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Maggie madness

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As I was reading through the Maggies and high-end speakers discussion, I suddenly realized the utterly ridiculous situation I find myself in: here I am, comparing a pair of Maggies (MG-I IMP), which I bought for $450, with state-of-the-art speakers, such as Focal Maestro Utopia III, which retail for $50,000!

Not only that, but I'm finding my Maggies to be a more desirable option. So we're talking 1:100 price point disadvantage. Don't you find this situation super ape-shit crazy? Something just doesn't add up here...

Follow Ups:

amazing when - Green Lantern 08:53:26 03/23/12 (2)
at the height of the MG1.6's popularity MANY a heated discussions took place around here regarding the 1.6's ability to go shoulder to shoulder with speakers costing thousands, even tens of thousands more..

The conversation would typically bottle neck down to "ok well I had the MG1.6s but my Wilson Watts/Puppies goes way deeper!", or "I used to have the MG1.6's but my $15,000 speaker doesnt have the constraining sweet spot"..

At which time the emergency hand brake is pulled to a screetching stop and the conversationist are then reminded: "gentlemen, your points are well taken, but keep in mind we're talking about a speaker when introduced cost $1400!

Needless to say the threads typically and immediately were abandonded! lol great times, even greater speaker-

may the bridges I burn light the way....
- (Open in New Window)
- And... - slapshot 19:28:55 03/23/12 (0)
  everyone on this particular board knows this, but what is the ratio to which coned speakers outsell planar speakers? Maggies certainly won't work in certain listening environments, or driven by substandard electronics, but certainly outperform cone speakers that cost many times more.
- RE: amazing when - josh358 18:30:55 03/23/12 (0)
  That puts it well. The fact that you can compare the 1.6 to speakers in that price range in the first place is nothing less than amazing.
Agree - slapshot 18:34:18 03/22/12 (1)
I feel the same way...but, to get the best out of Maggies, they will cost you in terms of the upstream components. My 1.6s didn't cost me too much, but the changes in amp and preamp were substantial. Still, a huge bargain compared to expensive box speakers, which often still don't compete with the maggie sound (particularly if you like the maggie sound).
- RE: Agree - magiccarpetride 09:51:46 03/23/12 (0)
  I feel the same way...but, to get the best out of Maggies, they will cost you in terms of the upstream components. My 1.6s didn't cost me too much, but the changes in amp and preamp were substantial.
  
  True, my preamp/amp combo cost me almost five times the price of Maggies. But I couldn't live with lesser amplification -- I've tried driving my Maggies with cheaper amps, sounded heartbreakingly terrible. They seem finicky in that they do need to work with top class amps.
Funny you should mention that.... - gadio4533 17:43:21 03/22/12 (1)
I was at APOXNIA last weekend and went through a similar situation. I heard several rooms with equipment I was drooling over (MBL and Legacy especially). As I listened I was drawn in and completely mezmerised. I would have written the check then and there (fill in the amount based on the model, somewhere between $11k and $70K). I would take the MBL reference 101s (or in a a pinch the 126s) without even blinking (if I could do it without taking a second mortgage).

To preserve my marriage I refrained that day thinking I could go back Sunday and get a deal before they packed up and left. Low and behold I got back home sat in the sweet spot and proceeded to drift through various segments of my music collection. The light came on at some point and I realized I am not missing a damn thing. Nothing I heard was 10-60 K better than what i am hearing now.....crisis averted.
I still want the MBLs though..........
- RE: Funny you should mention that.... - BigguyinATL 20:17:04 03/22/12 (0)
  I have the same problem with Porsche 911. Emotion and Want=Buy Buy Buy.
  
  Common sense says wait wait wait.
  Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
RE: Maggie madness - josh358 13:59:36 03/22/12 (29)
Weird, isn't it? Part of it I think is that once you reach a certain price point, you have to spend an awful lot to make incremental improvements in sound quality. But I think we have to give a lot of credit to Magnepan here, because having asked Wendell about various options, I've learned that they never think about how to make a speaker better, they always think about how they can make it better *economically.* That relentless focus on value means that they work towards solutions that real people can afford, and avoid "everything but the kitchen sink" improvements that would drive the price up without offering much by way of audible improvement. For example, he points out that using neodynium magnets to improve the efficiency would end up costing the customer more than a bigger amp would.
- RE: Maggie madness - berni 01:22:05 03/27/12 (8)
  That relentless focus on value means that they work towards solutions that real people can afford, and avoid "everything but the kitchen sink" improvements that would drive the price up without offering much by way of audible improvement. For example, he points out that using neodynium magnets to improve the efficiency would end up costing the customer more than a bigger amp would.
  @josh
  This is not a good example.. if I think it over it is quite a stupid one.
  Why not using something which we already now and gives good results? Neodynium doesn't cost as NASA materials, if for 3.6 the cost would raise for about 200$ at most(price for on the market, not for a large consumer!!), I still think this is way better than buying a large amp.
  To maintaing the overal balance in sound Magnepan would need only average to small sized magnets(low price), because using to strong magnets on highs and mids would ruin the coherent sound.The low end would not catch up, because it would reach it limits(mylar, resonances, drum effect..).
  If all were thinking like that we would be still drive around with steam engines, or car diagonal car tires instead of radials..
  - RE: Maggie madness - josh358 06:15:27 03/27/12 (7)
    Hi Berni,
    Neodynium is much more expensive than you think. The Chinese have cornered the rare earth mines -- first they cut their prices and drove everyone out of business, then they slapped export licenses on to limit the amount exported and force neodynium-dependent businesses to move their factories to China. The strategy worked, thanks to the unforgivable wimpiness of the industrialized countries, which should have slapped on retaliatory tariffs the moment the Chinese did that.
    Also remember that while a manufacturer buys components wholesale, anything you add to a consumer electronics item is marked up by the time the finished product is sold. The general rule of thumb is that $1 worth of parts will add $5 to the selling price.
    BTW, it is possible to use neodynium for a smaller tweeter, where it's most beneficial, and ceramic for the woofers. Wisdom Audio does that in some of their architectural speakers.
    
