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Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan?

64.252.118.104

Wendell asked me to post this. Just wanted to say that I hope everyone will answer forthrightly -- from my perspective, this isn't a personal referendum, but a question about whether people think it's a good idea, or feel that, as Wendell put it, my objectivity might be compromised. It's certainly different than just reporting back on something you heard at a dealers. So I hope everyone will feel free to speak their minds here or to Wendell without fear of resentment on my part.
____

Dear Inmates,

I have an unusual idea, but, it needs your full support before we would be willing to proceed. Your "vote" is requested.

There are a number of issues that might be of interest to you if you all were able to visit Magnepan. If you can decide on a date when all of you want to visit Magnepan, we'll buy dinner. (Were you expecting plane fare and a luxury hotel?)

As second-best, how would you feel about sending a "representative" in your place? We have had reviewers visit Magnepan, but, perhaps you don't trust their objectivity and maybe they didn't report on subjects that were of interest to you. Your "representative" could do that.

It seemed like a pretty good idea, but, there is the question of-- Who?

I have given this a lot of thought and feel that Josh would be a good choice. Here is my rationale---

Many of you have more years of Maggie experience and could legitimately ask-- "Why not me?"

I am impressed with the combination of Josh's technical knowledge and expertise plus the manner in which he has conducted himself in this forum. He strikes me as a person with a modest ego and nothing to prove. I don't think he can be "bought" with a fact-finding trip to Magnepan.

My concern is whether you all would view him differently after a "junket" to Magnepan? If his objectivity would come into question, then the whole point of this exercise would be null and void. Or if he would be viewed as an informal Magnepan representative, it would not serve what I had in mind. I would prefer that he be viewed more like a "consumer reviewer".

So, what do you think?

Follow Ups:

RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - crm3 22:16:22 10/22/11 (1)
I think josh would be an excellent choice for the following reasons:
1) His general audio knowlege
2) His board demeanor
3) His willingness to try to assist fellow inmates
4) He's willing to do it

I rarely post,(very poor at typing) but do enjoy reading the banter.
Please, let's not drive Wendell away again. It seems to me that he wants to have a contact with the planar inmates. Let's LISTEN to what he has to say. We have nothing to lose. IMHO
PS-- MY TOYS--
gnnd mmgs, gnnd mg12's, BAT 300xi, ATI 200w 5 chnl amp.
-- on order--
W4S st1000 & hopefully the minny maggies

Thanks,
CRM3
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 10:48:39 10/23/11 (0)
  Hi CRM, good to hear from you. Did you know that they're having a Mini Maggie home trial offer right now? It's on their web page, in case you want to take advantage of it.
  
  Don't think I've ever heard anything but good things about the W4S . . .
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - tyu 06:18:09 10/20/11 (1)
NO!
- Care to explain why not? - wazoo 09:27:38 10/20/11 (0)
  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, regardless of what it is (and you do not have to defend it). It would, however, be nice to know why you are against this idea.
  
  "Information is not knowledge.
  Knowledge is not wisdom.
  Wisdom is not truth.
  Truth is not beauty.
  Beauty is not love.
  Love is not music.
  Music is THE BEST." FZ
I think Magnepan should have a representative - fin1bxn 04:56:36 10/18/11 (2)
On the asylum instead. let them spend an hour a day listening and responding or researching when needed.

We all know what our speakers sound like and if someone doesn't they should go to their local Brick and Mortor or post hear to find an inmate locally.
- RE: I think Magnepan should have a representative - tyu 14:16:43 10/18/11 (0)
  After all this no one well go...he he...people here dont have to spend an hour a day listening thay no all..there is about Magnepan !
- RE: I think Magnepan should have a representative - josh358 07:04:50 10/18/11 (0)
  According to Magnepan, they don't have the resources to do that. But they do recognize the need for better communication, so there's now an "ask the factory" thread on the Planar Circle. Steve Ford will pass your questions on to Wendell and post his answers.
Go for it. - Mando 11:38:36 10/17/11 (1)
Sounds like a nice opportunity to visit Minnesota in the cold season.
What's not to like? That and a fine lutefisk dinner!

But seriously, I think it's a nice opportunity for one of our more informed, mainstream, and collegial people to get some inside perspective.

Go for it, Josh.
Thanks,
Mando
- RE: Go for it. - josh358 18:44:56 10/17/11 (0)
  "But seriously, I think it's a nice opportunity for one of our more informed, mainstream, and collegial people to get some inside perspective."
  
  And I was thinking of going too. :-)
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Hagar - IIIa 11:06:48 10/17/11 (1)
Yes Josh should be the one to go.

I have been reading here for many years, and we all have a short list of those that we listen too. Josh is on my list.

I feel he is respected by both Magnepan and the Asylum members.

Good for us all. Besides can you imagine all of us wanting to visit White Bear at the same time.

Dave
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 18:46:24 10/17/11 (0)
  That's a great idea, we could mount an invasion!
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - JLindborg 11:52:05 10/16/11 (0)
I too vote for Josh to be the representative as I find him to be knowledgeable enough and level headed.

The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Joe Mags 07:13:27 10/16/11 (3)
I like this idea but boy do I disagree with what some people think the rep should do while there. From a curiosity stand point, I would enjoy knowing more about "how the magic happens". It would make me feel more connected to the company to know just what went into making my wonderful 1.6s.

This line from one of the responses sums up what isn't right for me.
"Make it world class. We'll pay for it if you'll make it."

That is fine if you can afford it. This option is being met by other manufactures and there is nothing wrong with that. I fell in love with the sound of Maggies the first time I heard a pair in 1984. I wasn't able to get my own until just a few years ago. I'm now on my second pair and if it wasn't for the incredible value they bring I probably would not have them yet. From a cost to performance stand point, I think Magnepan has always had it right (at least for me). If you have the money just buy 20.1s and have them modded out the wazoo. Thats cool too but please don't price me out of the 3.7s I hope to own in a few years.
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 13:15:16 10/16/11 (0)
  One thing Wendell has made clear to me is that Magnepan is a value company. So much so that when dealers told them that they should charge more for the 3.7's, they refused.
  
