant, how high in detail (both instrumental and performance-related) these big Maggies really are. (The 20.7 features a newly designed quasi-ribbon midrange driver, which is said to have half the mass of the quasi-ribbon panel in the 3.7, making for a better fit with the featherweight tweet and the highest midband resolution of any single-panel Maggie I’ve auditioned.) Unless you’re intimately familiar with the sound of the Raidhos or the Logans or the Magico Q5s, you’ll never dream that you’re missing anything (and you aren’t missing much)."
        He also refers to dynamic compression, but he makes the same point about the dynamic range limitations of the CLX's.
        I'm very familiar with the Eminent Tech drivers, I have a pair on my desk, and while they're very, very good they aren't as transparent as stats, either. Fine as the Eminent's are, I don't think you'll get what you're looking for, which I assume is stat-like detail.
        
        Edits: 05/14/12 05/14/12 05/14/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - jazzbeat 15:32:14 05/14/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 14, 2012 at 08:43:57
        
        I am not sure where you come up with the limited life span of Apogee
        speakers. Mine were twenty years old and were still working fine.
        I think it is easy to place statements as to worn drivers on a
        set of speakers that have not been manufactured for 20 years....
        Not many people own them due to age and now that ribbons by
        Graz are available maybe the few left will remain..
        
        Cheers...
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - jazzbeat 15:28:17 05/14/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 14, 2012 at 08:43:57
        
        In a follow up it is suprising then to see companies
        like Analysis Audio offering a similar product as
        the Apogee. As I remember the last time I looked
        them up their cost was a few dollars above Magnepan
        and Eminent Technology and yet they have a strong
        following with many great reviews.....
        http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0306/analysis_omega_planar.htm
        Cheers...
        
        Edits: 05/14/12 05/14/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 16:07:54 05/14/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by jazzbeat on May 14, 2012 at 15:28:17
        
        Well, to begin with, I'm told that one of the reasons Apogee failed was the high cost of warranty repairs on failed ribbons. There's a post about that somewhere here on the Asylum, not sure how to find it.
        Add to that, people who have built DIY midrange ribbons and report that they have to replace the ribbon every year or so.
        Add to that, discussions I've had with speaker designers who confirmed that ribbons suffer from fatigue and eventually fail when driven at realistic levels. Fortunately, few audiophiles listen at realistic levels, me included. See the recent thread on that: Satie was the only one of us who did. If you baby your ribbons, they should last indefinitely. Also, I'm not sure how Apogee-style quasi-ribbons hold up compared to all-metal ones. But they apparently did have a lot of failures, since that's what they were using at the demise of the company.
        I've heard varying things about the Analysis, which is inspired by the Apogees, but not the same. The Apogees themselves were made over many years and comprised many models. I've heard Apogees that I didn't like. I've also heard good things about some models that I haven't heard, and have no reason to doubt them.
        Maybe these measurements will help clarify why I didn't like the Apogees that I heard. They're from Martin Colom's comparison of the Duetta II, the MG-IIIa, and the CLS.
        Here's the Duetta II:
        
        And here's the MG-IIIa:
        
        See why I might prefer the IIIa?
        This is the kind of voicing problem I heard in the Apogees I listened to. Again, I'm not saying they affected all Apogees. But it's why I heard what I did, and made the comments that I did.
        
        Edits: 05/14/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 10:35:53 05/14/12 (61)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 14, 2012 at 08:43:57
        
        I like my Magnepan 20.1, but here @tyu is right.
        For you Magnepans are the only speaker in the whole world.
        Of course they don' have issues like others(delamination, poor workmanship, lousy feet, lousy wire,five cent magnets, lousy terminal material) they don't have drum resonances like other planars( why there are those buttons, how about the bass?, poor dynamic, harshness of QR.. ).
        Go and hear a Apogee Fullrange and you will know what I'm talking about.
        You talk like George Bush.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 11:30:43 05/14/12 (60)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 14, 2012 at 10:35:53
        
        Berni, you accuse me of talking like George W. Bush, then misrepresent what I have said. Which leads me to wonder which of us, really, is talking like George W. Bush.
        *Nowhere have I suggested that Maggies are the only, or best, speakers in the world.* What I have said on that topic, repeatedly, is that they generally outperform other speakers at their price point, for those who have certain priorities. I do not think I really have to argue on that point. There is a reason they've sold 200,000 of them.
        To set the record straight: The delamination issue has been solved with new adhesives. The adhesives have been in the field for almost a decade now and Magnepan reports that delamination is no longer occurring.
        I saw a lot of Maggies in various states of completion at the factory, and I saw no evidence whatsoever of shoddy workmanship, by which I mean workmanship that would degrade the sound, reduce reliability, or lead to cosmetic flaws. Elizabeth's stripped screw seems to be about as bad as it gets. Complaints about workmanship seem to come from people who look at old speakers from the era when delamination was still occurring, or who don't understand production tolerances. If it has no effect on the sound, it matters only to the marketing department. There's lots of high end equipment that is designed to what one might call marketing tolerances -- fit and finish that has no effect on sonics. Those who want sound for the buck will look elsewhere.
        It makes no difference how expensive magnets are. What matters is whether they do the job. Wendell points out that it costs less to use a high power amplifier than it does to use neodynium magnets. Neodynium magnets are used only where there it's necessary to the design, e.g., in small planar speakers like the Neo-8's, or in planars that have to achieve very high SPL's. Otherwise, you'd be pouring money down the drain.
        No one has ever heard wire in a speaker. Even some manufacturers who use fancy wire in their speakers admit that they just do it because of audiophile beliefs. The wires are too short to make a difference.
        The connectors suck, certainly. If you want better ones, they're easily changed. If you keep your connections clean with deoxit, they shouldn't affect the sound.
        If the feet change the sound, it's news to me. You'd have to go to a more elaborate frame to improve the sound, or use Mye stands.
        I didn't say planars don't have resonances, that would be ridiculous. They use the buttons, and diaphragm tension, to tune the resonances. This is planar 101. If you look at the in-room frequency response, you'll see that many Apogees have one-note bass. Here is a measurement of the Duetta Signature. Case closed.
        
        Bass depends on size. Most would say that the Tympanis have the best midbass of any speaker. At the opposite extreme, the MMG's need a sub. In this, they are no different from dynamics and ESL's, which have varying degrees of bass extension and slam. Like any dipole, they have smoother bass than an omni. Some of the smaller Apogees have deeper bass than Maggies of equal size. But they have that one-note peak. Pick your poison.
        Maggies, like most planars, have limited dynamic range. But the dynamics depend on the specific design. Satie gets his Tympanis to 120 dB. My MMG's start to sound strained in the 90's. For $100,000, the Wisdom will do 130 dB SPL's at the listener's seat. One chooses the speaker one needs. As Peter Walker said, 90% of listeners will be happy with the output levels of Quads. Again, you choose the speaker that fits your needs. I went for dynamic range, more than I use these days, and got a pair of Tympani IVa's. But I wouldn't force my choice on anyone else.
        Some people put SMALL amps on Maggies and then claim that they have limited dynamic range. These are inefficient speakers and if you want to hear what they can do, you need a megapower amp. You may not choose to listen at those levels, most don't, but one shouldn't make claims about the dynamic capabilities of an underpowered speaker.
        Ditto the QR. Those who can fit them go for the true ribbon models. No one, including Magnepan, has ever suggested that quasi ribbon drivers can equal a true ribbon.
        
        Edits: 05/14/12 05/14/12 05/14/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - apog 19:17:39 05/14/12 (59)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 14, 2012 at 11:30:43
        
        In addition to the graph, here are some quotes taken from the Colloms review:
        "In general the bass was reminiscent of a well set up Tympani IV - high praise indeed - while the Signature goes further and appears to define the word 'slam' in an absolute manner. Free from audible compression at
        any subjective sound level, this Duetta puts together correctly the weight, bang and edge of a transient bass note. Once you have heard it, you know it is right. All manner of drum sounds, large and small, were
        played with conviction, and so obviously free from the boom, overhang, ringing, boxiness and blurring which are the norm with lesser speakers. Moreover, when wafting large quantities of open, free bass into the room, this speaker showed no loss of detail in the mid and treble."
        
        Doesn't sound like 'one note bass' was an issue in normal listening.
        
        "Response testing a speaker of this size in a listening room is rather a headache, and the curves here should be regarded as rough guides only. Graph 1 shows a 'snapshot' of the reference response at the recommended lateral and vertical listening angles. Given the circumstances, the result is quite remarkable, extending easily from 30Hz to 20kHz, and meeting approximate ±3dB limits above 200Hz."
        
