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To the delight of some, I'm quite certain, this is my final post as a member of this community. Rules exist for a reason, but they are systematically flaunted in this forum – the moderators don't seem to care. Based upon the recent censorship of this forum, it appears they are more concerned with complaints about the individual in question than about his continued violations. So be it. I'm sure they can carry on without my contribution to their coffers, but that's $100 I won't be spending next year.
Fare thee well.
Follow Ups:
We miss you and MJ is posting without counter.
You are needed to balance things out.
Josh, where are you?
Hi Satie,
I've been in touch with Wazoo and Jim by email. I haven't had much time to post for the last couple of days, but I guess the truth is I haven't had much inclination to either. It bothers me that Wazoo and Dave were driven away through no fault of their own, and it bothers me that one of the two bad actors is still here insulting Wazoo and crowing about his departure.
Satie:
It's like hitting your head against the wall here as most of the threads do bird walk off subject and become personal. I found a place where people actually discuss things without the hate and rancor as have several others who have excaped the asylum.
The sad thing is that there are a lot of really knowledgeable folks here who don't post as much or at all because of the fear of the mud slinging.
Jim
Music is the best thing you can do legally that doesn't require a medical prescription!
We've lost too many good folks here. You have nothing but good to contribute to this site. We've already lost too many for the same reason over the years, don't add to PG's list.
At times I think he does this intentionally so he can have anybody that questions the almighty (quote "I think the fact that my lifepath in numerology is a 44-8 has more of an influence. (it's the same one Jesus had) according to that, I'm supposedly here to instruct and guide my fellow man to a higher plane on a path I build for them.") not be around.
Hi, I am not an frequent poster but why be so extreme if I may ask. After
all this is just a website for many to enjoy their audio interests and not
the end all of audio knowledge. As for myself I see a range of posts from
newbies to long term fans of audio and feel you are not being fair to yourself or the group by leaving. IMO. We all have our opinions and mistakes happen with monitoring I am sure. If you really think about it
we are here for a hobby that we all enjoy and keep outside of our daily
lives as unique. Nothing earth shattering but one to make the weeks ,months and years of our lives a little more interesting. Maybe give this
forum a little more time. You have some good ideas and why move on when
you can benefit others ...
I haven't posted here in quite some time, but rarely a day goes by that I don't check in to observe the brilliance, madness and sometimes mayhem that often ensues en route to the journey of discovery that everyone's participation in this forum has created with regard to the planar magnetic speakers that have so enriched our experiences and increased our enjoyment of recorded music. I find this forum to be an incredibly valuable (and obviously polarizing) resource of information and experimentation that's totally transformed my appreciation of my Magneplanar MMGs and elevated my enjoyment of the music to levels I'd never have believed possible. Without this forum, I'd never have gained the necessary information or confidence to perform the mods to my MMGs that have so radically altered my approach and experiences of the last couple of years.
That said, it's a source of constant amazement to me, the infighting, bickering, name-calling and general bad behavior and intolerance among the personalities that frequent here. The last time I posted was about a year ago, and it came at a moment of sheer euphoria for me; over the course of about six months I'd taken the initial steps and bypassed the tweeter fuses, then built oak stands to elevate and increase the speakers' rigidity. I then took the radical step of quasi-Gunning the MMGs with PG's crossover mods: the cumulative effect of all the above has offered my enjoyment of music new levels of dynamics and realism.
Everything I needed to make my dream a reality was gleaned from an extensive survey of these pages. And when -- out of sheer, almost uncontainable joy -- I posted my experiences here, I was almost immediately hammered by Waz, telling me -- essentially -- what a stupid, uninformed f*ck I was, and how what my ears were telling me was correct couldn't possibly be. The day-or-so long thread that followed was a mixture of congratulations and good cheer from many, occasionally tempered with further attacks on my audio experiences and obvious character flaws, along with a generous proportion of name-calling and mud slinging between Waz and PG.
I'm pretty thick-skinned, and my 30-or-so years in this hobby/obsession/addiction has left me pretty firm in my convictions that I know what I'm hearing, and when what I'm hearing is musically accurate and correct. While I'm very opinionated about this, I don't make a habit of belittling those I come in contact with in the audio realm by attempting to invalidate any of their own conclusions or opinions (at least, not out loud). And while the vast infusion and divergence of information here can easily have a very polarizing effect on the participants -- I have to be honest -- it can be seriously offensive! I've personally gotten so much good out of this forum, but there's one hell of a lot of ill will here, as evidenced by the events of the last few days.