    Edits: 03/27/12
    - RE: Maggie madness - berni 06:42:08 03/27/12 (6)
      I know about the China problem, but fact is that neodymium is better and not as expensive you would like to point out.
      look here:
      http://www.gaussboys.com/magnets/blocks/
      I have a small bussines myself for over 20 years and I have never heard of this 1:5 rule.
      Ok, it is normal to invest first and earn later, but with a large order you get a much better price as listed.
      So with your rule a 3.6 is worth about 500$+ 500$ man labour,other cost multiplied by 5( MG earnings?).
      The rubber magnets used by MG, you can get for 0,000$ :)
      Give me one reason except greater earnings for MG , why not using this neodymium magnets? Don't be so conservative.
      - RE: Maggie madness - josh358 08:17:39 03/27/12 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by berni on March 27, 2012 at 06:42:08
        
        Those are tiny magnets and you need a lot of them in a Maggie. I've never bothered to figure out how much it would cost to put them in planar, but the guys who build neodynium line source ribbons the DIY forum talk about spending $1000 on the magnets for a tweeter ribbon and $3000 for a midrange ribbon.
        
        If you do want a high eff planar, Graz uses neodynium on his new Apogees, but they cost a fortune.
        
        As I said, OEM cost would presumably be less, but the selling price of consumer electronics is extremely sensitive to parts cost. Whether you've heard of it or not, the 4x - 5x parts cost (not 1.5 x) rule of thumb is widely used in electronics manufacturing.
        
        But mostly, if Magnepan could make a 95 dB efficient speaker and sell it for a reasonable price, don't you think they would? This explanation is theirs, not mine, and I have no reason to doubt it. They do use neodynium magnets when they're necessary for engineering reasons, just as other companies do (typically when they're making small planar or ribbon drivers that have to have high output in a small size, or to improve the performance of push-pull tweeters by minimizing the magnet coverage on the front).
        
        Everyone always seems to think they should just use heftier feet/heavier frames/fancier wire/glitzier binding posts/more exotic fuses, etc. Well, they could do that, but then Maggies would end up priced like Apogees, rather than Magnepans -- or higher, since I understand that one of the reasons Apogee went out of business is that their products were too expensive to manufacture.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - berni 09:07:15 03/27/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 27, 2012 at 08:17:39
        
        Yes, those were tiny magnets,but the size doesn't matter, it is the power they have in comparison with normal ones.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - berni 08:48:25 03/27/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 27, 2012 at 08:17:39
        
        I wrote 1:5 not 1,5.
        Using top material of course would only make sense for the 3.7 or 20.7, I never said that building a MMG with better material would bring something.
        But every company has his flagship and when there is a will there is a way, believe me on that.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 09:41:02 03/27/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by berni on March 27, 2012 at 08:48:25
        
        I don't think it would improve the sound quality of the 20.7, though. Just the efficiency. And I know from talking to Wendell that he's as concerned with value in their top-of-the-line speaker as he is in the MMG's. He very much doesn't want the company to lose its value image and become just another manufacturer of Veblen-priced luxury goods, a category that already has lots of good speaker companies in it. This despite the fact that the luxury market is doing quite well right now, since the middle class is stretched by the recession but the rich and particularly super-rich have been doing better than ever.
        
        However, as Jonathan Valin pointed out the other day in his blog, a lot of people are on their case to do a new Tympani. Everyone has fond memories of that amazing midbass. And since they were formerly a part of their line, I don't think it would harm their reputation as a value manufacturer.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - berni 10:01:23 03/27/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 27, 2012 at 09:41:02
        
        I disagree with you totally. Building a MG is not as cost efective as you would like to podt out. There is a fairly room for improvement at Magnepan and enough room in the price to achieve it especially with the 20.7. Dont say I am wrong , because if you do, you could be the lawyer or PR at Magnepan. :))
        Having a new speaker build will not cost anything?
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 18:57:08 03/27/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by berni on March 27, 2012 at 10:01:23
        
        Anything can be improved, which is why we see new models. I'm not sure exactly *how* you'd improve these speakers at their price points, but I'm sure we'll be seeing .8 versions a few years down the line. Not that I don't run ideas past Wendell. But they're purely speculative "Hey, what about this idea?" stuff, which I'm sure he hears from everybody and his mother. I'm often short basic engineering information, e.g., dimensions, crossover points, etc., and they know more about planars than I do, and the costs and practicalities of their manufacturing operation. They also have a specific corporate and marketing philosophy, and they have to take sales potential and customer preferences into account. There are a lot of things that audiophiles just won't go for, e.g., I've noticed that you can't get audiophiles with space limitations interested in the on-walls, even though they apparently compare favorably to the floor standers. I guess people have them classified mentally as home theater speakers.
- RE: Maggie madness - magiccarpetride 09:48:12 03/23/12 (19)
  For example, he points out that using neodynium magnets to improve the efficiency would end up costing the customer more than a bigger amp would.
  