  On the other hand, they do consider the 20.1's the cost-no-object Maggie, and everyone assumes there will be a successor at some point. And they've upgraded some components in their middle models, e.g., they're now using high quality caps in the .7 crossovers, something that a lot of us were asking for. So I think there's always room for improvements at various levels, as long as the meet their business criteria -- will it affect the price point, will we have to invest in new production equipment, can we ship it, how does it score vs. other improvements in blind listening tests, will dealers carry it and audiophiles buy it and cats scratch it, etc.
  
  So I agree with you that it would be a shame if Magnepan stopped being a speaker company for the 99%, but I don't have the sense that that's going to happen even if we pass on all our costliest desires. Also, I don't think it will take much time to run everyone's suggestions and questions past Wendell, so there should be plenty of time for flow in the other direction.
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - tyu 12:27:07 10/16/11 (0)
  Good point,Not on who goes, but that all here should give $100-200-each for who ever goes... for all the great points the rep well ask Magnepan..it only money right..Ringer goodluck..I stop needing anything from Magnepan on the 1.7s.OPCSMD...
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - pictureguy 11:05:19 10/16/11 (0)
  Yep, the 2 main attractions of Magnepan are cost/benefit and DIY.
  If Magnepan went full-tilt, they'd make more money per speaker and sell about 10% as many.
  
  If Magnepan were a large company with people NOT each wearing several hats, they could afford a 'special projects' department and make limited edition, cost-no-object versions of current models.
  
  Imagine the new 3.7s in real wood frames with a top line crossover and all set up to the buyers custom requirements. Upgraded crossover? easy. NO crossover? done. Cherry wood? give us an extra couple days........Like ordering from a Chinese menu.
  
  But, Magnepan is a small company so they concentrate on the core business without 'adventure'.
  Look how conservative they are and how slowly products are changed.
  Too much is never enough
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - pictureguy 22:31:42 10/15/11 (2)
If I went, I'd want to see quality records, control charts and (manufacturing) specifications.
I'd want to be aware of 'continuous process improvement' activities, best practices and some kind of either 6S or other quality program. I don't believe in inspection, but rather right first time.

I'd rather be treated as a sympathetic auditor than a tire kicking fan.
Too much is never enough
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 11:50:02 10/16/11 (1)
  Way beyond me, I'm afraid! I've consulted with factories on quality issues, but that was in areas in which I had the right expertise to be of use. I've done only small scale manufacturing myself -- 50 piece runs -- and I've never been involved in loudspeaker production.
  
  But I'll be glad to pass your concerns on to Wendell, as well as the concerns of others who have questions about quality. I know of a couple of issues -- a stripped screw on Elizabeth's 3.6, a bad ribbon on TYU's friend's Mini Maggie -- and PG's concern about build varying quality inside. I know already that they've addressed delamination with an R&D effort that led to the use of improved adhesives.
  - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - dromney 23:11:57 10/30/11 (0)
    Well, since I am self centered I will offer myself as a second person to go. I have 16 years of experience as an engineer working with production and quality as an electrical engineer and test engineer. So I have an eye for production techniques and quality control plus experience. Too bad I don't have the universal trust that Josh seems to have. Darn.
    
    Dromney
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - tcnicholas 06:13:20 10/15/11 (0)
I think it is a fantastic idea to send 1 or more to the factory. Not only can Magnepan bounce their future ideas around, the MUG inmates can share their visions / wishes as well. (Some of which have already been posted)
I'm unsure of the capability of this site...but a survey to the inmates (similar to surveymonkey) could be send out to collect a condensed listing of questions both to the MUG users and from Magnepan prior to the trip.
Looking forward to hearing the results.
Great idea
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - esande 04:29:00 10/15/11 (12)
Total nonsense. And I mean that in the the best way. This isn't a negotiation, if it were I would be there with specific demands.

And an agenda. Let's face it, a lot of us (what you mean us?) have some very specific questions about Magnepan.

It's not about being an ambassador or vetting someone to do that.

We're just a disorganized mob who happen to like Magnepan. Or at least the products. How do you go about gaining consensus in that context?

It would be like herding cats to get a spokesman for this group.

I'm personally on the "OK for the money but not enough effort in the execution" camp. That's why I paid a specialist to execute what I should have expected Magnepan to do in the first place. Damn the expense, it was worth it.

I think that in essence crystallizes an opinion that is well represented here.

We need that viewpoint to be well explained. Magnepan makes good speakers but many people have seen that they can be polished.

Nobody would disagree that all-American manufacture is bad or that we can benefit from that happening.

Get that across. We want to be prideful of our manufacturers and people.

Who would not be? If I had one thing to say to Magnepan, it would be to say, "Try harder. You are not impressing us with your quality."

Make it world class. We'll pay for it if you'll make it.
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 10:06:17 10/15/11 (11)
  I was just thinking of passing along any questions, suggestions, and criticisms, without regard to whether they're consensus views. As you say, looking for consensus would be like herding cats, though some opinions are shared by a number of people, e.g., I've seen several posts lamenting the loss of bi-amping capability, and I know that you're not alone in your concern about quality.
  - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - gentlegiantfan 09:57:19 10/17/11 (4)
    I found the QC discussions below very interesting ... but seriously, wasn't it a bit over-the-top? I mean, as I understand it, Maggies are pretty much "hand built". You don't need esoteric programs / procedures for 'Fred' to know that it's time to change his router bit or 'Barney' to know it's time to get a new soldering tip or 'Betty' to know she's about to run out of staples.
    
    I do think that Magnepan is perhaps a little too conservative. Yes, that philosophy has served them well in the past and I'm not suggesting radical big moves, but the world is changing very rapidly these days.
    