Don't get me wrong -- I don't worship at the altar of PG, although I do believe there's some pretty good science behind his crossover designs. I figured out pretty quickly that he's a bit of a loose cannon -- I guess he fits right in here. But because in my own system I see the validity of his approach, I don't appreciate being told (by Waz) how incorrect my conclusions are.
I still think there's a lot of useful information to be found here. But you gotta filter through a whole lotta crap to get to the good stuff.
Tom
Tom, I just read the thread and can see how you could have felt at the time, over a year ago. It is understandable, at that time.
Most certainly, when we feel, or are in fact, attacked, our instincts easily kick in. We retort. Later, many of us have a harder time than others in re-acquiring a balanced perspective with regard to the person who offended us. It is easier to mark them as "the bad" than to attempt to understand where they came from. We don't feel naturally compelled to find what was behind it all.
Yet, if we do, we often discover far more good than bad. It is a blessed gift when we can do so, as hard as it may be. Nature itself does not provide us with that gift; our God-given sense of humanity does. Thus, if your post was some kind of gloat based on suppressed resentment, I propose that you tap into that gift. Perhaps Wazoo will surprise you.
In my case, I've been lucky to discover the positive value of ALL people here; in some cases despite our differences. I'd be very unhappy to see PG being banned while I still hold hope that he can moderate his impulses, which I still do. That PG and I have differences of opinions has never hidden his contribution from my perspective, nor my respect for it. I truly hope that we can see him stay around, just not at the expense of other good people.
It was in the spirit of moderation and an attempt to acquire some perspective that I waited a year to offer any response. This was not a gloat. I think that you are the one missing the point here -- the point being that many of the members of this forum have serious freakin' issues! I don't want to see anybody banned, and I don't want to see anyone feel forced to leave -- I just want to see everyone either stop behaving so badly, or at least suppress the urge to lash out at each other in situations where divergent perspectives should be acceptable and not the basis for World War III.
This forum is a microcosm of all the craziness that's rampant in the world today.
Tom
One of the most noble things I ever undertook was being on the 2009/2010 Los Angeles County Civil Grand Jury, which was a full year assignment. The 23 that comprised said jury came from just as many different backgrounds, races, creeds, political ideologies.
Needless to say it was a rather unique experience especially the trust that was built among many of us. I made several lifetime friends with many who I never thought I would want to associate with.
There were too many heated debates that went beyond the scope of our duties. Most of which the individuals arbitrated on their own. Yet there were occasions where the Jury Foreperson had to intervene and boundaries were established. Most emanated from a few who had agenda's that the rest of the jury didn't.
In the end, we did our job and wrote and published our report which I might add, benefited all of the people of the County and City of Los Angeles.
Yes, this place is a microcosm of the real world and there will be heated debates, some of which will arise to a level of discomfort for many. Those are the ones where the moderator needs to rule with a strong grip.
I personally don't think the answer was to delete any of the posts and leave them out there for all to see. Do I think there was a ganging on effect, no, especially when PG is able to speak for himself. Did it warrant intervention from a mod, probably.
As many of you can see, I can be a handful at times, but understand, I am sincere and will be the first to admit when I'm wrong and apologize if I breached the level of civility that I ask for.
I too have gleaned some very useful information here and hopefully will make some friends along the way. That said, there is no need for some of the rancor, name calling and obvious agenda's that also surface here.
I left about 4 years ago and didn't announce my departure over the same shit. I love my system, but I know there are better ones and hope that I don't come off as arrogant in my enjoyment of what I have, but all of the you haven't heard the promised land if you don't do this or that is crap as it can be said in ways that don't come with a tinge.
It was class that Mart took his time to email with me back and forth and because of that I may re-register and be a player around here.
This notion of what a man is by one poster is absurd and I agree with Grant about taking the high road. There is much more to learn than Planar's around here if one is open to it.
I only hope that Wazoo is lurking and comes back as I do believe things will be better around here because of him.
Jim
Jim, I am damn proud of what you just said, for it represents some of the real stuff we aim to be about. Each of us drops the ball at times, that's human nature. That we are then able to say "I am sorry" when the time calls for it, and carry on with a positive attitude, makes us all stronger. Argument is not our enemy, wanton disrespect is.[Waz, is it now becoming more clear that we have much more to lose?]