  Boy, am I ever glad he's biased that way! I think he hit the sweet spot with his line of products and the philosophy and the strategy behind it. Affordable barrier to entry (pretty much anyone can afford $600 for MMGs), after which you stand to gain big improvements by doing rounds of upgrades. After which you can join the vibrant community and make extra rounds of improvement by tweaking the speakers -- stands, RF chokes, upgrade XO, razor them, heck, even gunn them!
  
  Beautiful, well executed strategy. The only thing missing is dispersing the abrasive mythology constructed about Maggies which claims that these speakers cannot give sufficient dynamics in sound, as well as the allegedly weak bass. Both of which I could not, for the life of me, get convinced of buying into. I was doing a lot of comparisons between the top shelf dynamic speakers and my Maggies, and couldn't hear much difference (if any) between the ability of these speakers to deliver the slam and the punch and how my Maggies deal with dynamics (slam, punch, deep pumping bass).
  - RE: Maggie madness - josh358 18:12:59 03/23/12 (18)
    I know that this is a frustration to Wendell, e.g., the fact that some people say Maggies are no more dynamic than stats. Of course, it depends on the size of the panels, but the figure I've seen is that planars can produce 10 times the output per unit area than electrostatics, which are limited by practical and theoretical constraints on voltage. So to get high output from stats, you either need immense panels like the Sound Labs, or limited bass response.
    Here are measurements showing the MMG's doing 110 dB on peaks, at the listening position:
    http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=mug&n=164807
    So even the MMG's are in the lower end of dynamic territory, though they do start to sound veiled and intermodulate when you push them that hard. And at the other extreme of Maggie size, Satie recently clocked his IV's at 120 dB, C weighted, with a Radio Shack meter -- that's typically about 130 dB on true peaks.
    That's not to say that the biggest dynamics can't have more bass extension or play louder. They can, particularly horns and big studio monitors. People who are into pedal notes or dinosaurs or more dynamics may want a sub (my Tympanis used to bottom on the cannon shots on the Telarc 1812). But rumors of limitations on the dynamics or bass of planars I think have to do either with people going by the smaller models, or hearing them with smaller amps. (Or, as a friend said of my 1-D's back in the day, "Hey, Maggies with bass!")
    
    Edits: 03/23/12
    - RE: Maggie madness - Satie 03:27:19 03/24/12 (15)
      I think that Wendell has to instruct his dealers in setup and amp matching. Most amps you would expect to match in price to the maggies grow faint as they are carried to the maggies for the demo. Particularly sensitive are receivers, that often mistake a maggie for a short.
      
      The limp amp demo of the maggie will inevitably bring people to the conclusion that the speakers just don't have bass, though the amp is to blame.
      
      Things should be better these days with powerful class D amps at reasonable prices, but there is still the question of how to get the dealers to demo maggies with amps that have enough power. The guy with the receiver looking at his first maggie is not goint to think in the right terms to make a happy sale of serious amp and maggie as the amp will cost more than the speaker unless it is a class D Rotel - which would cost as much as the speaker.
      
      The idea that power is cheap is fine so long as the dealers are aware and magnepan has realistic recomendations for power range. Which they don't. I don't think I would demo any maggy with a 50 watt amp unless I knew for certain that I have a mezzo piano linstener. For most anyone else, even a small maggie will be happier with a 200 watter.
      
      Just think of JV's recent review of the 20.7 where it was still underpowered despite JV using the moste powerful amp he had on hand. The dealers would have the same problem.
      - RE: Maggie madness - magiccarpetride 11:16:25 03/26/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 24, 2012 at 03:27:19
        
        I'm not convinced that sheer wattage is necessarily the way to go. I'm driving my Maggies with a 40 watt amp, but because this amp was well built, with extra care toward minimizing RF interferences, it sounds beautiful with Maggies. This amp somehow knows how to drive those behemoths. I've tried replacing it with beefy 200 watts amps, but they sounded awful in comparison.
        
        I'm convinced one needs very high quality power amp when using Maggies. I don't think you can get away with a so-so budget power amp. At least I wasn't able to find one that could live up to the sound quality delivered by high end power amps. Wattage doesn't seem to matter as much as quality of components matters. Also, a high-end power cable driving that amp can make quite a difference.
        
        But if we're talking bottom line, what really sold me on Maggies was when I heard the first demo, and realized that finally I can understand and get what were the singers intending when singing those lyrics. Hearing John Lennon singing "Ticket To Ride" and understanding, for the first time ever, what kind of scathing, sneering irony did he put into that song, made me realize that, unlike other speakers, it is only with Maggies that one can truly HEAR the music. I didn't care about the specs, or about the bass, etc., I just cared about the sheer musicality and faithfulness to life.
      - RE: Maggie madness - josh358 18:56:57 03/24/12 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 24, 2012 at 03:27:19
        
        I sent your post along to Wendell, and here's what he had to say:
        
        "A few years back, one of our most successful dealers was using smallish tube amps. Dealers do pretty much as they wish. Opinions vary. We have received mixed reports on Class D amps and are conservative in our recommendations. Class AB amps have a long and successful history.
        