    I rather liked the idea someone posted about DIY "upgrade kits" being sold w/ DVD instructions. With Magnepans ability to buy in bulk vs. my need to buy 2 of something, they could probably sell to me for not a whole lot more than I would have to spend individually and still see a nice profit. I would benefit from having a "factory approved and tested" upgrade and it wouldn't be long before there would be extensive consumer reviews on the 'net for me to explore about the benefits.
    
    As to "factory installed options" I'm aware of the pitfalls and downside. But other speaker builders do it. In fact, Magnepan does it too. You have choices in sock color and trim ... why does the "option list" have to be restricted to the visual esthetic?
    - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 13:56:26 10/17/11 (0)
      I don't know, it's an interesting question. I suspect that in some cases at least the R&D investment, stocking, work flow complexities, etc. would add significantly to the cost of an option. The general rule of thumb in consumer electronics is that every dollar you spend on parts adds $4 or $5 to the retail cost of the product. But I'll ask Wendell.
    - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - DaveStL 11:34:26 10/17/11 (1)
      "Quality" is unfortunately an emotional issue. There are many definitions, including Crosby's (_Quality_Is_Free_) "conformance to requirements" which isn't as simplistic as it sounds. Some problems come about when customer and supplier don't agree on requirements; I think taping up mylar on a $5K speaker is unacceptable, but according to some accounts that is/was standard practice at Magnepan, and they hopefully have the data to show it doesn't significantly impair the sound or reduce longevity (but what _is_ significant, and how long should speakers last?).
      
      It's really all about money. What is the customer willing to pay, what effort is the supplier willing to expend, and what is the most efficient way to meet the supplied quality level? Throw in the ability of the customer to switch at will (no long-term supply contract) and things get murkier still.
      
      Preventing "defects" efficiently is always a good thing, and hand production processes can benefit from many best practices. But we don't need NASA quality here in terms of failure prevention, and some folks become so invested in defect prevention that they become inefficient; the cost of prevention _can_ be more than the benefit.
      
      I agree, though, I'd like more information on Magnepan's manufacturing (including quality) systems. And as frugal as those folks are, I suspect they'd be open to ideas that improve their customers' experience and lower Magnepan's total cost, if they weren't barraged with them and if the ideas were presented respectfully. That's an advantage of funneling things through a single representative like Josh.
      
      Dave
      --it's close enough for jazz...
      - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 14:12:28 10/17/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by DaveStL on October 17, 2011 at 11:34:26
        
        I think these are excellent questions. Taped Mylar may look bad, but do we know that it affects the longevity or sound? They take measurements, mabe listen to samples, watch return rates, and without that kind of information it's hard to know whether quality is being affected. About the only thing I know is that PG says on his site that the nicely-laid units sound better.
        
        I know that they addressed the delamination problem with an R&D effort that led to improved adhesives. As far as I know, that was the only problem that was affecting longevity besides ribbon fatigue, and of course the ribbons are designed to be replaced as needed.
    - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - pictureguy 10:37:07 10/17/11 (0)
      Magnepan is a very small company and I rather doubt they have the resources to go thru the aftermarket and pass on them. Just look at the vast choices in inductors, capacitors alone.
      
      As for quality...Well, if you have several people doing the same job, you adopt 'best practices' and make that the standard way. Specifications on HOW something is done are very important to passing knowledge and a training program of some sort confirms and documents its being done correctly. Have everyone do it their 'own way' is a recipe for disaster when bad product shows up at final test. Unless you can trace each panel thru the line? With worker ID #s attached to the paper or computer record?
      Best practices is a FREE upgrade at the factory and makes uniform quality. Fewer clunkers reach the dealer.
      Too much is never enough
  - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - pictureguy 15:03:24 10/16/11 (5)
    Done properly, 'quality is free'.
    I have an extensive background in manufacturing. I worked semiconductor manufacturing where start material....Silicon Wafers are over 100$ each, in 6" size. These are now considered small wafers. By the time a wafer reaches the end of the line, after undergoing hundreds of steps, to scrap a wafer at the probe step is a disaster. It can happen to a single wafer, but more likely in multiples of 25, where an entire 25 wafer cassette misses a step or process or is simply missprocessed. Imagine a high volume line which scraps maybe 7% of the line EACH week. Man, is that expensive in the extreme.
    I am very qualified in SPC....Statistical Process Control and am familiar with several production control software packages. I have 6S training and have written specifications for operators while doing training and qualification of same. I was a pioneer, at least at my company, with the addition of visual aids in specs in the form of photographs. The single page 'one point lesson' was also used to instruct and illustrate a single operation or part thereof.
    
    The idea of quality being free is simple. Do it right the first time and you will have little need for rework, which is expensive or inspection which only tells you when something is defective. If a line is running properly with trained operators and internal checks, rework should be minimal and each piece meet quality standards.
    
    Other line problems exist. Single point of failure, for example. You have a single machine thru which ALL your material must pass. Broken? Part'll take a week to get? You're screwed and either shut down the line or pile everything up in front of the broken machine while draining the back of the line. Not good.
    Other line problems include the opposite of a single point of failure. Having multiple machines to do a single process or job, while having only work enough to keep just over 1 machine busy. Having surplus, unused equipment around is expensive and a waste of floor space. The measure of this is something called OEE. Read the link to get an idea of Overall Equipment Effectiveness is related to TPM (Total Productive Maintenance) and they are used together to govern a manufacturing floor. When a machine is due for a PM, you DO THE PM, not run the tool until you produce scrap.
    
    Anyway, I'd love to listen to Wendell talk about the quality program of Magnepan. I'd love to see some charts and maybe sit in on a TPM or OEE meeting.
    
    We'll save 6S for later, 'cause that's a REAL can of worms.
    Too much is never enough
    - http://www.vorne.com/pdf/fast-guide-to-oee.pdf (Open in New Window)
    - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 18:46:51 10/16/11 (4)
      Well, Wendell wears many hats, we'll see if this is one of them!
      