        Good or bad, sounds like planar measurements should be taken with a grain of salt to some extent.
        
        "Save in the 30Hz 1/3-octave, the Duetta performed quite remarkably well in the listening room using the standard integrated RAR measurement (Graph 4). In fact over most of the range it is virtually flat, rolling
        off above 16kHz and is correctly 'brighter' than the measurement for a system with a point-source dome-tweeter, since the Duetta approximates to a cylindrical radiator. Confirming the listening results, the output is exceptionally homogeneous, meeting tight ±2dB limits from 80Hz to 12kHz. Down to 40Hz the bass is unusually even too, within ±3dB of the 1kHz reference level; but at 30Hz the Signature moves into higher gear, with an undamped output rising 7dB or so above the adjacent bands. It didn't sound as bad as it looks, probably due to the low incidence of genuine 30Hz in programme; such effects placed at 40 or 50Hz are distinctly audible. The effect of the room must also be taken into consideration, and a larger space may well moderate this 30Hz effect."
        
        Here possibly some support for 'one note bass' if one listens to recordings with significant 30 hz content. Or is it the result of the "19 x 13½ x 9ft lwh" room?
        
        Taking the totality of the review's comments under consideration, I'd say that "Case closed" is about as accurate as was "Mission accomplished".
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 19:53:27 05/14/12 (58)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by apog on May 14, 2012 at 19:17:39
        
        I'll go with the measurements, thanks, and the three people who have mentioned one note bass.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JLindborg 00:35:35 05/15/12 (37)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 14, 2012 at 19:53:27
        
        "I'll go with the measurements, thanks, and the three people who have mentioned one note bass. "
        Josh!
        A man in Your stature and respected position here on this forum should be aware of room and placement requirements for any given speaker.
        And there are people that can't place speakers well or don't have a good room for them either.
        And setting up a planar in the same spot as the next will not render a very well comparison as every planar with it's special size and construction will need it's own special placement and room size to match with.
        I know You know this.
        As an owner of Apogee Duetta II, I can only say that it has no one tune bass what so ever.
        If I place them wrong and in a bad room, I will have NO problem what so ever to get a one tune bass. And that goes for any other speaker too.
        That is why I don't like my home living room at all.
        At this moment I have a pair of speakers that are flat from 20Hz-20kHz but boom like crazy at 42Hz in this room and thus give a very well noted one tone bass.
        The only solution to this at this moment is to integrate and cross them with my sub so that I get a dip at the problem area.
        But at another place I have does not cause any problem and that's where I do my major speaker work.
        It's a bit wrong to compare a pair of Duetta II with a regular MG IIIa or a 3.7 too as they are too "small" and does not require the same room size as the Duetta to sound "flat".
        A better comparison would be Tympani.
        Also, anyone who would like to compare a pair of old and not serviced Duettas with new planar speakers would not get the right picture as the Duettas and a few other Apogee's really need a major service to the wood structure as it bends over time and sets the membranes tuning out of place.
        Here is an example and should be taken into consideration!
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        Edits: 05/15/12 05/15/12 05/15/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 06:42:16 05/15/12 (33)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JLindborg on May 15, 2012 at 00:35:35
        
        Well, I don't know about stature, but I do agree with you about room placement. :-)
        
        I've seen various measurements of various Apogees and typically they show a high Q resonance at the bottom of their range. In that, it's no different than say the 3.x measurements that show a resonance higher up. You can't say exactly how the resonance is going to play in a given room but you can see, after seeing multiple measurements, that it's present.
        
        I should add that it wasn't the measurements that led me to mention one-note bass, but what I've heard from people in a position to know. I'm in the frustrating position here of having a technical explanation that I was asked not to pass on. So all I can do is point to various measurements, and what Roger and Mmlrot1 said.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 14:23:18 05/15/12 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 06:42:16
        
        Well actually the frequency of the resonance is quite relevant. A higher up resonance could easily reinforce room resonances in a smallish room. For example:
        http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg16qr-loudspeaker-measurements
        
        With a resonance at 75 Hz many room modes could get excited.
        
        or this one:
        
        http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements
        
        With a resonance of 45Hz that is very sharp, I would expect a heavy one note effect with the 3.6r.
        
        Then there is something like the Duetta II, which was a far inferior speaker to the Duetta Signature, but nonetheless still has its resonance peak at a low 25-30Hz...not easily excited by most music. To quote:
        
        "Finally, we come to the computer-averaged response assessed in the listening space (fig.4), a summation of some 64 responses. In my 80m$s3 room, the 30Hz and 25Hz bands were clearly excessive in level, with the 30Hz rising 12dB above the computed median. Note that the bass rise was part of a rising curve and not an isolated "boom." "
        
        So even the quickly replaced, too bass heavy, Duetta II (not a favorite among Apogee lovers, BTW.) was a well distributed bass albeit a bit excessive in level. No sharp resonance like the two graphs for the Maggies.
        
        The tiny (by planar standards) Stage has the same resonance frequency as the big Maggie 3.6. Listening to the Stage, I can tell you that it has quite good and authoritative bass although not ultimately as "slammin" as bigger panels, like the big Scintilla bass panel.
        
        http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/diva_stereophile_august1988.htm
        
        Notice for the Diva its a totally different story. It has a distributed bass resonance that you can really see the different tuning that results in a lower Q resonance over a wider range, in this case from 50 to 25Hz.
        
        I can tell you from experience, the Diva has a very realistic, powerful and smooth bass. FAR superior to anything I have heard from a Maggie.
        
        The Scintilla also has strong resonance but at a very low 25-30Hz, again too low to be easily excited by most music. There is a mild resonance at 50 Hz as well but it is not excessive.
        
        http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/scintillating_apogee_hifinews_sep1985.htm
        
        For the Duetta Signature:
        "In general the bass was reminiscent of a well set up Tympani IV - high praise indeed - while the Signature goes further and appears to define the word 'slam' in an absolute manner. Free from audible compression at any subjective sound level, this Duetta puts together correctly the weight, bang and edge of a transient bass note. Once you have heard it, you know it is right. All manner of drum sounds, large and small, were played with conviction, and so obviously free from the boom, overhang, ringing, boxiness and blurring which are the norm with lesser speakers. Moreover, when wafting large quantities of open, free bass into the room, this speaker showed no loss of detail in the mid and treble."
        
        http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/duetta_sig_hifinews_dec1988.htm
        
        note the relatively broad resonance rather than a sharp peak.
        
        Note also that the RAR is very smooth and even except for a peak at 25 Hz. "Save in the 30Hz 1/3-octave, the Duetta performed quite remarkably well in the listening room using the standard integrated RAR measurement (Graph 4). In fact over most of the range it is virtually flat, rolling off above 16kHz and is correctly 'brighter' than the measurement for a system with a point-source dome-tweeter, since the Duetta approximates to a cylindrical radiator. Confirming the listening results, the output is exceptionally homogeneous, meeting tight ±2dB limits from 80Hz to 12kHz. Down to 40Hz the bass is unusually even too, within ±3dB of the 1kHz reference level;"
        
        "but at 30Hz the Signature moves into higher gear, with an undamped output rising 7dB or so above the adjacent bands. It didn't sound as bad as it looks, probably due to the low incidence of genuine 30Hz in programme; such effects placed at 40 or 50Hz are distinctly audible. The effect of the room must also be taken into consideration, and a larger space may well moderate this 30Hz effect."
        
        So, for the most important models Apogee made, they clearly had more understanding about "one note" tuning than most other planar makers.
        