        "Jon Valin did not say the 20.7s were underpowered. He said the amp got hot. We don't know why since other amps have not had a problem. I drove the 20.7s with our very old 35 watt NAD receiver."
        
        RE: Maggie madness - Satie 01:42:52 03/25/12 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 24, 2012 at 18:56:57
        
        There is no question of there being an audience for low volume playback, as it is never grating and not obtrusive. So yes, you can get much fun out of a SET driving maggies in an isolation chamber where you can hear your own heartbeats. It is particularly a spooky effect when you get sudden music popping up from silence due to the maggie's nonlinear behavior at the initiation of motion - low volume.
        
        But I think Wendell is ignoring the reality of the circumstances at the dealer's. There is just not enough time available for the client and the dealer to do multiple amps. The maggies will get one chance to click with the client. Since maggies are so insensitive and require so much power to get the bass going to normal demo volumes, the amp match at the dealers has to be good.
        
        Class D amps have their problem at the high freq end and it grates like nails on a chalkboard to people who can hear it - particularly on the ribbons but also on the QRs. So point taken, but class AB amps that can drive the maggies to produce their bass potential are generally as costly as the speakers, and then some. But there is no alternative but to have the speakers demonstrated with the proper amp so that the prospective buyer at least gets to feel their potential - even if he does not have the power at hand to drive them properly.
        
        This becomes more extreme with the less sensitive and higher performing 3.x and 20.x models, where the cost of adequate power should not be that much of an issue. Yet the cases in which a maggie is demoed with an adequate amp to elicit bass out of it, are rare. Wendell will doubtless say that near 1 kw for a 3.x or over 1kw for a 20.x is overkill and there is bass aplenty well below those power levels, that is not how it plays out at the demo.
        A relatively insensitive Vandersteen 2ce sig or 3A sig costs less than a 3.7 but can output more bass than the maggie and it is sufficiently controlled for most folks with just a solid 150 watt amp. That same amp driving a 3.7 will not produce the same bass output as the vandersteen though it is capable of coming close - just not with the 150 watt amp. With a 350 watter, like the Pass Wazoo was using, there is no problem - 600 watts into 4 ohms with headroom will do the trick. I also think that removing the biamp option for the 3.7 and 20.7 was a mistake, as now there is no legit choice for the owner but get subs or massive amps, or forgo deep bass. The option of using a cheaper high power bass amp with a grainy or otherwise offputting top end and a lower power fine sounding amp with weak bass for the top half is no longer a possibility. The biamp option made it possible to get the most out of a big maggie with $4-5k in amps. This leaves only a handful of amps for the owner. And those go for about $10 grand - and up from there. In that one decision, magnepan limited its client base by raising the cost of driving the speakers to double the cost of biamping, and gave the money away to the big amp makers.
        
        As JV noted, with conventional thinking of amp power requirements, he ran a 500 watt/4 ohms amp hot and was still missing 1/2 and octave of extension that a stock 20.x maggie can produce. That is because he should have used an amp with double the power.
        
        The competition to big maggies is not from ESLs, it is from plain ole steens and the like time coherent designs, that can be setup to produce full sized images with a degree of reality to them that you can walk in between the images. If you can't match most of their bass at a reasonable cost, then you have a problem in making the sale.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - djcxxx 05:57:41 03/25/12 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 25, 2012 at 01:42:52
        
        I agree w/ your analysis, but I do not believe that high volume and deep bass demos are what sell Magneplanars. Most prospective buyers (below 20.x) are taken w/ the natural timbre of instruments and the human voice suspended three dimensionally between the speakers. Good tube electronics, even w/ modest power (less than 200 wpc) will produce this effect. However, even "good tube electronics" will cost substantially more than the speakers themselves. These buyers have never heard reproduced music sound like music and that's the magic that the dealer offers w/ a good set up. Most of them have heard high volume head banging bass at some venue or another, that's not the Magenpan "hook" IMHO. That real problem is that they get home and hook the speaker up to low quality SS and don't get anywhere near what the dealer offered them. Insofar as the 20.x speakers are concerned I believe that's a different buyer that Magnepan and the dealers are assuming has his/her own gameplan to match his/her deep pockets. Loss of bi-amping on the 3.7s was a marginal decision, but on the 20.7s a very poor decision in terms of amplification needs and resultant choices.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - Satie 20:53:05 03/25/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by djcxxx on March 25, 2012 at 05:57:41
        
        I do believe you are right about the maggie buyer going for the particular open maggie signature and lifesize images in a natural sounding venue, but that does not mean that the prospective maggie owner would forgo bass power below 60 hz on a $5k speaker or 50 hz on a $14k speaker. The market for mini monitors is not that large outside of manhattan appartment dwellers. Besides maggies are floor standers. But the point i am trying to make is that most prospective maggie owners do not want to give up their bass after hearing cheaper Vandersteens or dearer Thiels.
        While they do not necessarily want to blast house music and drive by rap, they do want to know the speakers can produce what they want, even if it requires a later upgrade of the power amp. But never knowing that you could do without the expense and space needs of a subwoofer because the dealer was not mating the speakers with enough power - that is just a lost sale and another ding in maggie's already weak reputaton for bass production.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - TitaniumTroy 19:10:32 03/26/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 25, 2012 at 20:53:05
        
        So Wendall ran 20.7's with an old 35wpc receiver. Incredible, when I moved into my codo from my small apt, my MGIIIA's popped a tweeter with a 2001 era NAD receiver at 70 wpc and this was at low to medium volume.
        