Edits: 02/27/12
incredible insight; great read..;)
may the bridges I burn light the way....
I had a couple of posts in the thread that were deleted.
It is my hope that nothing I posted caused any discord
or offense among the members here.
I wish you all well.
Good day
Pat, please don't worry, it was nothing you did. Your posts got erased because there is no way to be selective. When deleting at any given point, post threads below it vanish also. In fact, the tricky mechanics of achieving the intended deletions went wrong by accident and things got messy.
JBen, Good to know. And I understand that web maintenance can be tricky, I was a programmer/developer/maintenance/tester/designer prior to my retirement. Just another working schmuck, now trying to survive on my meager pension and savings until I'm old enough to draw from SS.
Just seems to me, that I see way too much animosity and contentiousness everywhere I look on the internet these days. That and advertising, advertising everywhere we look.
Case in point, I thought Angelina Jolie looked anorexic on the Oscars last night. And seeing her look the way she does, concerns me and I hope she doesn't have an eating disorder, or some other health issue because she just didn't look well.
Apparently I'm not the only person who thought at least part of these things. She made Yahoo's news.. (I know, who doesn't or when doesn't she). But anyway, the point is, if you look at the comments following the Yahoo news article about her, there are just sickening numbers of hateful comments about her in the comment section, about the way she looked. Hateful things being written and shared. It's unbelievable how many unhappy or angry people are eager to attack her just for her looks, or who she is, or whatever she represents to them. That's the kind of thing that concerns me; this avalanche of anger, hate, and contentiousness out there, is just so disturbing.
I don't see it to that degree here. But it would be great if we could all just try to remember the golden rule. You know, we all learned it in grade school; 'treat others the way you would like others to treat you'. Ask ourselves if whatever it is we are posting would make us feel better if it were something someone else posted at or to us.
Random acts of kindness. Paying it forward. The golden rule. However you want to call it. In the '60s we called it 'peace' as the police were bashing heads..
And so I say to you and to all here..
Peace
Good day
this place would'nt be the same without you Waz; I sincerely wish you'd reconsider!
man I hate to see anyone get banned or leave...
Pete I hope you also do the same when the time rolls around.
may the bridges I burn light the way....
I don't even know what you're complaining about unless it's Peter Gunn.
I recall seeing a few alerts about one thread this morning. Apparently, the mod cut Peter Gunn's posts from the thread. Our software only trims off branches. If you responded anywhere in the bunch of posts after Peter's, it got deleted too as it's now out of context and we have no way of deleting a single posts and leaving all the response to it.
Deleting 2 posts caused collateral damage in removing a total of 26 according to the logs. Sorry, what do you want us to do?
-Rod
Rod,
I fully expected my posts, as well as those by everyone else beneath the offending ones, to be deleted along with the offending posts. That did not happen. The offending posts remained after mine and those by a few other members were discarded - hours after. As I had received no response to the alert I sent regarding the offending posts, what was I to think? Perhaps, I acted a bit hastily, but it matters not. This situation was destined to repeat itself until things got very ugly.
You don't need that in your forum and I don't need that in my life. I've grown tired of waiting for what I cannot control to change - it appears that it never will. I do have control over my membership and I exercised it. I no longer have one. Sadly, I'm not alone. I sincerely enjoyed my time here (nearly all of it, anyway), but it has become an either/or situation.
He's all yours - enjoy!
Sincerely,
Kevin
PS - I will deeply miss the conversations with the many wonderful people in this community. I wish you all the best.
Hey Rod,
I know you were asking Waz, but one thing that should happen here is that the reviews Peter Gunn has posted in the asylum review section for the MMG and the 1.7 should be deleted or at least have some big bright text explaining that PG is a modder of magnepans and to take his comments with a huge grain of salt.
Here is one of the 2 reviews he has on the magnepans he mods, which ironically finds all the "weaknesses" that his mods claim to fix: http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Speakers/Magnepan/Magneplanar-MMG/MUG/12/128298.html
The review portion drops the "M" designation (I am guessing because manufacturers reviewing other manufacturers products is in such poor taste that it wasnt even thought of as a possibility) so you cant tell who is who. Even then how many people even know what the M is for????