      As I said, I have little manufacturing expertise myself, particularly at the level of a fab (though a surprising amount of what I did over the years required clean room conditions). But I sure agree with you regarding the importance of quality. When I was working in video post production, we spent a lot of time setting up PM schedules, training equipment operators, and designing efficient facilities with optimum signal quality. The amount of maintenance required in an old-line video facility was extraordinary. We had one technician who spent his entire day repairing just waveform monitors and vectorscopes, another guy who spent his entire day aligning cameras, telecines, and monitors, a guy who spent his day fixing 3/4" cassettes, several who spent their day maintaining VTR's (the old quads took 15 minutes per machine just to set up in the morning and needed new video heads every 200 hours, though in practice that was optimistic), etc. Fun weird stuff like aligning the upper head drum on a 1" VTR to within a micron by tapping it with the handle of a screwdriver (I kid you not).
      
      Now it's a lot easier, and not nearly as much fun.
      - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - pictureguy 23:52:47 10/16/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 16, 2011 at 18:46:51
        
        Did you ever do a gauge study?
        For example, you have a micrometer. You have 10 sample pieces. You have 3 operators measure each piece 3 times.
        Crunch the numbers.
        Result? How good is the gauge? Is is 'capable' of measuring your process?
        Stuff like that is part of quality.
        
        For electronics: Meters get cal'd on a regular basis. At final test for semiconductors, you have to run known samples on a regular basis to make sure of no drift in measuring tools.....called probers, which check each device for function and 'ink out' those not meeting spec.
        
        If your video heads needed replacement every 200 hours, PMs should be scheduled to 'lead' that time so the tool doesn't go down during use or produce poor quality.
        
        At Magnepan, for example, I'm guessing they go thru a fair amount of Mylar. Now, does Magnepan do an incoming inspection or do there suppliers send the right stuff...every time? Is there an 8d procedure for identifying supplier problems and getting the right stuff? I was part of several 8d efforts and can assure you, it is taken seriously by those who assign the 8d...usually those who received defective or marginal material and those who are responsible for FIXING it. DOES Magnepan have such a procedure in place for resolving systemic failure or problems?
        
        I know Magnepan is a very small company. I like the nice lady who answers the phone.....But, doe they have a dedicated quality program? Is there a training group?
        
        I have bunches of other questions.....but will refrain for now.
        
        BTW, Josh. A Micron? HUGE. I'm used to dealing with Angstroms, of which there are 10,000 in a micron. Thin films of 0.1 micron (1000 angstroms) were routine and I dealt with films down to well below 200 microns. This is why I stress gauge studies and knowing your metrology.
        Too much is never enough
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Disciplines_Problem_Solvi (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 19:55:24 10/17/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by pictureguy on October 16, 2011 at 23:52:47
        
        But you didn't have to adjust within an angstrom by tapping with a screwdriver. :-)
        
        We did routinely send waveform monitors, vectorscopes, and oscilloscopes to Tektronix for recalibration. And spent a lot of time calibrating stuff in house as well, not just the scopes but monitors.
        
        Quad VTR head assemblies were designed to be swapped rapidly when tip projection was too low or a head broke or went out of quadrature. This happened pretty frequently because the head wheel rotated at 14,400 RPM and it could certainly happen during a session, they weren't generally reliable enough to get to the 200 hours or even close. Each machine had to be aligned and checked by a technician in the morning, and adjusted by the tape operator when a new tape was mounted. The routine alignment process typically took about 15 minutes, a soup to nuts alignment much longer. Even when functioning properly, tape interchange was a problem because of changes in track geometry as the head wore. For that reason, masters were recorded with a head that was halfway through its life for maximum compatibility. And you still couldn't count on it working.
        
        All of this was necessary because when the first VTR's were introduced, there was no time base correction so they had to be able to produce a broadcast quality signal mechanically. Amazingly enough, before the development of digital editing, they would splice the videotapes by developing the tracks with an iron oxide solution and cutting and reassembling them under a microscope! The process was so touchy that an old timer who had been around then told me that when a spliced tape played successfully, everyone would cheer.
        
        When color was introduced, limited electronic time base correction made it possible to directly record color subcarrier. VTR's, like 3/4" or 1/2", didn't have the low time base error of a quad, so they had to heterodyne the subcarrier, making them unsuitable for broadcast use. But when digital time base correctors were developed, it was possible to upgrade 1" industrial machines to full broadcast quality, and they replaced the old quads. The 1" machines were much smaller, more reliable, and easier to maintain, though they still required a skilled engineering staff.
        
        But I know a lot more about that crap than making speakers, so the speaker questions will have to go to Wendell. :-)
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - pictureguy 21:13:19 10/17/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 17, 2011 at 19:55:24
        
        I don't know much about video OR speaker manufacture.
        What I DO know is procedure, specifications and manufacturing TO the spec. If the spec is wrong, get it changed. Changes in the line are managed thru some kind of form where the responsible parties sign off on it and it goes ONLINE as the new procedure of measurable. If training is required, some responsible party has to take the responsiblity and SIGN OFF the operator or whoever does the procedure being changed.
        
        Not to say I never did any wacky stuff. We had photgraphic steppers to put the image of the new layer on the silicon wafer. The wafer had been coated with 'photoresist' which is sensitive to UV light, and the room was illuminated in a yucky yellow. The reticle had tabs glued to it for alignment purposes. The alignment? within a few 10 of microns, but is self aligning within the mechanical / electrical limits of the stepper. The stepper, incidently, is built on a 20" thick slab of granite which is polished and finished to optical flat standards. Anyway, a reticle (kind of a glass negative) had one of these tabs snap off and no replacement was on site. Turnaround was probably a week.....way to long and the lot was waiting. Well, I was NOT a photo tech, but the boss tossed the whole thing at me and said to make it work. HA! I gave myself about 10:1 against, since I knew that it was a lot touchy. Long / Short? I took a razor blade and made a single pass on the tab and the glass. This got off all the old crazy glue. I put a drop on the darn thing and with my hand, clamped the tab back in place and it worked. Much to everyones vast surprise. I was not able to duplicate the fix, and nobody else was able either. The company ended up buying an alignment jig so anyone could do it.
        The lesson? While artifacts exist, nothing beats precision and repeatability. Those machines of yours, breaking down at odd times, needed a proper fix with first cause identified for the failure modes. In my line of work, a dead machine invariably resulted in EXPENSIVE scrap.
        