        So I upgraded to a NAD 218THX at 225wpc, and currently I am running 3.6's with no problem's. Well plus a subwoofer crossed over at 40hz.
        
        I see Magnepan has no problem running 1000wpc Brystron's at their booth at the CES Show.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - ahendler 07:28:59 03/26/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 25, 2012 at 20:53:05
        
        The bass output of Maggies is really room and setup dependent. When I auditioned my 3.6's at the dealer the room was very dead and full of bass traps and sound deadining materials. As a result there was no bass below 50hz even though he was using Roger Sanders amp designed for the Maggies. But I still bought them because I had 1.6's at home getting down to below 40hz. My 3.6's at home are flat to 32hz and 3db down at 27hz. I use no room treatment and have them set up in the Rooze configuration. I do use a sub for that last deep octave.
        Alan
        
        RE: Maggie madness - Satie 09:18:25 03/26/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by ahendler on March 26, 2012 at 07:28:59
        
        You have just pointed out why you are an exception to the rule. Most folks would not know to expect more bass at home. You were fortunate to have the demo with the amply powered Magtech amp, but had it been a more mainstream amp with 1/3 the power, then the 50 hz cuttoff would have gone up to 70 hz. That is musically damaging.
        
        You also brought up the other issue with maggies demoed in the same space as boxes, where the room would be overdamped by a hefty margin for a planar.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - pistonengine 10:09:53 03/25/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by djcxxx on March 25, 2012 at 05:57:41
        
        I'll bet if you're handy with a soldering iron you can bi-/tri-amp anything.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 07:29:37 03/25/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by djcxxx on March 25, 2012 at 05:57:41
        
        Wendell wrote to say that the 20.7 doesn't have bi amping because the circuit doesn't allow it. He also pointed out that the dealers don't work for them . . . they can pretty much do as they please.
        
        BTW, I think there are good, economical SS amplification options for Maggies, e.g., the Emotivas. Not the last word in amplification, but so damned good that no one is going to be displeased with the results unless by way of comparison to the very best. And then it isn't so much a matter of being displeased as it is of saying "This cost only $700?!? It's almost as good as a $10,000 amp!" You'll get a vast, three-dimensional soundstage, though not quite the pellucid three dimensionality and natural-sounding liquidity of the best tubes; strides have been made, but still, in my experience, there always seems to be a bit of an artificial flavor quality to bipolar A/B.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - jsm71 09:43:22 03/25/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 25, 2012 at 07:29:37
        
        Second the Emotiva as a budget option. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I took my son HT shopping. We settled on Emotiva gear including their 5 channel amp. We just got everything set up a couple of days ago, and nothing is broken in yet, but still the initial impression is quite good for the money. Repeat, for the money. Emotiva sells a 1000 watt (over 4 ohms) mono for $999 each that has reiewed pretty well. I work with someone who has heard my Maggies, loves the sound but like my son can't afford sufficient power. He is really curious to hear my son's Emo settup after it settles down some.
        
        If I were a Maggie dealer I would use a kilowatt amp and play both Diana Krall (soundstage and imaging) and Flim and the BBs (massive dynamics and bass). Next I would explain why the choice of amps and explain that the combination of Maggie cost and amp should be considered in total to other shopping choices. I would also explain that a getting started option is to use something more modest if the budget didn't allow it. IMO you can't just demo Maggies with weak power.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - Utley1 19:50:40 03/26/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by jsm71 on March 25, 2012 at 09:43:22
        
        I have and enjoy the XPA 1's with Maggie 1.7's. They have treated me to a level of dynamics and clarity at a price level that was unimaginable afew years before.You get an awful lot from a set up like this without investing big books. Because they are so full sounding from top to bottom as are the Maggies. room placement is essential: also a combination of resistors and chokes. are well worth the trouble. It is a amazing what a few $ worth of resistors can do. You can shape the XPA 1/ mG 1,7 in many ways to fit your room characteristics. I would assume this process must be done with much higher p;rices equipment. My view is that even with this relatively modest expenditure you can really enjoy music....
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 10:30:55 03/25/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by jsm71 on March 25, 2012 at 09:43:22
        
        I have an XPA-2 and I think anyone would be happy with the sound. It's like the smaller Maggies in that respect -- sure, you can get more for more money, but it passes the threshold at which most anyone would be delighted to own and use it.
        
        I do understand the lure of sonic perfection, but even an unlimited budget won't get you there and I wouldn't want to get to the "audiophile nervosa" point at which you stop enjoying great sound because there's something with a bit more bass or cleaner treble. Improvements should be fun, and something to look forward to.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 05:34:42 03/25/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 25, 2012 at 01:42:52
        
        I tend to think that even those who don't push their speakers to natural levels on Mahler are likely to do so *during a demo* just to see what the speaker can do. Not to mention that some do like to listen at those levels. And either way, if this happens, you'll lose sales.
        