        The one note effect, which can effect any planar, was LESS pronounced in most Apogees due to their tuning and this is clear from most of the meausrements.
        (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 16:06:36 05/15/12 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 15, 2012 at 14:23:18
        
        Those Maggie curves are Stereophile's Patented Meaningless Planar Woofer Measurements, made at the diaphragm and guaranteed to confuse the hell out of anyone who doesn't know that you can't measure planar woofers at the diaphragm:
        To illustrate, here's Stereophile's measurement of the 3.6/R:
        
        Contrast with Home Theater's pseudo anechoic measurement, conditions unspecified:
        
        http://www.hometheater.com/content/magnepan-mg-36-16-cc3-surround-speaker-system-measurements
        And finally, the measurements that matter, made by somebody appropriately named Mike at the listening position in his treated listening room (note divisions are only 1 db):
        
        According to Mike, "Except for a bump at 100 Hz, they are flat within 3 dB from 30 Hz to 20 kHz, and from 150 Hz to 20 kHz flat within 2 dB. That 100 Hz bump is a room mode. My tube traps shrank it but could not eliminate it."
        http://mclements.net/Mike/audio/Onkyo-Adcom-Mag.html
        The same thing is true of all planars -- you can't measure the woofers up close without getting a huge bass boost that doesn't exist in the far field (or rather is cancelled out there). They have to be measured in the listening position of a room, and then you have to take the specific room into account, e.g., by showing the curves of some other speakers of similar design measured in the same room (e.g., they can't be omnis and dipoles, since they interact with rooms differently).
        That's true in part of the Diva graph, it's measured at 1 meter so I'd expect it to exaggerate the bass to a certain extent, unless they corrected for proximity. So the Diva's woofer may be flatter than it seems. Either way, I noticed the same thing you did when I saw that graph yesterday, the resonance is distributed. It certainly doesn't look like it would suffer from one-note bass.
        In the case of the Signature, I was looking at the room-averaged response. The 1 meter response doesn't mean much. So I'd accept his "at 30Hz the Signature moves into higher gear, with an undamped output rising 7dB or so above the adjacent bands. It didn't sound as bad as it looks, probably due to the low incidence of genuine 30Hz in programme; such effects placed at 40 or 50Hz are distinctly audible. The effect of the room must also be taken into consideration, and a larger space may well moderate this 30Hz effect." Above that, performance seems to be excellent.
        So, better extension or 30 Hz peak? That's why I said pick your poison. I'd take the peak myself, because I'm all digital and could just equalize it away. But most people seem to be adverse to bass equalization. So in this case they'd have to choose between the smooth Maggie bass or the extended bass of the Apogee. And of course that's just one of many things that could drive the decision. As I said, I wasn't disputing your conclusion, since I've only heard the 3.7. Just pointing to a problem in the bass, just as one might point to the limited extension of the smaller Maggies or that puzzling 2 kHz dip in the 3.6/R (has anyone figured out why that's there yet?).
        
        Edits: 05/15/12 05/15/12 05/15/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 03:36:37 05/16/12 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 16:06:36
        
        Josh, to use a biblical parable, its like you are trying to pick the speck of dust out of Apogees eyes while there is a board in the Maggies eyes. It is clear that in some environments both speakers will have the potential for "one note" bass but from my POV it is more likely to be the Maggie BECAUSE they have resonances in the range where there is sufficient real music energy, both from the source and from the room. The Duetta signature bass is a perfect example of a planar speaker that is VERY unlikely to have a "one note" issue because A) It is very flat in the bass down to 30Hz and B) What music besides pipe organ and some electronica have bass at 30 Hz? Footstomps of T-Rex probably wouldn't mind a bit of resonance for emphasis but normal music just normally isn't down there.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 06:10:19 05/16/12 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 16, 2012 at 03:36:37
        
        Morricab, the IIIa's don't have potential for one-note bass because the in-room response doesn't have a significant bass peak. I'm not sure why you're making such a fuss about this. It's a flaw that the Maggies don't have. The Maggies have flaws that the Apogees don't have. You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that Apogees have flaws, even though you do in your reviews.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 05:01:25 05/20/12 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 16, 2012 at 06:10:19
        
        Its a flaw all planars have, Josh. The Maggie 1.6 and 3.6 show that there is a strong resonance peak that will be mitigated by cancellation but it is still there nonetheless.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 06:26:08 05/20/12 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 20, 2012 at 05:01:25
        
        That peak isn't a flaw, it's intentional. Planar woofers are intentionally underdamped to compensate for 6 dB/octave dipole cancellation. They have to be or they wouldn't have any bass! This is what the response of an uncorrected dipole loudspeaker looks like:
        
        The ideal woofer response curve, if you're after maximally flat bass, is the precise inverse of the rolloff. This is true whether the speaker is a planar or a dynamic. Carver for example underdamped the dynamic woofers in his Carver Amazing dipoles. Linkwitz uses electronic equalization in his H-frame dynamic dipole sub, but that puts very heavy demands on the amplifier. He has an interesting analysis on his site.
        
        Edits: 05/20/12
        
        It is also inherent in the panel shape - morricab 00:34:02 05/21/12 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 20, 2012 at 06:26:08
        
        A uniform shape (such as a Square) would be a real no no due to the very strong (high Q) modes that will be generated from the symmetry of the shape. A rectangular panel will have strong resonances as well and this is because when it is tight it will have refelctions, if it is loose then it will have a very low resonance that is likely never to be excited (eg. Apogees ribbon midranges have a resonance in the single digit Hz range while they crossover in the 300-500Hz range). Clearly the Magnepan panels have strong modes due to the shape and the tensioning.
        
        Clearly this can be used to offset cancellation effects, but not entirely at the resonance itself. I heard this to some extent with my Acoustats (particularly the 1+1s and almost not at all with the 4400) and less so with the Apogees. If you lower the Q of the resonance by distribution of tension in the panel and by having a non-uniform shape it works generally better and in the case of the bigger apogees pushes the resonance almost below all music excitation (very little music at 30Hz).
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - josh358 06:17:26 05/21/12 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by morricab on May 21, 2012 at 00:34:02
        
        Yes, a true ribbon can keep its primary resonance below the operating range. That, and the more linear magnetic fields, are the two advantages that I know of in a midrange or tweeter ribbon.
        As I think Roger pointed out, the rectangular shape makes no difference to Magnepan. They had the patent on variable tension which does the same thing as the truncated pyramid shape and they had the patent on partitioning which allows you to tune the response of the panel any way you want it, something that AFAIK apogee couldn't do.
        Push/pull stats are intrinsically unstable, which puts a lower limit on diaphragm tension. I'm not sure if this is an issue with the Apogees. Magnepan, however, could/can put the resonance down where Apogee does. They chose not to.
        
        Edits: 05/21/12
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - JLindborg 09:49:42 05/21/12 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by josh358 on May 21, 2012 at 06:17:26
        
        "Magnepan, however, could/can put the resonance down where Apogee does. They chose not to."
        They could but that would render a Magnepan speaker totally useless. So they won't.
        You know why. ;)
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        Edits: 05/21/12
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - Roger Gustavsson 22:53:08 05/21/12 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by JLindborg on May 21, 2012 at 09:49:42
        
        The lower the resonant frequency, the higher the Q. A high Q resonance at a low frequency will limit the SPL, the diaphragm cannot move very much before hitting the magnets. Nearfield measurement will show the low frequency behaviour. My own Tympani Bass Speakers (the woofer section of the Tympani IIIA) showed a peak of about 12 dB somewhere between 30 and 40 Hz. Such a peak will force the diaphragm to move a lot! The tension of the diaphragm acts as a "soft limiter", there will be some degree of non-linearity due to this. There use to be a level dependent frequency response. Larger movements will be restricted by the tension of the diaphragm, the resonant frequency increases and the Q decreases. The diaphragm of the Apogee is not elastic as it is the Magneplanar type of driver, therefore the use of springs to tension and suspend the diaphragm. Without the suspension from the springs, only very small movements of the diaphragm can take place. The Apogge bass drivers can make greater excursions than the Magneplanar drivers. It also means that a Magnepan need larger diaphragms in order to move the same amount of air.
        
        Roger Gustavsson
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - JLindborg 00:24:31 05/22/12 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by Roger Gustavsson on May 21, 2012 at 22:53:08
        
        I am sorry, but the spring supported tension has no influence at all in the large excursion possibility of the Apogee.
        If it were it would have to ad to the sum of moving mass and it is not. It does not move.
        There is a good reason to why the springs are there but I won't get in to that as it would be purely educational.
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - Roger Gustavsson 02:44:41 05/22/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by JLindborg on May 22, 2012 at 00:24:31
        
        Well, the Apogee patent describes the way it is supposed to work.
        
        Roger Gustavsson
        http://forumbilder.se/show.aspx?iid=0a220121142359b78 (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - JLindborg 03:34:54 05/22/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by Roger Gustavsson on May 22, 2012 at 02:44:41
        
        Yes it does. But I think You might have misunderstood it a little bit.
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - Roger Gustavsson 22:01:08 05/24/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by JLindborg on May 22, 2012 at 03:34:54
        
        Jerker (JLindborg) has given me some more insight information. I have to correct myself about the way the Apogee bass is working, the patent is not very clear on some points.
        
        The bass diaphragm is tensioned, heavily tensioned in one direction, across the short dimension, with the help of springs. The springs are there to take up any variations caused by temperature, ageing etc., not to introduce a suspension. This is also a reason to why the panel can warp with time. As the diaphragm is corrugated in the other direction (top-to-toe), it can move rather freely. The tuning is held by the springs, giving some stiffness across the diaphragm. The damping strips of soft foam around the edge also let the diaphragm move a bit. Unfortunatley, the foam use to detoriate.
        