        I'd love to see Magnepan's facility and 'take the tour'. I'd love to make 'em an offer. I work cheap.....maybe a pair of 3.7s for 3 or 4 months work...... I'm now working on my 6S 'belts' and may even get to 'blackbelt' status, which would qualify me to go in and be of substantial help, while saving them some real bucks.
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 06:55:45 10/18/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by pictureguy on October 17, 2011 at 21:13:19
        
        Well, admittedly, we had sucky quads, the RCA's rather than Ampexes, which were much better machines. You haven't seen fun until you've seen a machine decide to dump a client's master onto the floor. RCA's broadcast division is a great example of a company that died because of poor quality. So for that matter is Ampex, in its later years. The Japanese, Sony, in particular, ended up taking over, even though the American companies had a significant edge in technology.
        But, in general, I think that the quads were limited by the technology of the time. Consider that you had a wheel spinning at 14,400 RPM on air bearings with four heads around it. A head would hit 2" magnetic tape moving laterally at 15 IPS and write 1/16 of a field of video. It had to dig into the surface of the tape by a precise amount and when the head rotated off the next head had to start writing the track in precise quadrature, or you'd get "banding" in the image -- it would seem to break into 16 segments (you used to see this sometimes on the air). You could also get minor changes in the phase of color subscarrier at the start of a quad band, called one-line error -- remember how sensitive NTSC color was to phase error? The color time base was corrected electronically but it couldn't correct all errors since its only reference was the brief color burst at the start of a line of video.
        The position of the tape and the rotation of the heads were controlled by servo mechanisms, which used a separate control track for course adjustment and then the sync signals in the video signal itself for fine adjustment. A vacuum guide insured that the tape had precisely the right tension around the spinning head wheel. And all of this had to be done to the timing standards of black and white television, despite the fact that you were recording on magnetic tape, a flexible medium that wasn't dimensionally stable. And the tape was open reel, running ideally in a controlled environment equipment area but realistically the environmental control wasn't that good, because the practicalities of a production environment didn't permit it.
        What's really amazing is that it worked at all.
        The ultimate solution to the cost and reliability issues was basic improvements in the technology. Quad VTR's cost $100,000, were the size of a refrigerator, required an army of technicians, three-phase power, a supply of compressed air, and climate control. Within a few decades, a child could make a high quality digital recording on a cassette the size of a matchbox. But you couldn't have done that when the quad was developed in the 1950's, and all they had was vacuum tubes. The engineers who developed it at Ampex (including a young Ray Dolby of Dolby Labs fame) were doing what had been considered impossible, and what no one else had been able to do, despite significant R&D efforts at RCA. The basic problem was that tape recorders could only record up to 15 kHz or so, but the bandwidth of video was 4.2 mHz! The innovations they came up with to solve the problem were remarkable, everything from the rotating head to FM recording to the nested loop servo system. When they showed the first quad at NAB, there was pandemonium.
        
        Edits: 10/18/11
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - The peleton 21:32:21 10/14/11 (13)
As long as Ive been a member, Ive found Josh to be knowledgeable, friendly, and supportive of all members and their posts. I certainly vote for Josh to be the rep to ask the right questions. If I may make a suggestion Josh. Dont get so star struck with magnepans womb that you loose objectivity, especially in terms of getting answers to the tough questions. I have had a handful of conversations with Wendall concerning what is holding Magnepan back from being in more homes. After getting through the technical side of your visit I recommend bringing this subject up and seeing if you guys can hash out some realistic ideas for marketing that can help get the word out so to speak. I personally and done with Maggies. I have moved into an all Acoustat environment, but my passion for Magnepan is still there.

My few questions for Wendall
1- super maggie -- the idea of making a model of Magnepan speakers for the top selling dealers that are made from the very best parts and promote the brand. Yes they would be expensive to make and sell but act as a promotional item such as the auto industry does

2- do-it-yourself modification kit -- many would love to see this...a kit with upgraded parts and a dvd showing how to install

3- get involved in a local movie theater -- replace their sound system with magnepan speakers as this could be a huge point of new revenue

4- modernize website and go viral -- someone needs to build a facebook, twitter account, update the website. If a potential buyer goes to the site and sees the outdated fashion on the models and the outdated look of the site they will automatically think the products technology is outdated too.

5- hire a pr firm? -- product placement in movies and tv, get the product to movie stars and other influential people, find other ways to create brand awareness

6- all american parts -- yes we are all proud that these are all built in the us and from parts made in the us, does that actually limit the end result? Im not suggesting fabrication in china but maybe theres better cheaper parts that can be had to bring the cost down in order to drive up the quality. example-if caps, crossovers, wire, foil, ect can be had for half the price and be twice as good (blind test) could the saving then be passed on to better frames, or larger surface area or whatever makes the product better.

7- finalize an official association with amp/pre amp maker -- as of now magnepan has a great relationship with an amp company, what if they take it to another level? could possibly leverage new customers from each others base. who doesnt want to see a magnepan amp?

only my thoughts - let the flames begin
http://followthepeleton.com
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 09:31:32 10/15/11 (0)
  Hi Peleton,
  
  Agree that that's a concern, and I think that's good advice. I do know as I imagine you do from talking to him that Wendell has his ear to the ground and is very interested in what people have to say. Also that he's forthright in explaining some of the challenges the company faces.
  
  I do imagine that there are some things he isn't going to tell us, like proprietary technical information or info on new products before the dealers are informed. But I can always nag. :-)
  
  BTW, didn't Jim Smith say that while he'd personally love to see it, there's no chance that Magnepan will make a super Maggie? I'll be glad to ask, though.
- More wishes.... - play-mate 03:31:15 10/15/11 (11)
  -let me just add an additional point :
  
  8. I�m sure there must be a more seamless way of turning, at least the bigger maggies, into "active" speakers; i.e. bypassing the internal XO without ripping off the socks.
  