        I wrote Wendell back last night making those points but he said he trusts his dealers to know what sells speakers. I gotta think, based on the reports I see here, that he's sometimes too trusting a guy. :-)
      - RE: Maggie madness - josh358 17:32:16 03/24/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 24, 2012 at 03:27:19
        
        Particularly in a large showroom. I don't understand this either. I mean, yes, there are listeners, maybe the majority, who don't listen at natural levels and have no need for a powerful amp. But in a showroom, you have to accommodate everybody, and people who want to pull out all the stops to see what the speaker will do even if they won't be listening that way at home. Have to ask Wendell about it.
    - RE: my Tympanis used to bottom on the cannon shots on the Telarc 1812 - JBen 20:27:03 03/23/12 (1)
      My MMGs, just after I got them old and with the original parts, also bottomed out with this Telarc SACD. In the process one of the old caps gave the spirit.
      
      In the 80s, Telarc's original 1812 LP had the nasty tendency to blow my box speaker woofers (I even had replacements in stock). Eventually, it blew a power amp. In all cases, it was a glorious experience...with the final salvo setting the amp on fire. I mean, the LP grooves on the cannon shots where out of this world, with visible angular mudulation!
      
      Recently, I tested the MMGs to 108db peaks with other music (not the cannons) before I became concerned about the neighbors. After I am finished with the Stixbees' new wood and integrated the results of my experiments with wings & wingies*, I'll be happy if I can do a few 110db+ peak runs, just for kicks.
      
      *My wife just approved the new look, on paper, and called them "LWingies" (looeengies). I'll see if I can post a drawing later.
      - RE: my Tympanis used to bottom on the cannon shots on the Telarc 1812 - josh358 17:40:03 03/24/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: my Tympanis used to bottom on the cannon shots on the Telarc 1812 posted by JBen on March 23, 2012 at 20:27:03
        
        It used to blow the fuses on my 1-D's. Thankfully, 1-D's were pretty much indestructible -- no true ribbon tweeter to go, and the fuses were sufficient to keep the planar magnetic tweeter from melting. Which as someone pointed out the other day made them great home theater speakers.
RE: Maggie madness - JBen 12:26:05 03/22/12 (22)
Not quite in the same league but it was just my own feeling after listening to the $55k Nola Baby Grands last year. Terrific sound, but not even close to my modded MMGs in satisfaction value for the money.

Now, per Neo's theory, at least Wendell did get me to salivate for the 3.7s when the time comes...but I am not being tortured by the wait : - ))
- RE: Maggie madness - magiccarpetride 12:29:02 03/22/12 (21)
  Haven't listened to 3.7s yet, but after auditioning 1.7s, I didn't feel even the slightest urge to replace my MG-I IMPs.
  - RE: Maggie madness - Dawnrazor 23:39:13 03/22/12 (20)
    It is a rare dealer who can properly setup and demo maggies. It is an even rarer dealer who wants to SELL you maggies.
    
    Said another way I had the same reaction to the 3.6s I heard at a dealers shop. It sounded worse than my mmgs!
    
    But no one sane thinks the mmgs are better than the 3.6s.
    
    Now I am assuming that you demoed them in a dealers showroom, but I bet I am right on that, right?
    
    Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
    - RE: Maggie madness - Green Lantern 15:57:00 03/23/12 (4)
      took my brothers on a 45 min drive once to hear 3.6's only to spend the return trip apologizing on how bad they sounded.. dealers will set them up improperly and blame it on Magnepans inability to deliver bass, then try to sell you one of their subwoofers; not realizing when properly setup and driven, no subs are required (well for most folks anyway).
      
      may the bridges I burn light the way....
      - RE: Maggie madness - pistonengine 16:55:14 03/23/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Green Lantern on March 23, 2012 at 15:57:00
        
        Gotta have the sub - I love that 20hz feeling in my buttocks.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - pistonengine 16:55:38 03/23/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by pistonengine on March 23, 2012 at 16:55:14
        
        That didn't come out right...
        
        both post are funny (not to mention compliment each other :) - Green Lantern 20:39:38 03/23/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by pistonengine on March 23, 2012 at 16:55:38
        
        but yeah; understood
        
        may the bridges I burn light the way....
        
        I was wondering just then... :-)) nt - JBen 17:23:09 03/23/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by pistonengine on March 23, 2012 at 16:55:38
        
        .
    - RE: Maggie madness - magiccarpetride 09:31:56 03/23/12 (0)
      Now I am assuming that you demoed them in a dealers showroom, but I bet I am right on that, right?
      
      That was a safe bet, Dawn:) I only listened to them at dealer's, who was driving them using McIntosh gear. Maybe it was the room, maybe it was the upstream mismatch, but they sounded underwhelming, to put it very mildly.
    - RE: Maggie madness - JBen 06:32:01 03/23/12 (0)
      This seems to be the case with some dealers. Yet, the one over here is good. Some people around here don't like that one has to make an appointment. I kind of got put off by it also at first, years ago.
      
      However, they prepare for you. Even if they can't make an ideal setting available, theirs is good enough to begin with. By the time you arrive, the gear is warmed up, things are in place and they give you time to tweak a little. If they tried to do this with every walk-in, the Maggies would never get a fair audition.
      
      That said, the first audition of 3.6s there, a while ago, did have me loving my MMGs more for a while during the session. The only more charming thing was the ribbon tweeter. Then they allowed me to tweak the room a little and things began to fall in place. I could see the promise.
      
