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In Reply to: RE: Lovin my MMG's, except..... posted by Peter Gunn on February 16, 2012 at 20:38:50
First, thanks a million to all of you for taking the time from your schedules to help me work through this.
And to you Mr. Gunn....your reputation certaily precedes you so thank you very much for contributing your analysis and offering a bit of sage advice.
However, with all due respect Mr. Gunn I'm going to have to address your "shotgun approach" comment. Not that you're wrong for saying that... looking back over my posts I can see the manner in which I've described my methods certainly does make them come across as "shotgun". But the fact of the matter is my tweaks have been fairly systematic and empirical. At any rate, I've tried to perform my mods/tweaks one at a time when possible (some mods by nature address more than one issue simultaneously) and live with the result for a full listening session or two with my reference tracks before I determine which issue should be addressed next.
I agree, my room is one issue and still needs some fine tuning to optimize the dipolar radiation pattern and I'm getting there slowly but surely as it's a work in progress (and yes, I suppose I'm a little guilty of "racing to the finish" but I'm not one to "let the grass grow under my ass"...if you know what I mean :^]).
So, with that, please allow me to offer a chronologically accurate, step by step description of my methodology. My apologies for not starting out this way.
My room was intitially very well treated for monpolar cone/box speakers and when I first set the MMGs up I did'nt like them at all. First thing I did was remove the absorption panels from the front wall and this helped imaging and soundstage but fidelity was lacking. Next I located what I felt was optimum placement for my room and performance on all levels improved once again. I then built the diffusion panels and set them up as you see them behind the speakers and they made a considerable improvement in fidelity...almost profound, actually. After that I replaced the factory stands with the 90 degree bracket mod to get them upright. This helped with clarity as well but the overall presentation really took a turn for the better (bigger...in a good way) when I got them up off the ground and on top of the subs. Now, I won't argue with anyone that 16" off the ground and on top of subs is not optimum, but the improvement over ground level was undeniable and a second set of critical ears agreed enthusiastically. Next I bypassed the fuses and attenuators and realized yet another improvement in fidelity. At this point the improvement in SQ was so vastly improved over my first impression with them in my room that I decided to leave the room and speakers alone switched my focus to trying out the different amps and preamps I had sitting around (and even with that there is still no verdict but I've settled on the Emotiva USP-1 and Emotiva XPA-2 for several weeks now in attempt to stabilized that variable).
After living with that arrangment for the past several weeks and making note of what I felt were problem areas I moved forward with my latest tweaks to the front corners of the room (removing some absorption and creating additional diffusion) and the mounting/positioning of the speakers (prototype stands to get them off the subs, closer to the ground, and more rigid).
Generally speaking I think the speakers sound outstanding compared to what I've been exposed to. Now I'm getting down to really fine tuning them to the point that I minimize, or eliminate, those "acceptable compromises". Just about anyone that listens to them now thinks they sound incredible and only the most critical of ears understands how I can hear room for improvement. So here I am for help from all of you salty dogs.
So last night I set them back to vertical and realized an immediate improvement in clarity and, to some degree, dynamics. Next I pulled the sidewall first reflection absorption down. To my delight this widened the soundstage more than I've ever heard it before but unfortunately with a catch. The top end is a touch shrill now and can get uncomfortable on certain tracks. I'm still interested in trying diffusion on the sidewalls...perhaps in conjunction with absorption. I'm thinking of making up similar panels to the ones I have behind the speakers except drill lots of holes in them and place 703 panels behind the diffusion panel.
But ultimately I see I need to make a more serious effort with my stands and address the networks. Prepare to have your collective brains picked as I think I may pass on the 1.6's and move forward with (seriously) modding the MMGs.
Follow Ups:
"So last night I set them back to vertical and realized an immediate improvement in clarity and, to some degree, dynamics. Next I pulled the sidewall first reflection absorption down. To my delight this widened the soundstage more than I've ever heard it before but unfortunately with a catch. The top end is a touch shrill now and can get uncomfortable on certain tracks. I'm still interested in trying diffusion on the sidewalls...perhaps in conjunction with absorption. I'm thinking of making up similar panels to the ones I have behind the speakers except drill lots of holes in them and place 703 panels behind the diffusion panel."
This is all behaving as it's supposed to. I love it when that happens.
The trick now to taming the high end is to add more HF absorption to the room, but in a different place. Season to taste. It doesn't really matter where, as long as the application is symmetrical and not at the first reflection points, where you do want reflections because they make the sound more spacious.
Has the Emotiva amp improved the impact of your drum playback?
Do you still have subwoofers around, or at least box speakers with strong bass drivers and an etra amp?
If so, get yourself a cheap commercial active crossover, like the Behringer 3400 - or get a better Rane or Ashly unit if the budget alows - and you can integrate the subwoofers or the box speakers' bass into the system and get the extra bass impact you want.
PG's crossover upgrade is also worth pursuing.