  Maybe it�s too far fetched to wish for a specific electronic crossover yet, but I�m sure it could find some acceptance amongst serious audiophiles.
  
  kind regards
  cMP2 Computer: i3-540 Core cPlay039 >FIR filter w/ convolver> Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz throughout. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601�s ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
  - RE: More wishes.... - josh358 09:06:46 10/15/11 (0)
    I'm thinking that I'll go through this thread once it quiets down and make a list of the suggestions/questions. Also, people can email me. Or ask directly on the Planar Circle ask the factory thread, Steve will pass the question or suggestion on to Wendell.
  - Wrong company play - Dawnrazor 03:49:02 10/15/11 (9)
    Here is a blurb from Newform
    
    From now on, Newform Research will be shipping only upgraded main loudspeaker models so that connection to a fully digital system is just plug and play for the owner. We are completely convinced that it is only a matter of time before everyone converts to full digital systems. That is, digital crossovers and bi-amping (or tri-amping with subwoofers).
    
    Sure the site is dated at this point but IMHO they were the first ones I know of to embrace the digital amps and crossovers and most of all biamping.
    
    Sad that they still use cones for the bass...
    
    No one here remembers the bending of our minds
    - http://www.newformresearch.com/digital-systems-overview.htm (Open in New Window)
    - Turning full circle - neolith 06:30:54 10/15/11 (1)
      When the early Maggies first came out in the late 70's the larger models (Tympani's) were designed to be easily bi-amped and there was a pseudo affliation with ARC who designed an active XO for the speakers. The ability to biamp continued with the 20's and 3's up until the the 3.7's. One of the nice features of Maggies is that implementing biamping is relatively easy because of the pure resistive load. Magnepan should continue allowing the user to take advantage of that inherent feature.
      
      �
      "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Einstein
      - RE: Turning full circle - josh358 09:36:30 10/15/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Turning full circle posted by neolith on October 15, 2011 at 06:30:54
        
        Definitely something to ask about.
    - ??? - play-mate 04:28:06 10/15/11 (6)
      Hey dawnrazor,
      
      I was deliberately not touching the wide possibilities of digital implementation in my comment.
      Digital XOs are extremely competent under the condition that source material is digital already and only.
      For many, the analog playback is still somewhat the reference to which digital is measured, so a regular electronic crossover device tailored to a specific Magnepan model would definitely be of greater acceptance per se.
      
      How hard would it be, to equip the 1.7, 3.7 & 20.1 range with individual terminals for each driver, and thus circumventing the crossover ?
      -and second, developing an electronic "blackbox" to substitute the passive XO ?
      
      With a little imagination and determination, such a solution could be realized at a very sensible price point.
      I�m sure that Magnepan knows how much gain in quality an active driven setup does deliver on their speakers.
      
      kind regards
      
      cMP2 Computer: i3-540 Core cPlay039 >FIR filter w/ convolver> Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz throughout. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601�s ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
      - RE: ??? - hemholtz 06:07:16 10/15/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ??? posted by play-mate on October 15, 2011 at 04:28:06
        
        DEQX for original equipment manufacturers
        DEQX is committed to helping established loudspeaker and pre-amplifier/amplifier manufacturers
        provide true �High Definition� audio performance. At this time, only a small segment of the general
        public has ever experienced High Definition speakers, just as ten years ago, few people had
        seen HDTV.All that is about to change. The era of passive and uncorrected loudspeakers speakers will soon be
        as obsolete as monochrome television. The High-Definition �being there� experience is finally easy
        and inexpensive to achieve for manufacturers. More importantly, virtually all consumers can hear the
        benefits, as surely as they can see the benefits between SDTV and HDTV.Even the highest quality loudspeakers benefit from DEQX-HD�s active correction of individual drivers
        in both the time and frequency domain using DEQX�s low-latency FIR (Finite Impulse Response) processing
        
        in other words, they need to get together with DEQX and Bang & Olufsen. Both of those companies are working with oems that want to make revolutionary products.
        
        Edits: 10/15/11
        
        RE: ??? - play-mate 09:19:54 10/15/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ??? posted by hemholtz on October 15, 2011 at 06:07:16
        
        Dawnrazor : what is the prob ? :-)
        -I was only adding a point to "The peleton"s wish list....
        
        I am not so sure that Magnepan is that conservative though.
        
        -and thanks Hemholtz
        If you have a closer look at my own configuration, you will find out that I am exactly running my Maggies same way as DEQX : digital crossovers including FIR filtering.
        It is just "packaged" differently and is significantly cheaper !
        
        kind regards
        cMP2 Computer: i3-540 Core cPlay039 >FIR filter w/ convolver> Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz throughout. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601�s ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
        
        RE: ??? - hemholtz 06:52:54 10/16/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ??? posted by play-mate on October 15, 2011 at 09:19:54
        
        deqx and b & o can fit it all on a couple small circuit boards. they would fit in a box the size of the exernal crossover. i'm talking powered maggies with a mains power plug, spdif in, usb, and maybe a mic for the "deluxe room calibration package". for the price they could get for these they could probably throw in a netbook with all the software installed. i know deqx has a nice wizard type setup program for their stuff.
        by the way, the hdp express is under $2k now.
        
        Edits: 10/16/11
        
        RE: ??? - Satie 20:27:33 10/16/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ??? posted by hemholtz on October 16, 2011 at 06:52:54
        
        Yes, quality gear that can actually do the job is nearing my affordability level. I already can buy gear that can come close to doing the job with a few mods
        
        RE: ??? - Dawnrazor 11:53:42 10/15/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ??? posted by play-mate on October 15, 2011 at 09:19:54
        
        Hey Leif,
        
        Nothing personal. I was grumpy because I couldnt sleep and well Dawnrazor is a general thinker and the whole world seems to be unable to understand that sometimes. And then one of my favorite inmates gets all specific on me.
        