      Now, for the 1.7s and 3.7s I asked for schedules when I could spend more quality time with each as they matured (several visits). The 3.7s never felt too green and by the last time I last heard them I was salivating for them.
      
      OTOH, the 1.7s took their time but they eventually showed their great charms. If I had not been so lucky improving my MMG's tweeter, the 1.7 would have been a natural step-up. The 3.7s will have to be it for me, however.
    - RE: Maggie madness - jsm71 06:25:24 03/23/12 (12)
      What is it with dealers? They must know that Maggies are more critical to setup than the other boxes they sell, yet they just stick them anywhere. I was helping my son look for HT speakers so we visited the two somewhat close-by high end audio hangouts. He needs a more traditional 5 box setup due to placement limitations, but he has heard my Maggies many times and knows how they are supposed to sound.
      The store that sells Maggies has the 3.7s in sort of an open hallway aiming across the width with no side walls. They have the 1.7s in a rectangular room but those are not placed well either in my opinion. In both cases they are running Moon integrated amps with low end music servers, which (sorry to Moon fans) sound thin, likely due more to the setup than anything else. My son asked "Why do the 3.7s sound like crap? Your setup is really sweet". I fully agreed on both counts.
      To address the OP's topic, we also heard Focal Stella Utopia IIIs ($90K) and some Wilson Sophias ($18k) that day. Not tempted. The Focals just sounded huge but with a wierd soundstage. The Wilsons actually sounded better than the monster Focals IMHO, but not better than Maggies, and I'll bet the 20.7s would seal that argument if set up correctly. I also have applied serious money in supporting equipment to bring out the best of my Maggies. They do exploit quality electronics as well as any and more than most.
      
      Edits: 03/23/12
      - RE: Maggie madness - Satie 10:08:20 03/23/12 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by jsm71 on March 23, 2012 at 06:25:24
        
        Second the odd soundstage on the Focal.
        
        At the dealer's they were setup in an acoustical disaster room with insane treatments and the Utopia's mtm portion's lobes were not aimed correctly. I had to go on my knees behind the listening seat to find the correctly reinforced lobe.
        
        At my friend's the well engineered acoustics and did provide very good tonal performance for the Utopias but the soundstage was a weirdly deep box between the speakers. Detail retrieval was very good, not far from a planar. BTW it was powered by a big Moon integrated, which was very good. It does not sound lean or thin at all - now heard on 4 or 5 different speaker systems (nova Utopia, Cremona M, Joseph Pearls, Revel Studios, focal MTMs).
        
        Comparing these Utopias and other speakers from Magico, B&W, Sonus Faber, Revel etc, to a plain jane stock maggie - 3.6 or 1.6, there is a very obvious superiority in midrange detail against both, but it is not night and day, and a superiority in treble against the QR tweeters. The bass is not as tight on the box speakers, but there is way more of it, it has more impact, and extends lower.
        There is more to be had from maggies via mods. with the ribbon tweeter powered directly by a class A amp with a cap and resistor line level filter, there is nothing at all superior to it among the best box speakers. However, even with direct drive via multiamping, the midrange is not as transparent with the wire mid maggies. That said, none of these top end box speakers have the kind of soundstage and image presentation that the maggies produce. Imaging may be more stable and less ethereal, but there is a smaller scale and less natural feel to them. With bracing multiamping and sufficient power, the maggies have decent bass, superior in tightness, competitive in medium volume dynamics, but not in uncompressed loudness and definitely not in extension.
        
        However, Tympani bass panels when braced and supplied with ample power can do far better in the bass than the 1.6 and 3.6, that are just too small to do it. They are competitive in uncompressed mid bass down to 40 hz with most of the top end box speakers. They only lack in the bottom octave against the biggest of the box speakers, but don't think your little Bryston 4B.x will do the job, nor would anything less than 1 kw at 4 ohms with stability at high current draws. You also need to have the XO active at line level. I have mimicked the Utopia's tonal balance successfully down to 30 hz, below that I don't get the substantial power tha the Utopias can output. But it is not by that much.
        
        I would presume that the thinner midrange QR drivers in the 20.7 will give the kind of detail that is just not quite there on the other maggies' midrange. In the case of the Tympani models, the midrange was downright thick in high end terms. I replaced mine with a BG Neo8 line array. This is easily as good or better than all of the box speakers I have ever heard under any circumstances anywhere.
        
        I kept looking for speakers that can give me a direction as to where to aim in further tweaking my speakers. The only thing that I have found was the unreal bass heavy balance of the Utopia line, which I actually liked better than the more neutral balance I had aimed for before. It is terrifically disapointing that there is nowhere to go from here without taking a second mortgage or pimping my neices and probably nephews too for the likes of an MBl 101.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 18:45:13 03/23/12 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by Satie on March 23, 2012 at 10:08:20
        
        Great post.
        
        I understand your frustration that there's no where to go. You could aim for an improved ribbon, maybe buy a pair of 3.3's and use those? 20.1's still being too expensive. Other than that, all I can think of is trying an electrostatic midrange (I know you don't want a ribbon because of the torsion problem), getting more Tympanis and adding bass panels, or going with tri-center, surround, or DEQX (though I also know you don't want to go digital). (You could also add a line of plasma tweeters, at $7000 a pop . . . )
        
        RE: Maggie madness - emsquare 21:58:24 03/23/12 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 23, 2012 at 18:45:13
        
        Since you mentioned a plasma tweeter....
        Plasmasonic - audio modulated Tesla Coil
        Nikola Tesla would have approved, I think. Although it is likely more of a novelty than a serious, high performance tweeter. That said... it is still pretty cool.
        