Satie,
Prior to the Emotiva I was running a Soundcraftsmen MA5002....which sounded great through the Maggies. Warm and dynamic and I really liked it. It went into protection mode shortly after I got the MMGs and after that happened the XPA-2 crossed my path and I took it in. I didn't get a chance to do a back to back comparo against the 5002, but it seemed to offer more detail with perhaps slightly better dynamics. I do have a freshly recapped and modded Hafler 500 that I compared to the Emotiva and it just didn't have the presence of the Emotiva. I can say with certainty the Emotiva has detail almost to a fault....but I suspect as I improve the fidelity of the MMGs I'll come to better appreciate the Emotiva. However, the Soundcraftsmen went out for a complete refurb with new output transistors and upgraded, higher value caps. I should have it back next week and I'm pretty excited to hear it. It's a great amp.
Yes, I have dual DIY subs with 12" Dayton Titanic MkIII drivers in a slot ported box tuned to 35 hz but I'm gonna seal them and see how that sounds. They integrate with the Maggies pretty good, but could be better. Surprisingly fast for a ported box, though.
RickyM,
Nice to have someone familiar offer a little Asylum perspective so thanks for sharing the info. I don't want to ruffle feathers but, you know, us Texans have that pride thing.....for better or worse.
Yeah, I've been a little busy. The Maggies just compel me to want more. They're so good when you start to hear the deficiencies you just have to get on it and make them that much better. My stands were just an attempt to see how responsive the MMGs were to a few adjustments I felt were necessary. I'm all about a more concerted, serious effort to get the most out of them. BTW, the link to the pictures of your Quasi-Gunned project you PM'd me on AK wouldn't open. I'd sure like to see your build.
And are there pics anywhere of the 'sticks mod?
T-TX, here are some pics. They may make more sense if you check the link at the bottom. No rocket science here...fireworks give me a hard enough time.
1. Do note the black tape at the top of the oak stick (1"x2"). It allows the cloth to slide back over the top without snags or tears.
2. In some cases, the original cloth will not be able to fully reach the bottom of the MMGs after the mod. [It suits me well for access to the contacts, which I later cover with another cloth segment. New covers will be ordered later.]
3. These are original-design MMGs. The frame sides on the newer ones are wider, perhaps allowing for a slightly wider stick on each side.
4. When covered back, I also use the original wood trim. I would not advise to leave the edges soft...but you are welcome to experiment.
5. Re-tighten to torque or just check every 6 months during first year.
Here are a few "assembly stage" pics of my MMG's. Unfortunately, I never took any pics during construction.
Damn pretty sight, Rickey!
I am not envious...I am not envious...I am not envious...(97 more times and ten flogs should do it, i hope : - ))
Boy I'll tell ya' what. If I find someone selling the same "Edge-Glued Hardwood Panels" that I used for the MMG's in the size I need for my 2.5's, it's on!
Maybe I should mosey over to Lowes?
Search for them as custom-made online. Here at the bottom is one source I just found. They do have Poplar.
Also, if it works for you, check the Janka hardness index. Poplar is like 300 vs the oaks of various types > 1200. For enhanced Stixbees I am looking into either Hickory, Persimmon, or perhaps even Ipe. These 3 are probably overkill in the mode that you frame...and much harder to work on.
As none of us were there we only had your words... which did lend the impression of a bootlegger flying down a dirt road at midnight :^ )
Let's simplify it. It appears you believe some modding or alterations are needed to both your MMG and your room to fully enjoy them. I agree with that.
As we are not there we have to assume the room you'll resolve on your own in time. It does however sound like you could benefit from treating the ceiling corners. May not seem like it would matter but in some rooms it makes a huge difference.
As for the maggies, it seems you have 3 options.
1 - Keep trying every mod every jack, jim and charlie recommends until it magically comes together.
2 - Pick one of them, jack, jim or charlie and do what they reccommend and nothing else.
3 - Say to hell with everyone and work thru it on your own.
In my experience #1 does not work and leads to frustration. #3 is only viable (and in fact is required) if you feel nobody else solved the problem to your satisfaction. That means you should logically go with #2.
Choose wisely, and good luck. :^ )
BTW, since I don't spend time here like I used to if you have an important question for me, email me, I may not see it if you post. Also, I do not disagree that heaven can be found in MMG's. It can be if they are altered properly so you have not made an unwise choice.
It's all about the music...
This "shrill" may be turn out to be a common thing with raised MMGs. I am just speculating but I am researching it these days. It is hard for me to be sure because my MMGs are of the original design. These have somewhat different "stringing", with less tweeter runs (6 vs 8 in newr models).
For years, I left my MMGs on the floor and standing straight, 90 degress. Though I tested raising them early on, they were not yet as optimized as today. So, I did not catch the "shrill" thing earlier.
Last year, I started raising them (long story). The "shrill" started showing up. The measurements mainly indicate a peak at and around 3khz...smack in the area were the ear is very sensitive. (There's another peak further up close to the 6khz range, but less strong)
If this is related at all, for now, I can suggest what PG must have discovered very early on. A slight tilt backward. PG has always said that they sound better this way. I can only say that when raised, MINE stop displaying the peak as they are progressively tilted. At just around 4-5 degrees, it pretty much goes away.
There is a price for me to pay if I tilt. I am fighting to avoid it here with no tilt.
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