        Its not you, its me :)
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
      - RE: ??? - Dawnrazor 04:57:25 10/15/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ??? posted by play-mate on October 15, 2011 at 04:28:06
        
        Man,
        
        Once again my "general" thinking gets tripped up by most of the world that is so "specific" oriented.
        
        Who cares if it is digital or analog? The fact is that their speakers are set up for easy bi-amping. That is what you are asking for right?? Just unconnect the passives and connective some sort of active device.
        
        I agree that magnepan can do this if they want to. Newform has embraced it so certainly a first rate company like Magnepan could do this. I just dont think they do want to or that they see an upside.
        
        There is something to be said for an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality.
        
        Just a guess but since they grew up in the 70s (hey specific minded individuals here is another chance to waste time :)) they are probably so rooted in the old hifi industry of dealers and reps that it might not do anything but hurt their business to do that kind of thing. How many dealers even stock or can order crossovers?? How many can configure them? I am guessing that dealers are more their customers than tweakers, and those same dealers probably have their own lists of things to improve on. Just a wild guess but the top one has to be production and order fulfillment...
        
        Man I cant wait till the industry as a whole makes the move to the direct to customer model. Some are already there and they seem to be thriving. Emotiva, wyred, Odyssey, etc.
        
        OK speakers are tougher, but Magnepan does that with the mmgs, and now the minimags? They have to ship the speakers anyhow. maybe offer a white glove service where Jim Smith of "Get Better Sound" fame flies out and sets them up if you want it. Sad thing is that they are all at rmaf and will miss this awesome post :)
        
        Oh and I dont think magnepan thinks there are issues in how their speakers sound so even if they get the fact that biamping improves them I dont think they see a big need to improve anything right now but I could be wrong.
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
sure, why not... - bryan 20:13:37 10/14/11 (1)
I have no idea who josh is. And I don't own or have any interest in Maggies. But I support the idea of sending Josh to MN as long as I don't have to donate any money, because I'm saving up for another pair of LFT 8's :-) Just kidding. Your idea is a good, but I have to say, muggers (Mag owners) are a bit to cloying.
- RE: sure, why not... - josh358 10:35:53 10/15/11 (0)
  Who? Just some cloying guy. :-)
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Scottson 19:28:52 10/14/11 (1)
Personally, I think it would be really cool if we could somehow organize a MUG group trip to Magnepan - not only would I get the chance to tour the factory & talk Maggie with the folks who actually make them, I'd also get the chance to meet the folks behind those oh-so familiar monickers!
But realistically, the chance of that actually coming to pass ...? It's bad enough organizing 7 people out of the bar & on to the restaurant! I know I probably couldn't make for almost a year (I'm off to Paris!). So, in lieu of all us going - let's send Josh!
Josh, AFAIAC, I want you to get all the details on the Maggie tri-center set up - plus whatever other nifty product developments they have in the works!
Finally, can I just say, I think it's really cool that Magnepan are reaching out to our community like this. I know Wendell & the Magnepan folks have struggled with how to connect with "us" - with mixed results in the past - bringing us in to the development loop like this is a winner as far as I am concerned. Bravo Wendell!

Edits: 10/14/11 10/14/11
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 10:47:04 10/15/11 (0)
  A group trip would be fun, wouldn't it.
  
  I think having people hear the tri-center is high on Wendell's list of priorities, it's a new effect and the question that naturally arises is how do you familiarize people with it and popularize it to the point at which everyone can hear it. And personally, I'm darn curious about how it works (as I know they are too).
  
  One thing I doubt I'll hear is specific information on forthcoming products, since their policy is not to talk about them until they've announced them to their dealers. So if there's going to be a 20.2 next month, I doubt I'll hear about it. I wonder if they're also going to upgrade the MMG and the MG-12?
All for it! nt. - Dawnrazor 18:26:55 10/14/11 (0)
d

No one here remembers the bending of our minds
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - IEaudiodude 18:04:54 10/14/11 (1)
Josh if you see two rolls of foil laying around bring them back with you. Maybe they will give them to you as a souvenir ,look for the ones for my mids and my woofer ......hehehe
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 10:48:35 10/15/11 (0)
  LOL
  
  If I can fit them in the suitcase with the 20.1's, you know, the ones in perfect condition that were headed for the dumpster.
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - ejman 17:47:44 10/14/11 (1)
I like the idea of Josh being a representative. His input at this forum has always been both reasonable and well thought out - presented without going into the strident end of things. I would love to hear some behind the scenes stuff, how are speakers tested? when they designed the MMG for instance (The speaker I own) do they try it out with a $125 "100 watt" receiver as well as top of the line electronics? How do they decide on the balance of the speaker. For example, my MMG is brighter than my MGI IMP how did they arrive at a brighter(to me) presentation as being desirable?
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 10:54:33 10/15/11 (0)
  All interesting questions. I know that they've sometimes changed the balance of their speakers for various reasons, e.g., the manual for my IV-A's says that they changed from a flat response to a 1 dB/octave downslope because this sounded more realistic. I think a lot of us have noticed that the quasi ribbons are brighter than earlier models, though I understand the ribbon the 3.7 has been tamed. Also I know that when they designed the 3.7's they used the midbass response of the Tympanis as an ideal, and made changes in that region.
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - russ69 17:04:23 10/14/11 (0)
I'll go, and I'll buy Wendell dinner! I need a 20.1 demo anyway...

Edits: 10/14/11
Magnepan is quite successful as it is. Leave well enough alone. . . - Alan G. 16:28:42 10/14/11 (16)
They have been getting rave reviews for as far back as I can remember. We are consumers. We buy the product because we like its presentation. The company would be making a mistake getting this kind of input from part timers and those who are not part of a long term design team. In trying to incorporate what asylum members think the company needs to pursue, the speaker's sound could easily become colored. As Olive Oyl says "Leave well enough alone. HA!HA! Leave well enough Alone."
- RE: Magnepan is quite successful as it is. Leave well enough alone. . . - josh358 20:09:25 10/14/11 (0)
  Heh, I don't actually disagree. As Wendell himself put it in his open letter, they're tinkerers themselves and have tried most of what we have over the years, as well as some things we can't generally do, like design drivers from scratch. But I don't think we have to be concerned that we'll ruin the company, it's fun to bounce ideas off Wendell but usually he'll tell you right away why it can't be done -- too expensive, have bigger fish to fry right now, etc.
  