        Roger Gustavsson
        
        RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape - morricab 02:24:52 05/22/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It is also inherent in the panel shape posted by JLindborg on May 22, 2012 at 00:24:31
        
        However, Analysis Audio DOES have a rubber suspension of some sort around their Apogee like bass panel.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JLindborg 07:57:49 05/15/12 (17)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 06:42:16
        
        "Well, I don't know about stature, but I do agree with you about room placement. :-)
        
        I've seen various measurements of various Apogees and typically they show a high Q resonance at the bottom of their range. In that, it's no different than say the 3.x measurements that show a resonance higher up. You can't say exactly how the resonance is going to play in a given room but you can see, after seeing multiple measurements, that it's present.
        
        I should add that it wasn't the measurements that led me to mention one-note bass, but what I've heard from people in a position to know. I'm in the frustrating position here of having a technical explanation that I was asked not to pass on. So all I can do is point to various measurements, and what Roger and Mmlrot1 said. "
        
        I am not really sure of what technical design "flaw" that would be.
        But if You take an equally bass mastering speaker like the Tympani, it too will have a significant boost at around 40Hz.
        That too would be lowered in a bigger room.
        That is why I take some of the measurements with a grain of salt. (Swedish expression).
        
        As for this forum, I too feel it's sometimes are prone to bashing any other speaker apart from Magnepan's speakers.
        I don't know why that is. But it gives a weird taste in my mouth.
        So when a person are absolutely thrilled by a listening session with an Apogee speaker, he are in for a big resistance.
        Sad but true.
        
        I too have asked if this is a Magnepan forum before.
        Maybe just a very dense Magneplanar population...
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 09:33:55 05/15/12 (16)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JLindborg on May 15, 2012 at 07:57:49
        
        Well, Maggies get bashed here too, frequently. :-)
        
        After all, Morricab started this thread with "Compared to the Maggie 3.7 I heard recently, this thing is the real deal and the Maggie sounds a bit like a toy." A sentiment which I didn't dispute, since I've only heard the 3.7 and so have no personal opinion to offer, just a sense of curiosity.
        
        I see discussions of the pros and cons of various speakers more as a source of useful information than some kind of dick size contest. I'm curious to know what their strengths and weaknesses are, both from an engineering perspective and the perspective of improving my own system.
        
        Some seem to have gotten the impression that I was out to bash Apogees here, but that wasn't the case. Like any speakers, they have strengths and weaknesses, and different people may consider one or another more important given their preferences and the type of listening they do. In his review, Morricab described some of each.
        
        My personal speaker choice was based on a number of factors, and always included improving the IVa's where they're weak -- mostly in the midrange -- and taking advantage of their strengths, e.g., their midbass reproduction and the true ribbon highs (also subject to improvement since the ribbons have been improved). And I've often said that if I could do anything, I'd probably do what Mmlrot1 did and combine the strengths of Tympanis and stats. But I think Satie's Neo approach is also good, and it's more practical for me. So I'm still leaning towards it. An Apogee-style midrange ribbon could be good as well, if it were practical for me to do, which it isn't.
        
        It troubles me that since I mentioned a few Apogee weaknesses, people seem to think I'm on some kind of anti-Apogee crusade. No speaker is perfect and no speaker has a perfect combination of strengths. And each manufacturer makes a line of speakers, with varying qualities, and improves them over the years.
        
        For Clarification - jazzbeat 15:53:28 05/15/12 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 09:33:55
        
        You have made a few posts in regard to the frequency curve of the
        Apogee. One on the Duetta II and the later on the Dueta Signature.
        The curve system you show is an old one and the top end of the
        scale is 40,000 Hz not the typical 20,000.
        If one looks at the following curve set and then the ones you have posted
        in reference to the following curve of a Magnepan 3A one see's and reads
        that the peak of the curve of the Magnepan is roughly 16,000 hz. This
        is roughly the same peak or highest output from the Apogee.
        With the Duetta II curve on sees a rough output of - 5db at 16,000.
        Really not bad and in reality higher output than that standard
        Eminent Technology VIIIA ( I know well after owning 3 pair).
        With the Duetta Signature one sees a curve that appears to be close
        to +/- 2.5 to 3 dB from 50 to 16,000. Not a bad curve for any speaker.
        I have to wonder how many here have any real hearing above 16,000 and
        as I remember I believe teenagers are the only ones on the planet
        who have hearing acute enough to hear to 20,000.
        
        Might happen to notice the articles comparison to the Apogee to the
        3A. Not trying to stand on a point but I don't like fiction in
        my reality..
        
        http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/reviews/stereophile_mg3a.htm
        
        Cheers....
        
        RE: For Clarification - josh358 17:04:04 05/15/12 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by jazzbeat on May 15, 2012 at 15:53:28
        
        I wasn't the one who criticized the high frequency response of the Duettas, though I agree with AndyR that response above the threshhold of audibility matters. This is for two reasons. One is that when a driver suffers from mechanical rolloff, it is acting like a low pass filter, and filters have audible effects below the cutoff point. The other is that a driver with higher mass will have inferior air damping, and in a ribbon tweeter, that will be audible. The ultra-low-mass Magnepan tweeters are pretty much the state of the art among ribbon tweeters in that respect.
        Regarding Coloms conclusions, what makes you think I dispute them? They seem obvious: the CLS is more transparent in the bass and midrange, the Apogee in the midrange. What I was objecting to in the Apogee, at least insofar as I can tell from looking at the response curve, is its voicing. This:
        
        Will not sound as good to me as this:
        
        If you were to put these speakers side by side, I would probably choose the Maggie, despite its inferior midrange definition. Others might choose differently, particularly those whose primary goal is the reproduction of studio pop rather than acoustical music. The deciding factor for me though would be the midbass/lower midrange suckout and the rising midrange, since these are more significant sonically than amplitude response variations in the extreme bass and treble.
        
        Edits: 05/15/12
        
        RE: For Clarification - Satie 15:03:04 05/16/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 17:04:04
        
        The "one note bass" on the large apogees is a matter of room fit. Put them in a small room and you get a dark FR and one note bass - even worse than the FR sweeps indicate - which is quite benign.
        
        But in a proper room, like a 20X30+ room at the dealers where I heard them most often, the big Apogees are well balanced and have a ballistic quality to their bass that I only get from my Tympani when they are braced to the wall, even then, despite all the power afforded to them, the bass is still a little lacking relative to big Apogees (Diva Scintilla and less so with Caliper/sig mini/Grand - which I heard there).
        
        The Apogee Full Range I heard in the used room at one of the Audio consultants stores was badly out of tune in the bass and was overwhelming one note and even wooly.
        
        There is one good solid thing about the Apogee midrange and that is its ability to provide transient impacts that can't be had from other planars save the BG Neo8 family (in long arrays). unlike the maggie and even neo8 mids, there is a much lower threshold volume where the speaker provides full detail. It is not too far from what you can have from Quads or Acoustats or the ML CLS.
        
        For mezzo piano listeners like Morricab, there is no way you can use a maggie, but you might get away with an Apogee. You can also get away with a Neo8 array, but though it matches or exceeds big apogee mids in every other subjective measure of performance (particularly the lack of the high spl screetch of the apogee mids and tweeters), it can't do low volume linearity quite as well. Fortunately for me, being a forte listener, it does not pose a problem.
        
        The Stereophile measurements were done in JA's rather limited space and they are done too close to the speaker (including at his listening seat). I would doubt that they reflect what someone who buys a large apogee would hear in the large room they would probably place it in.
        
        I will also agree that when you play even at moderately loud levels, the 3.x models do "sound like a toy" in comparison to a large Apogee, or a large maggie, for that matter. The 3.7 don't review as being any different in that regard.
        
        RE: For Clarification - josh358 19:46:37 05/16/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by Satie on May 16, 2012 at 15:03:04
        
        As Wendell would say, you can only design a woofer for an average room, a smaller room is going to have more and rougher bass and a larger one less and smoother, and of course the modal frequencies are going to vary as well. So it makes sense to me that a speaker that's bass heavy in a small room could be more neutral in a large one. I don't think a lare room would smooth out the bass, though. This is not just a room artifact, it's an underdamped fundamental resonance. Without Magnepan's partitioning patents I don't see how they could have controlled it while maintaining good extension and compensating for dipole cancellation, which requires an underdamped alignment.
        