        Edits: 03/24/12 03/24/12
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 17:41:20 03/24/12 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by emsquare on March 23, 2012 at 21:58:24
        
        That's great. Now, if we can only make a line source version (how about a 6' arc?).
        
        RE: Maggie madness - emsquare 08:35:28 03/25/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 24, 2012 at 17:41:20
        
        Isn't it though? A rather cool light show to go with the music. An old idea but a goody.
        A friend that I worked with built his own Tesla coil and was way proud of it. He went to see Duke University's Tesla coil for inspiration. After seeing what they had he told me that he was " I was not impressed. They call that a Tesla coil?" His neighbors complain about reception problems when he runs it of an everning. They're kind of afraid of him so no one complains much. He's a bit of an odd bird but harmless. I think it's the camoflaged paint ball outfit he uses to go play on weekends. He looks a little terminator like and is about 6'4" and 220 lbs. If they were casting for the next Texas Chainsaw Masacre he looks the part of an unstable serial killer too. And if they knew that he was studying for the priesthood they might be a little less intimidated. I kept this to myself as I found it to be pretty funny.
        Hmmm... a set of Plasmatronic speakers or build a set of Linwitz Labs Pluto's? I'm going to have to go with the Pluto's because a couple of the videos shows that some nasty sparks arc out from the plasma stream every so often. That would pretty much ruin the mood if you have to keep putting out the carpet. And I cannot imagine a worse RF inviroment. It would take a lot more than chokes to suppress that. Still, the cool factor cannot be denied.
        
        Edits: 03/25/12 03/25/12 03/25/12
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 12:48:55 03/25/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by emsquare on March 25, 2012 at 08:35:28
        
        I think Mmlrot1 has a pair of Plasmatronics, paired with Apogees in the bass. Also read somewhere that Prof. Hill says he could build a full-range plasma if he had the funding.
        
        When I was in school, they had a two-story-tall Van de Graaff generator next to the physics building. I always thought that would be a good way to take revenge on an excessively electrostatic cat. Come to think of it, what about a cat speaker? You could charge its fur with a rotating glass rod, and use stators located on either side to play it. And you'd get the occasional meow for color.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - pistonengine 20:52:58 03/25/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 25, 2012 at 12:48:55
        
        Cats are notoriously hard to dampen well. You'd either need to spend a fortune's worth of time developing a well-made sealed box or live with the residual noise. Not worth the time for the results, but could be one of those things just to say you did it.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 18:24:23 03/26/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by pistonengine on March 25, 2012 at 20:52:58
        
        On the other hand, if you try to dampen them, their SPL goes through the roof!
      - RE: Maggie madness - magiccarpetride 09:40:40 03/23/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by jsm71 on March 23, 2012 at 06:25:24
        
        What is it with dealers? They must know that Maggies are more critical to setup than the other boxes they sell, yet they just stick them anywhere.
        
        Maybe it's Maggies relatively low price tag? I've noticed that dealers have a tendency to look down on the economy class gear. I remember a few years back when I asked my local dealer about the Oppo player, he went all snobbish on me. He said that just the power cable on his other players costs way more than the Oppo player. Yeah, so what?
        
        They don't seem keen on working their tails off to make a sale, unless there is a promise of a huge commission at the end of the rainbow. And I'm not sure how hefty would a commission on Maggies be, considering all the requisite hard work needed to set them properly. On the other hand, a commission on a $90K pair of speakers must be worth salivating over.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - josh358 18:58:20 03/23/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by magiccarpetride on March 23, 2012 at 09:40:40
        
        Suspect you're right about that.
        
        I see that Stereophile gave the Oppo a Class A rating, BTW. Good for them!
        
        RE: Maggie madness - magiccarpetride 11:06:52 03/26/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 23, 2012 at 18:58:20
        
        Yep, that was a gutsy move.
        
        RE: Maggie madness - mike kletecka 05:42:16 03/24/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maggie madness posted by josh358 on March 23, 2012 at 18:58:20
        
        Thank GOD for Maggies, be it the MMG's, 12's, 1.7's, 3.7's etc. Over the years I've been blessed by having some wonderful "cone" speakers, my favorites being "Merlin". However, my favorite all time speaker was my old 3.6's (currently, I have the MMG's which fit & work wonderfully in my small 850 sq. ft. condo/apartment, and I'm loving them)
        
        I've not heard many speakers costing more than $10K, therefore I cant comment or make any comparisons. The bottom line for me, is that Maggies have been the best overall speaker I've owned, with the added bonus of being cheap. Thank you Magneplanar for having the model line-up you have, which address's "most" everyone's budget and space
It's a plot - neolith 12:09:52 03/22/12 (1)
by Wendell to get you to think that $14k for 20.7's is a good compromise :).

On the violin: "Heaven reward the man who first hit on the idea of sawing the innards of a cat with the tail of horse."
- RE: It's a plot - farfetched 15:21:27 03/22/12 (0)
  the maggie line is a thing of beauty
  / optimally proportioned triangles are our friends

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