I am betting if Ah Tjoeb for instance reviewed the marantz cdps they mod or some other modder did a review of the products they mod, those reviews would be pulled pronto. So should PGs IMHO.
Overall the moderation is pretty good here and often I appreciate Mart's hands off free speech approach. It works pretty well here with the exception of manufacturers. Years ago there was this French company that made similar products like magnepan and would bust into threads. They got banned pretty quickly, but PG has been doing this for years so it makes one wonder why he has gotten a pass but the french guy didnt. Consistency is key.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
"A member of the trade may not volunteer any information about a specific product that he is selling or making, in response to a general request for information about a type of product or in any other discussion."
Some, myself included, feel that this is routinely violated by Peter Gunn of Magnestand. I have no ill will toward him and I understand interpretation is up to the moderator. I don't really care, as there are people here I ignore and others I respect. Others care more and move to other planar speaker forums. The level of knowledge on this forum is quite high. The level of discourse, not so much...
Regards,
Steve
We try. Our biggest problem is that we don't have mods that are reading every post and siting at their computers all day. Since I don't know the players here, we leave this forum pretty much up to Mart to handle.
What happens too often is that no one complains and folks take it on themselves to chastise a poster that they feel has crossed the line. Then the next time or another time, we get a few alerts and respond by deleting the post. Now, we're inconsistent.
It's a tough job. Mart's made the decision to take another tack. Hopefully that will work and the discourse level will rise back up.
-Rod
Rod and Mart,
I don't envy Mart his position. But I think I have to be blunt here. We've just lost three of our most valuable contributors, and they aren't the only ones who have left. We've had new posters come here and announce they were leaving the same day.
PG has offered much valuable advice and help over the years. I feel no personal animosity towards him and I really hope the situation could be rectified in a congenial way. But with key members leaving, I think the situation is close to the point of no return.
Unfortunately, I don't think this is just a matter of Asylum rules; those are fairly straightforward to police. What PG does, again and again, is to make tendentious and sometimes unfounded statements, some of which misrepresent the motives and actions of others in the industry, or hurt others in the group. He then interprets even polite disagreement as a personal attackm and makes a personal attack on the person who disagreed with him, frequently distorting what he and the other person said in the process.
Over time, resentment builds. I spoke to Wazoo by email, and, unfortunately, he has no intention of coming back. The problem has just gone on for too long.
Maybe I can give you an example of what happens, from PG's recent thread in the General Asylum. An excerpt from his original post:
"The goal now seems to be stick a 47 grand price tag on [an audio product] and write a good ad copy with the hope some sucker with money trying to look important will come along.... just keep telling them it's the best money can buy. . . . Audio has catered to this elitist snobbery for so long that it is connected audio from the lives of mainstream people."
Then when, having in effect insulted a lot of high end manufacturers, critics, and equipment owners, some posters question what PG said, he misrepresents his initial post:
"All I did to kill some time was to post a little query about this industry . . . "
And insults just about everyone on the group:
"Did it prompt civil discussion? No, it turns into an orgy of replies an opinions, each an island unto itself - I am loved, hated, right, wrong, promoting myself, promoting others, being rude, being kind, right on, right off, f*ck me, f*ck you. Some of the replies were such that it makes one wonder if the original post was read or understood at all.
"Whatever the answer to my question was, (Assuming anyone even cares, as there were those who only care WHY I care. They don't care about the thing itself, they only care that I care about it and I must explain myself while they are free from explaining their hypocrisy) anyway, whatever the answer is, what the carnage below this post indicates is a fractured and clearly non united group of people.
"I know of no other group of people online who supposedly come together in a brotherhood and yet who behave so badly, so rudely, so arrogantly to each other, as goes on in this community. That such a single innocuous question could result in such a carrying on, such resentment, so many insults? Audio elitism is certainly alive an well... "
There's more, but I think this is a pretty good indication of how skewed PG's perceptions can be, and how those skewed perceptions can lead to conflict.
I really hope that here's a way to reach PG and I'm sorry that I didn't mention this to him in a personal email before things came to a head. I had to learn the hard way that opinions have to be expressed with much greater care on the Internet than in everyday life or in print, and that those of us who are opinionated have to be very, very careful about what we say.
I honestly don't think PG is aware of what he's doing. He's not a troll, or anything like. I think his intentions are good and I think he genuinely believes what he says. But this sequence, and variations on it, is repeated again and again.