        What you say about the midrange corresponds with what you and others have said in the past. Goes into a bit more detail, actually. Doesn't surprise me given the difference between true and quasi-ribbon tweeters, waterfalls, stats, JV's comparison between the 20.7 and CLX, etc. It basically comes down to how steep the falloff is in the waterfall.
        
        You can of course get higher SPL's out of the larger Maggies and Apogees, and deeper bass. Judging by the listening level thread, the 3.7's SPL capability won't be an issue for most. I thought its bass was superb, by the way. Wendell says that quasi ribbon makes less of a difference on the woofers but I heard a new assurance in it.
        
        RE: For Clarification - morricab 13:48:07 05/16/12 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 17:04:04
        
        Will not sound as good to me as this:
        
        pure SPECULATION
        
        RE: For Clarification - josh358 15:10:49 05/16/12 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by morricab on May 16, 2012 at 13:48:07
        
        Not really. If you're familiar with the operation of a a graphic equalizer and know a bit about psychoacoustics, you have a pretty good idea of how these speakers are going to sound, tonally. You could tell even more if the measurement set was complete.
        
        Try it, find a graphic equalizer app and dial in the room curve.
        
        RE: For Clarification - morricab 09:22:12 05/17/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by josh358 on May 16, 2012 at 15:10:49
        
        Josh, if you read my profile and my posts you know that I use a Behringer digital EQ in my system already know very well how in room curves should look to sound "right" and totally flat to 20Khz does not sound "right". A mild roll off in the highs above 8Khz sounds better most often. Actually an overall smooth downward tilt from the bass to the highs sounds the best most of the time. A totally flat in-room response is usually sounding too bright. The Maggie is also somewhat recessed in the upper mids/lower treble (i.e presence region) that is likely to make the sound less "alive" sounding. I would definitely not be surprised it the Apogee sounded better with these measurements.
        
        RE: For Clarification - josh358 11:47:48 05/17/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by morricab on May 17, 2012 at 09:22:12
        
        With two channel stereo you need maybe a 2-6 dB downtilt in your target curve for large ensemble works, particularly for performances recorded from too close, as almost all are. The exception would be spaced omni or Blumlein recordings, not common these days, they'll give you a Row A balance if flown a the front of the stage. Some speakers have this rolloff built in, others not. The IIIa's seem to have a mild downtilt in that measurement.
        
        Agree that a recess in the presence region will indeed make the sound more laid back, and also increase subjective depth. With most commercial recordings I find that welcome, since they tend to have a presence boost. But it's still a coloration.
        
        Since they have better power response than the dynamic tweeters used in mixing, true ribbon Maggies can sound too bright with commercial recordings. The IIIa's will likely sound too bright. They'll want some absorptive room treatment, particularly with commercial recordings, doubly so with studio pop.
        
        I just tried putting the Apogee curve into Foobar. It's merely an approximation, but it's enough to give you a sense of what you'll hear with this kind of curve. Try some acoustical bass, it's interesting to hear what happens subjectively even without any bass emphasis at 30 Hz, owing to the hollowing out from 100-300. Subjective highs are more effected by an-axis than power response, so this will tend to exaggerate the difference between the tweeters, and if the tweeters you use are rolled off it won't give you the subjective brightness of the Maggies. For that reason, I backed off on the high-end EQ and wouldn't in any case read too much about what happens in the top octave.
        
        RE: For Clarification - acroy 11:01:17 05/17/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by morricab on May 17, 2012 at 09:22:12
        
        I've run into this statement a few times - still not sure why it happens! Limitations in recording, playback equipment? It seems that most media is recorded in such a way as to sound 'good' on mediocre equipment, with a few 'good' recordings meant to sound 'good' on 'good' equipment. I guess it's just what we've grown up with and prefer.
        
        RE: For Clarification - josh358 19:18:20 05/17/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by acroy on May 17, 2012 at 11:01:17
        
        Pop recordings have the highs boosted so they sound good on dinky speakers. They're the worst in this regard.
        
        Several factors contribute to excessive highs in classical recordings: multimiking, close miking (few recordings are made in the audience and its been said that even audiophiles reject them), and forward-facing microphones that don't capture the ambient field. It also probably doesn't help that most dynamic speakers, including very good ones, have poor high frequency dispersion.
        
        Anyway, it isn't a limitation of the equipment. People who try their own recordings are often surprised to find that they're better than commercial releases, not just because of a more natural balance but because they aren't compressed.
        
        RE: For Clarification - JLindborg 16:53:21 05/16/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by josh358 on May 16, 2012 at 15:10:49
        
        "Try it, find a graphic equalizer app and dial in the room curve. "
        How do You do that? And with what sound generating speaker?
        Would be a pretty "beast" of a splendid reference speaker to be a marker of what Your room is reflecting!?
        Or am I out in the woods with that question?
        (Late and a bit tired...)
        
        (This thread has gotten a tad bit out of track.... hehehehe)
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        Edits: 05/16/12 05/16/12
        
        RE: For Clarification - josh358 17:46:26 05/16/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by JLindborg on May 16, 2012 at 16:53:21
        
        I thought of going into the vagaries of it, but figured I'd be here till midnight. I suppose you could establish a baseline is with a measurement mic or speakers for which you have measurements. You can then EQ them flat and use that as a baseline. Not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. I didn't even do that. I bought a BSR equalizer when I was a kid and had a pair of AR-11's. Fooling with it taught me what the frequency bands do, and it was easy enough to hear when it was right because there was lots of live music in the house at the time.
        
        Later, in the studio, I had opportunities to measure speakers with RTA's, play with 1/3-octave calibrated monitors, and fool with various kinds of EQ, but I think most of it was what I learned as a kid, from fooling with that BSR. A friend of mine had one too and he got better at it than I was, he could have rented himself out as a spectrum analyzer.
        
        There's a graphic EQ app in Foobar, but it isn't very good -- not enough resolution and there's a long delay after you move the faders before you hear the change. I'm sure there are better ones out there but I've never looked. If you find one, I'd be curious to know.
        
        "teenagers are the only ones on the planet" ... - andyr 16:19:58 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: For Clarification posted by jazzbeat on May 15, 2012 at 15:53:28
        
        who can hear to 20KHz.
        
        They may well be ... but that doesn't mean the rest of us can't hear the difference when we have ribbons that are said to have a -3dB point of 40KHz vs. tweeters which roll off much earlier. The reason being ... the roll-offs are not "brick walls" - they have an effect over (frequency) decades.
        
        Case in point: I have been trying to build a good phono stage since mid-2009, when I was given the circuit by a mate who said " Wow! This is the best phono stage I have ever heard ". Of course, with other people's recommendations, one never knows what they are comparing against ... but, as I had been wanting to get a phono stage that was better than the one which had been my mainstay for 6 or 7 years, I was intrigued enough to build it.
        
        When I listened to it, it sounded promising ... but when I measured its frequency response, I found it was severely rolled off, top and bottom (compared to the RIAA standard). So I embarked on a 2-year odyssey to improve it! :-))
        
        v1 was completed about this time last year and was judged to have a slightly rolled-off top end, compared to my phono stage and an Allnic 1500. IE. there was a lack of "top end air", compared to these two.
        
        A mate who suggested a slightly different circuit layout which he said would improve performance, simulated the circuit in pSpice ... and identified a particular cap which he said was causing a roll-off at 120KHz (ie. 120KHz was the upper -3dB frequency).
        
        In the subsequent rebuild (with a slightly different circuit layout), I was able to remove this cap - and, lo and behold - v3 has the more extended top end that I was looking for! :-))
        
        In other words, the people who have listened to both circuits have been able to hear the difference between a phono stage which "rolls off" at 120KHz, and another which doesn't. That's 120 Kilo hertz - not just 20KHz!
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - Emsquare 14:35:47 05/15/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 09:33:55
        
        I threw out my 10' pole because of threads like this. Or should I tape the two 5 footers together for one last go at it? Mmm, no ... let's not. I can hear the sucking of the vortex all the way here in Carolina.
        
        Edits: 05/15/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 17:16:41 05/15/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by Emsquare on May 15, 2012 at 14:35:47
        
        I may borrow those poles, and use them to vault out!
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - Emsquare 18:09:55 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 17:16:41
        
        I FedExed them earlier today... Who's your buddy?
        I burnt the eleven foot pole to fine ashes to preclude any and all temptations. This was after the great wire (debate?) of 2009. The ten footer I broke in half and froze the tape in a block of ice. I'm allowing for the possibility that I may have more sense in my later years. It's not looking hopefull.
        PS; The precept of the eleven foot pole was a delusional ides that I would be equiped for touching on the topics wiser men wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. I now know that there is a reason why the phrase came into being and is well known. Live & learn.
        
        Edits: 05/15/12
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - tyu 05:01:05 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JLindborg on May 15, 2012 at 00:35:35
        
        So you say
        
        A man in Your stature and respected position here on this forum should be aware of room and placement requirements for any given speaker.
        
        Is this base on the over 6k post or that HEs a( Music Industry Professional, Freelance].....Anyway i dont buy any of it...
        
        Funny thing that Magnepan would let any one guy that only has the MMg speak for them...When a lot of people here have the True ribbions... An the .7 have been out for years... I was in the Audio biz... Someone that i wonted to speak for me ...Would have to have seen an heard the Full line at lest....What dose this say about Magnepan....Gofig...Goodluck
        
        Wow! Seems like your Duettas could do with an aluminium frame (that doesn't warp)? :-)) nt - andyr 01:36:44 05/15/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JLindborg on May 15, 2012 at 00:35:35
        
        .
        
        RE: Wow! Seems like your Duettas could do with an aluminium frame (that doesn't warp)? :-)) nt - JLindborg 01:45:19 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow! Seems like your Duettas could do with an aluminium frame (that doesn't warp)? :-)) nt posted by andyr on May 15, 2012 at 01:36:44
        
        Hehe! Yeah.
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 23:59:57 05/14/12 (19)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 14, 2012 at 19:53:27
        
        "It makes no difference how expensive magnets are. What matters is whether they do the job. Wendell points out that it costs less to use a high power amplifier than it does to use neodynium magnets. Neodynium magnets are used only where there it's necessary to the design, e.g., in small planar speakers like the Neo-8's, or in planars that have to achieve very high SPL's. Otherwise, you'd be pouring money down the drain."
        Pouring my money(!) for a good and also superb sounding amp , not Magnepans money if they cared about.
        
        The thread started with @morricab, who mentioned how well the Apogee sounded, look where yout brought it.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 05:50:26 05/15/12 (18)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 14, 2012 at 23:59:57
        
        It costs more to use neodynium magnets than it does to use a bigger amp.
        For those who want a high efficiency planar, Graz's big Apogees use neodynium, as do the BG's and Wisdoms. But they are very expensive.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 14:56:58 05/15/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 05:50:26
        
        Josh, the Scintilla I heard did not have new magnets. It had the original ceramic magnets and the low(ish) sensitivity.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 19:11:27 05/15/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 15, 2012 at 14:56:58
        
        I read somewhere that magnets were improving as the different models came out, so they became progressively more efficient. But the information is vague. In particular, they had to play some interesting tricks to get a strong, reasonably uniform field on the midrange ribbons. The guys on the DIY forum have neo magnets and finite element analysis software and can do some pretty amazing things, albeit at a retail cost in the thousands for the magnets.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 03:31:38 05/16/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 19:11:27
        
        Seeing as the Scintilla was the second Apogee design I would say that Nd magnets were not part of the scene at that time.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 05:58:48 05/15/12 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 05:50:26
        
        You always talk about costs, it is the fair value of material used in the product , which is important.
        And if you always want to use the cheapest material available to get the "cheapest" product... then be it.
        We are talking about what is good and what can be done, not what costs more.. Thats why the world is driven by economists not inovators.. sad but true
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 06:56:55 05/15/12 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 15, 2012 at 05:58:48
        
        I'm not sure what you mean by fair value. The rule in consumer electronics manufacturing is that retail costs are 4-5 times parts and labor costs. So if you spend an extra $1000 on neodynium, you have to charge $4000 or $5000 more for your speakers.
        
        Of course, there are manufacturers that make cost-no-object speakers. Like the Wisdoms in the other thread, they use neodynium magnets and achieve 100 dB sensitivity and 130 dB SPL's at the listener's seat in a large room. That's impressive and I admire it. But a pair of Wisdoms with the Wisdom subs will set you back $100,000. Which is to say I may admire it, but I can't afford it.
        
        Magnepan has never gone after that market. They see themselves as a value speaker company that uses innovative technology to make high end sound available at an affordable price. The question they set themselves isn't "how can we do this" but rather "how can we do this in a cost-effective way." It's a different kind of challenge, though maybe not all that different from what we do when we think about how to best improve our systems on a limited budget?
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 07:30:53 05/15/12 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 06:56:55
        
        I get it, this should be named as Magnepan and not Planar speaker asylum and with your word being last.
        
        I can calculate for myself very well(own bussines for 20 years) and if they sell so many speakers as thay do, they could do many improvements and with no price raise!! But the only reason is not that they can't, the only reason is they simply don't want to!!! So explain this to the customer or write like a small child: Mr. Wendell said it is not....
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 09:11:51 05/15/12 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 15, 2012 at 07:30:53
        
        Well, then, I suggest you call them and apply for a job, because I'm sure they'd be delighted to learn how they can make multiple improvements without raising the cost.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 09:30:26 05/15/12 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 09:11:51
        
        And I know why Magnepan is doing it the way they are, but this is their policy and I respect it.
        But I am pretty shure they would take me first instead of you. Maybe I would have only one good suggestion out of 100, you would only have 100 crawls into their ..s
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 10:32:55 05/15/12 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 15, 2012 at 09:30:26
        
        Reminds me of the way I teased my little brothers when I was a kid.
        
        "I can fly across the room!" I'd say.
        
        "No you can't!"
        
        "Yes I can!"
        
        "Prove it!"
        
        "No."
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 10:35:08 05/15/12 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 10:32:55
        
        Are you talking about crawling into Magnepan ass??
        Yes josh, you shure can!
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JBen 11:03:19 05/15/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 15, 2012 at 10:35:08
        
        Darn, being a bit too busy, I stayed away form the forum for a few days. Then I decide to check in while I have time for a Subway sandwich and I find this. I'll have to read the rest of the thread this evening but I can tell you this right now.
        
        Bernie, this is going too far.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - old guy 42 11:45:35 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JBen on May 15, 2012 at 11:03:19
        
        Hi. J
        
        The few, spoil it for the many.
        
        Take care....old guy
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JLindborg 11:23:22 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JBen on May 15, 2012 at 11:03:19
        
        A tad bit over the edge.... hehehehe
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 10:50:57 05/15/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 15, 2012 at 10:35:08
        
        Yes, Berni, you're right, secretly I think of Magnepan as the devil incarnate. If it were up to me, they'd be doing everything differently, and I know that because, well, I've never manufactured a speaker in my life but I just know. Truth is, they're just a bunch of greedy one percenters, why, the janitors there own villas where they go to laugh at all the credulous fools who bought their wretched-sounding speakers for ten times what they're worth. Made in America? Pfah. The truth is that their speakers are made by starving child slaves in Pakistan out of the entrails of threatened species from the shrinking jungles of Borneo. I won't even go into the coven, and the blood-stained altar in the listening room.
        
        But please, don't post this -- it's just a personal email between you and me. If it ever got out, they'd stop sending me the Brazilian call girls, and the plentiful supply of crack cocaine.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 11:01:31 05/15/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 10:50:57
        
        Sorry, but I was talking about you not Magnepan and it is a thread for great sounding Apogees not for addicts.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 11:23:20 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 15, 2012 at 11:01:31
        
        Dude, at this point I doubt anybody would care if you balanced a cake on your snout. You're always so grouchy about something or other that you could apply for a job as a character in a Doctor Seuss book. And, you know, at some point, whatever it is you happen to be grouching about fades away, and it becomes apparent that you're just a vessel for spite. Which, ultimately, isn't all that interesting, for those of us who are here to discuss planar speakers, anyway. So if you have something to say on the topic of planar speakers, I suggest you do so. But if your sole purpose is demonstrating how evil I am, I suggest you start a "Josh358 Is Evil" forum and spare us the grief.
        
        Here, I'll help you: Josh358 is eviler than Hitler, Pol Pot, and Ghenghis Khan rolled into one.
        
        Can we talk about something interesting now?
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - berni 09:22:44 05/15/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by josh358 on May 15, 2012 at 09:11:51
        
        You are getting pathetic.
        I didn't say I will do things that don't cost nothing, I said in the price asked I could still make improvements that would cost a bit and this could be a real benefit for the customer.
        