But with the group hemorrhaging, I think we're just about out of time.
Wow... miss a day, miss a lot.
I am typically just a lurker here, but I must say that I am grateful for the help and insight I have gained by reading some of the contributions of Wazoo and PG. Were it not for the help of PG, my MG-20's would still be silent in a corner somewhere.
Not going to stick my nose into a mess where it does not belong, but just wanted to pass along my thanks for this forum and it's members.
Cheers!
i know a lot of thought goes into some posts, but get over it. you'll still be able to think enough to post tomorrow. just don't reply to folks that use these forums to make a living (at least don't give it a lot of thought). i don't mind guys using this place to make some money, but just imagine if that was the main purpose. who would be posting then? every post would be a commercial. i kicked in an extra $100.
i totally missed it, but i can just imagine.
I figured as such.
When I first saw it happening this afternoon, I was replying to Davie, far down on the same topic thread. The reply did not go in. So I checked the thread from the main page. It was already short by a significant number of posts.
I've seen this happen before. I figured that Mart was trying to purge some posts but would face the limitations imposed by a multi-threaded system. It is not practical to be surgically selective. This is what Rod means.
I would imagine that Mart would have a headache as he tried to do it. He may be doing it in steps.
Rod, thanks for the clarification. There is still the offending PG piece at the end that some of us don't see how can remain unless it is just the system taking its time to purge. Hopefully, it will come out cleanly, assuming the Moderator intended it this way, which is my expectation.
Many of us do not find the cartoon by itself offensive and consider asking for it's removal, censorship.
> > > Many of us do not find the cartoon by itself offensive and consider asking for it's removal, censorship.
I was thinking the same when I saw what was left, but then decided, ok, let's clean house all together after reading JBen's post, so I deleted it.
Can't win for losing.
-Rod
I didn't get to see the posts that generated the brouhaha so that's the only reference I had to go on. If it's for the best, then so be it. It's a shame that a new poster had his thread become a runaway like that. Poor guy must be wonderin' what goes on around here. Maybe we can get back to the original intent of the OP's post. Personally I like suggestions number 3, 4 & 5.
I'm sorry to see you leave as you have been positive contributor to this forum. Remember, there's always a room in the inn if you change your mind.
I went down the page to see what had transpired and I see that JBen's post to PG and all the subposts had been removed. I agree with Waz, that it makes no sense. If the moderator, and I assume that is Mart, would apply the forum rules more strictly then a lot of the vitriol would have never appeared on the forum in the first place. Besides losing Wazoo, Davey has also cut back on his participation and I am sure there are others that are just turning their heads. Censorship serves a purpose but when it is applied inconsistently or capriciously then it becomes tyrrany. I appreciate all that Mart has done to make this forum what it is but a more even-handed administration is needed.
On the violin: "Heaven reward the man who first hit on the idea of sawing the innards of a cat with the tail of horse."
Or is the topic gone?
Dusty, we'll fill you in later. It seems to be an ongoing thing that should hopefully resolve itself soon.
A fraction of the picture may still be available in what remains of the thread: "Another MMG Help Story - Longish"
Yep, not much left thanks Jben!!
So what the heck happened?
I'm quite disappointed to read this. Disturbed even. I obviously didn't catch the dust up involved to prompt this decision. I will miss your participation and thoughts on equipment and music. (I absolutely love the Lather disc you recommended to me)
Well, I hope you change your mind later. If not then Godspeed to you Wazoo. We will be the poorer for it.
Waz, unless Mart told you that this was indeed the case, which can't be, this is a technical issue. It has to be a limitation in the manner in which a thread can be purged selectively or simply an unrelated glitch.
Let's ask.
JBen,
Unfortunately, it looks like both Wazoo and Medium Jim have deleted their accounts.
Yes, there's that, which I am hoping should be easy to undo on both Jim and Wazoo's accounts.
Also, the thread is apparently still being purged. We will see.
Have you communicated your views on the "Censorship" issue to the Mods to get their why & what-for? Whatever went on seemed to happen after my last check-in yesterday and my first check-in today and I've missed it. There will be no delight here with you not being around.
I'm done as well, too much BS from the Mods and Peter Gunn to swallow...
Jim
Music is the best thing you can do legally that doesn't require a medical prescription!
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