        For example, the new 20.7 has 1st order XO, which means less material used, less binding post, no XO box(stainless box!), no stainless support for XO, some connectors less, one carton box less for packaging, less transport cost due to less weight, but still price increase? Everything else is the same if we calculate material.
        Don't get me wrong , I also love my Magnepan 20.1 , but I'm objective and not married with them.
        So?
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 10:17:15 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by berni on May 15, 2012 at 09:22:44
        
        Lots of reasons that could be so. Quasi ribbon drivers cost more to manufacture, and AFAIK the 20.7 now has quasi ribbon woofers (anyone know for sure?). The new crossover components, while fewer, are of better quality. And costs change with time, e.g., with inflation, or changing market conditions vs. fixed overhead.
        
        Or maybe Mark Winey just has to have a few more Greek islands.
        
        Actually, Mark doesn't even own his company's top-of-the-line model. Mark was very open about their cost structure -- so surprisingly open in fact that Wendell asked me not to repeat the figures. Of course, I'll respect that, but I do wish everyone could have that discussion with Mark, because it would help them fathom the economics of running a consumer electronics operation. A lot of people don't know how cost sensitive consumer electronics manufacturing is. Every $1 part, every minute of labor affects the selling price.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - tyu 07:20:06 05/14/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 14, 2012 at 01:43:33
        
        So you say
        
        Josh, you are speaking about things you don't really know about. You obviously have only very limited experience with Apogees or planars other than Maggies
        
        ....He is THE Industry Professional ...He Speaks for magnepan ...He dose not have to Know anything about anything....you should no this...Goodluck
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - Roger Gustavsson 02:35:32 05/14/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 14, 2012 at 01:43:33
        
        The Magnepan's resonant behaviour is more complex than you think. The tension is varied from top to bottom, the diaphragm are supported at various points, spreading the resonancies further. The bass panels of the Tympanies are spread from 40 Hz and upwards. The Apogee use to have the lowest at 30 Hz and up to 45 Hz (Caliper is tuned slightly higher), the tension of the diaphragm is about the same from top to bottom, the width makes the difference. To my ears the Apogee Caliper used to have a bit of a one note bass, Duetta's less and the Diva not at all. Maybe it had to do with what kind of amplification was used but most of the damping should come from the airload of such a large driver, or? Caliper and Duetta were rolled of at higher frequencies. The Caliper was an interesting speaker as it offered an almost fullrange frequency response in a small package. I never really liked the sound of the smaller Magnepan. I think we should compare models within its price categories. Did Scintilla compare to Tympani IVa in its day?
        
        Roger Gustavsson
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 15:09:29 05/15/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by Roger Gustavsson on May 14, 2012 at 02:35:32
        
        From the listening to Apogees I have done it was usually very high damping factor amps that produced the most one note effect.
        
        This I think had to do with stopping the panel too abruptly when the airload would work fine for all but the resaonance. With the rest overdamped then the resonance would kind of stick out like a sore thumb.
        
        By most accounts the Tympanis had good bass and powerful lower mids but were not the most resonsive in the upper mids and highs, sounding somewhat veiled and needing to be played loud to come "alive". The Scintillas I heard recently sounded extremely transparent (as have original ones I heard in the past) and good at moderate levels with true smooth bass.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - josh358 18:28:05 05/15/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 15, 2012 at 15:09:29
        
        The all-wire Tympanis are veiled in the upper mids and highs, the true ribbon Tympanis are veiled only in the mids, which is why I'm planning to put Neo-8's in my IVa's.
RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - Lew 10:37:33 05/07/12 (7)
With reference to the input impedance of the Scintilla, as noted by jsm below, and also to the relative inefficiency of the Apogee speakers, I wonder how the Lamm amplifier (which has an ~1-ohm output Z) can even begin to cope with that load. I'm just saying'...
- RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 02:45:08 05/08/12 (5)
  Well Lew a couple of points: The Lamms have the ability adjust for lower impedances. THey have a switch that I believe adjusts the power supply so that when you select the low impedance mode it lowers the power supply voltage and increases the available current. What the amp delivers into 1 ohm is I imagine substantially more than 110 Watts but of course not all of it would be Class A then.
  
  The other important point is about sensitivity. The normal sensitivity rating for this speaker is referenced to the typcial 8 ohms. As it is clearly not an 8 ohm speaker the sub 80db sensitivity is really mid 80s db for 1 ohm. So, assuming the amp can supply the current then it will play quite loudly with 100 watts of power. My guess is that we never pushed beyond 30 watts or so in our listening, which is enough to still get quite loud.
  
  My friend of course checked with Lamm about the suitability of driving 1 ohm before purchasing the amps.
  - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - Lew 23:49:11 05/08/12 (4)
    Sounds like the Scintillas are the 1-ohm version. (I read that there was a 4-ohm version, as well, for a brief time.) This makes it all the more remarkable that the combination of the Lamm ML1.1 and the Scintilla works as well as you say. (I certainly don't doubt your word that the combination sounds great.) However, and with all due respect, the explanations you give (power supply switch, etc) just don't cut the mustard. The amps were measured either by Lamm or by one of the magazines to have an output impedance of about 1 ohm. This is a product mostly of the plate resistance of the output tubes and the turns ratio of the output transformers; the power supply could be an source of infinite current, and it would make no difference, because the current available at the amplifier output can be no more than what the 6C33Cs can tolerate at max dissipation (about 1-2 amps per tube, briefly) also in combination with the output transformer effect. The speaker has a nominal input impedance of 1 ohm. This is not a recipe for audio happiness, but the real world results show that numbers do not tell the whole story, I guess.
    
    I love my Silvaweld SWH550 phono stage that you were kind enough to recommend. So thanks for that.
    - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - A.Wayne 10:10:39 02/17/13 (0)
      The Lamm's are an hybrid , SS output ...
      
      "The M1.1 is neither overly large nor too petite; rather, it's...well-proportioned—properly sized for function. They run hot, as any design with a class-A output stage will do, but not too hot. They are hefty, but, at 64.5 lbs each, aren't excessively so. The M1.1s are conservatively rated at 100W into 8 and 4 ohms in pure class-A. Maximum output into either load hovers near the 140W mark. The amps will pop 200W into 2 ohms, and 300 big ones into 1 ohm. The generously illustrated, very complete, and technical manual calmly states, "The M1.1 is capable of driving impedances below 1 ohm." I believe it." -Stereophile
    - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 01:08:47 05/09/12 (2)
      AHHH I see the problem you are having Lew, the amp in question is NOT the ML1.1 it is the M1.1. Big difference. The ML1.1 is a 90 watt Push pull tube amp with the 6C33C output tube. You are right it would not drive the Scintilla, at least not to a significant volume level.
      
      The amp I am referring to is one of Lamm's hybrid amps, which are solid state on the output and running in Class A. It gives 110 Watts into either 8 or 4 ohms (depending on the power supply bias switch) and can most certainly drive 1 ohm without issue. Blame Lamm for having two very different amps with nearly the same name.
      
      I think with the right speaker the ML1.1 (tubed) will sound better than the M1.1 (hybrid) but for a Scintilla the later is really the only choice.
      
      As to the Silvaweld phonostage. What can I say, they are great. I have the SWH-650, which is a single ended version of yours. Mine also has the powersupply inboard but it is all tube (rectified, regulated etc.). As far as I know the 650 was never a full production item...mine might even be one-of-a-kind. Yours has a volume control as well I think and mine does not. Do you run it direct into your amp? If not, what are you using for a preamp? I would recommend the Silvaweld SWC-1000. After hearing one again last weekend I seriously regret selling mine. I will never sell the phonostage...I simply haven't heard better. I would like to hear the big Allnic audio sometime though to see if Mr. Park has somehow improved on the Silvaweld gear. Somehow I don't think he has.
      
      I was privileged to hear the ultimate Silvaweld preamp a couple of times. It is called the Aphrodite and is bigger than a lot of amplifiers! What a machine and what a power supply (makes even the substantial power supply in the SWC-1000 look puny). Same simple one tube circuit with a tube current sournce. Bigger output transformers. Massive machined aluminum case. About a dozen tubes in the power supply and huge banks of caps. A couple of big chokes as well. Exotic output tube (WE 437A but can be substituted with the Russian 6c45Pi). Btw, the SWC-1000 uses the WE 417A, great sounding tube when used properly.
      - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - Lew 13:51:31 05/09/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by morricab on May 09, 2012 at 01:08:47
        
        In the words of the late, great Gilda Radnor, as "Emily Latella" on SNL, "Never mind."
        Yes, I thought you were talking about the all-tube Lamm product.
        
        The Silvaweld phono and linestages are very different from the Allnic ones in many ways, except his taste in chassis design and build quality (high) seems not to have changed. As you know, there are no transformers in the signal path of the Silvaweld products, whereas the Allnics depend to a great extent on transformers everywhere you look. Further, the Silvaweld phono stages use RC networks for RIAA, where the Allnics famously use LCR equalization. This suggests to me that either Mr Park has changed his mind in very basic ways about good design or that he is working with others. My unit does not even use a SUT for LOMC gain; it seems to use a JFET which then drives the first tube in the MM phono section. (I have only used it for MM and MI high-ish output cartridges, so have not tried the MC inputs.) The Silvaweld is plugged into a hi-level input on my Atma-sphere MP1. I use the MP1 phono section for LOMCs cartridges. When you say the 650 is "single-ended", I am not sure what you mean, because my 550 is also single-ended, i.e., not balanced topology. The 550 has outboard PS containing power transformer, tube rectifier, inductor, capacitors. On the main chassis, we have filament supply rectification and regulation, and current and voltage regulators for the high voltage supply, duplicated for each channel.
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - morricab 00:40:37 05/10/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by Lew on May 09, 2012 at 13:51:31
        
        Oh, I thought that the 550 was fully balanced. I think then my 650 is very similar to your 550. Mine also has a J-fet for the MC input. I have a normal output MM that still seems to prefer the MC input. The MM just sounds weak by comparison. The MC always sounds best despite not being all tube.
        
        You are right about the phonostage not having any transformers but the SWC-1000 has the famous amorphous core high nickel content output transformers. The reference product, Aphrodite also uses output transformers. I have never seen the Aphrodite phonostage (apparently only one or two were ever built) so I don't know if it was transformer coupled.
        
        I know that Silvaweld was using interstage transformers on their top end 300B amps that at least from the can, look the same as the output transformers in the SWC-1000. He would use a 417A to a transformer to drive parallel 300Bs. Very expensive amps. Never heard them though only saw them on the shelf.
        
        I did get to hear the Silvaweld OTL that has about 100 6c19 power tubes. That sounded quite good, very dynamic and punchy. Of course you may remember that I used to own the Silvaweld OTL reference monoblocks with 4 x 6c33c tubes per monoblock. Those sounded great but got so hot that a long listening session raised the room T by several degrees C. So for about a year I had an all Silvaweld chain: SWH-650, SWC-1000, OTL reference. That sounded darn good.
        
        Then I got a KR Audio VA350 and found for the first time a transformer coupled tube (hybrid) amp that sounded as good as the OTLs. It was also integrated so I sold the linestage as well (regretably). It cut the heat by a dramatic amount, ok the power as well (100 vs. 30) but that didn't seem to make much of a difference as it shaved about 3db off my peak playing level.
        
        BTW, what are you using for digital? I would seriously recommend that you try the Monarchy Audio M24 or NM24 tube DACs. I have the original M24, which is using 20 bit BB PCM-63PK and a good friend of mine has the NM24, which is using the 24 bit BB PCM1704K. He bought it on my advice and he agrees with me now that it is the closest to analog he has heard from a DAC. Smooth, detailed, dynamic as hell and just slightly warm. When you consider that my friend considers this $1000 DAC good enough to play in his Apogee Grand (yes the big ones) system along with mega buck amps, I think that says a lot.
- Ditto. Only heard of Scintillas happy with big Krell Class A amps. /nt\ - Opus 104 16:06:20 05/07/12 (0)
  Opus 104
RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - jsm71 08:05:47 05/07/12 (8)
Great that they sound as you describe. Alarming that at 1 ohm load levels these redefine the term needy when it comes to amps. I guess it is all worth it in the end if the sound is right.
- RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JLindborg 11:42:10 02/16/13 (7)
  jsm71 wrote: "Great that they sound as you describe. Alarming that at 1 ohm load levels these redefine the term needy when it comes to amps. I guess it is all worth it in the end if the sound is right."
  
  Old topic but...
  
  Yes, it is worth it.
  I got hold of Carvers Sunfire 300x2 power amp some weeks ago and WOW!
  I will copy and paste what I wrote on the Carver site...
  
  The users manual clearly states that the Sunfire 300 are fully capable of driving Scintillas after being modified by the Sunfire Corporation free of charge. (Continuous High Power Operation Below One Ohm)
  
  Apart from that I actually hocked up the speakers with the amp and DAMN!!!! And Jesus Christ!!!
  What a beast!!!
  My GOD did it perform!!!
  And what control of the bass membrane!
  And the absolute effortless dynamics with scary detailing!!!
  I am in HEAVEN!!!
  
  I have NO clue what so ever if this amp got modified before but i measured and calculated that I was putting out 1200 watt peaks into 1 Ohm. And this was LOUD! And apart from being loud it was clear and dynamic.
  The only reason I didn't push it further was that the light in the room was clearly flickering along with the peaks and I didn't want to blow the fuse in the small house I have my equipment in.
  
  The "funny" (read scary) thing was that I started to note a smell like some kind of wood on fire.... was some cabling inside the wall starting to give in???
  Anyway I turned down the volume and touched the amp to check the temp. It was just barely warm.
  
  For now, I don't feel the need of any modification.
  
  So anyway, I am extremely pleased with the performance and the overall sound of the amp!
  Why the heck did Carver quit/stop this line of amps???
  
  Cheers!
  
  The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
  - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - tyuu 13:49:34 02/16/13 (6)
    You got lov this....
    Part of the Mod for the Apogees in the SunFire Amps was to go from the nom.300 amps power supply...two 10kmf 200v caps... two 20kmf 200v caps..an i think go with two bridg rectfire....300 an 600 only have one....That was it!
    Funny all the other Big amps have 100kmf caps for ea. rale....thay say it for good bass.....right
    SunFire 600...best bass ever out of any sand amp....small caps 600 come with two 20kmf 200v... oh boy.. ..think if you drop a pr of 60mf pr rail... Bob said ...Not Needed...small caps sound better an give all the base you need....But i dont like to speak for others..... Thanks for your input...good luck
    - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JLindborg 10:43:20 02/17/13 (2)
      tyuu wrote:
      "Thay a lot of info out there on sunfire/LiteStar....Never found a bad
      revue... I have read....Bob was Sad that more people did not pickup on how
      great these SunFire Amps sound....An Well drive Any Speaker Made!
      But like some of Bobs TFM amps were Less than one would have liket...I sold
      these TFM amps in the 80-90s...When these Amps were ask to putout 200
      watts...youed be lucky to get 20 watts...there littel meters lites would go
      dim an flash to the output...not good for sales...
      But it all changed with The LiteStar...then on to the SunFire...ToDay Most
      any one well be Hardpress to find a better sounding Amps!
      Have Fun ....Good luck"
      
      I totally agree with You tyuu.
      The Sunfire amps are pure magic. Extremely underrated by just the fact that it brings one of the worlds hardest speakers to life. The Apogee Scintilla.
      
      I just love it, both for the power and the explicit sound.
      
      Cheers!
      
      The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
      - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - GFL 07:17:25 02/23/13 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JLindborg on February 17, 2013 at 10:43:20
        
        Can any other owners add any info on these Sunfire amps an how well thay drive Magnepans,or any other planers?
        Thanks
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JLindborg 07:51:24 02/23/13 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by GFL on February 23, 2013 at 07:17:25
        
        Yes I would like to hear that too.
        Even if I drove one of the worlds toughest speakers with it, it would be interesting.
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
    - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - JLindborg 13:58:37 02/16/13 (2)
      Interesting!
      
      Thanks tyuu!
      PS. If You have any other nice info on those amps feel free to mail me, will You!?
      
      Cheers!
      
      The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
      - RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - A.Wayne 11:09:30 02/17/13 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by JLindborg on February 16, 2013 at 13:58:37
        
        Tyu,
        
        Will the sunfire 600 drive 1 ohm ..or best with the 300 ...?
        
        RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday - tyuuu 09:33:40 02/19/13 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Heard a reference level planar speaker last Saturday posted by A.Wayne on February 17, 2013 at 11:09:30
        
        600 just have more outputs looks lke that the one...........goodluck

Post a Followup:

FAQ

Post a Message!

Forgot Password?

Moniker (Username):
Password (Optional):
	Remember my Moniker & Password (What's this?) Eat Me
E-Mail (Optional):
Subject:

Message:	(Posts are subject to Content Rules)

Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:
Optional Image URL:
Upload Image:
E-mail Replies:	Automagically notify you when someone responds.

To view your new posting or follow-up, click on the RELOAD or REFRESH button on your browser.

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

DIY Hifi Supply

[ DIY HiFi Forum ]