  At the same time, I don't have the impression that he's closed to ideas and opinions, far from it, he solicits them. Like any company, they're thinking about new products, marketing strategies, etc., and while I don't know much about marketing I do know that keeping your ear to the ground is part of a successful strategy, particularly when a new product is a significant departure from the old, e.g., the Mini Maggie or the tri-center.
- not why Wendell is (potentially) inviting him - wazoo 17:19:24 10/14/11 (14)
  Wendell wants to demonstrate to 'us' (through a representative) that which they have in the oven. One of the outstanding things about Magnepan is that they do involve individuals outside of their product development circle in the testing of their designs. They don't just puff themselves up and shout about what fantastic things they've done. Instead, they humbly seek confirmation that what they think is an improvement is actually perceived as such - they even conduct blind listening evaluations.
  
  Our little community stands to learn from such a visit. I think Josh would make a splendid ambassador because he will understand the technical aspects of what he will witness and he has the verbal skill to communicate that information to us. I also believe he has the character to be honest about his opinion - with Magnepan and with us.
  
  I really don't think Magnepan is desperately seeking direction from part timers. Then again, Josh isn't exactly a part timer; he's a professional.
  
  "Information is not knowledge.
  Knowledge is not wisdom.
  Wisdom is not truth.
  Truth is not beauty.
  Beauty is not love.
  Love is not music.
  Music is THE BEST." FZ
  - RE: not why Wendell is (potentially) inviting him - josh358 20:10:34 10/14/11 (0)
    Mostly retired professional (zzzzzzzzzz . . . ) :-)
  - RE: not why Wendell is (potentially) inviting him - Satie 19:23:25 10/14/11 (12)
    We all need to contribute our wonderful ideas to make the next effort as good as it can be. We really need to come up with the features for the $100K super maggie.
    
    Perhaps reinforced cast concrete frames poured at the owners home? Or a frame of heavy gauge steel damped with rubber and set up on an air bed for ease of movement in moving from a rooze setup back to normal.
    
    Perhaps this is the time to build the plasma line source?
    - RE: not why Wendell is (potentially) inviting him - pictureguy 09:16:39 10/18/11 (0)
      Replace mylar with Graphene.
      Too much is never enough
    - RE: not why Wendell is (potentially) inviting him - josh358 20:12:46 10/14/11 (10)
      Not to mention the $100,000 super mini maggie. Who was it who demonstrated that plasma speaker that used killowatts and filled the room with a lethal level of ozone? They could make a desktop version.
      - Didn't that project land Nelson Pass in the hospital? [NT] - wazoo 21:14:41 10/14/11 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: not why Wendell is (potentially) inviting him posted by josh358 on October 14, 2011 at 20:12:46
        
        .
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        RE: Didn't that project land Nelson Pass in the hospital? [NT] - josh358 10:09:29 10/15/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Didn't that project land Nelson Pass in the hospital? [NT] posted by wazoo on October 14, 2011 at 21:14:41
        
        Heh, didn't know that. That's a great story.
        
        Yep - Dawnrazor 05:07:56 10/15/11 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Didn't that project land Nelson Pass in the hospital? [NT] posted by wazoo on October 14, 2011 at 21:14:41
        
        Here is what he said about it:
        
        The "ion cloud loudspeaker" used photocopy
        machine ionizing nichrome wire strung in a flat
        array a bit like a window screen, but with more
        space between the wires, and charged to a variable
        DC potential of about 10 KV.
        
        This screen developed a layer of ionized air, and was
        enclosed between two stators, much like an electrostatic
        speaker, except that instead of a charged plastic diaphragm,
        you had a charged semi-flat layer of gas, and you could
        push-pull it with high AC voltages on the stators.
        
        It worked fairly well, and gave new meaning to the word
        "transparency".
        
        It also had several flaws, one of which did result in a
        trip to the local emergency room with breathing problems
        similar to those sometimes experienced by arc welders and
        caused by extended exposure to ozone.
        
        The Wall Street Journal printed my comment:
        
        "It was the perfect high end audio product: Exotic, inefficient,
        expensive, unavailable, and toxic."
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        
        http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/1841-pass-plasma-sp (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Yep - mmlrot1 05:55:15 10/15/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yep posted by Dawnrazor on October 15, 2011 at 05:07:56
        
        The Hill Plasma is king, but requires helium to prevent ozone. The Hill Plasma is the only
        plasma loudspeaker ever built that went down to 700 hz. To this day this plasma driver
        has never been equaled. There are other plasmas out there, but they only go down to 5000 hz, and do not require helium to prevent ozone. The sound is phenomenal, but refilling the
        tanks with helium is very expensive, not to mention the weight of the helium tanks and
        maintenance required for the plasma drivers. All the other drivers are true ribbons (Apogee)
        
        Is this your system, mmlrot1? - c1ferrari 15:54:45 10/16/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yep posted by mmlrot1 on October 15, 2011 at 05:55:15
        
        Or would you know how I can contact him or her?
        I can accept e-mail from members if you prefer.
        
        Thanks :-)
        Vbr,
        
        Sam
        
        RE: Yep - josh358 10:08:47 10/15/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yep posted by mmlrot1 on October 15, 2011 at 05:55:15
        
        Apparently, Hill says he could develop a full-range plasma if he had the resources.
        
        truth and distortion - wazoo 11:49:22 10/15/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yep posted by josh358 on October 15, 2011 at 10:08:47
        
        It is true that the process by which Hill's Plasmatronic generates the plasma field does not directly produce ozone. However, the interaction of that plasma field with the surrounding air will produce ozone. I imagine there is a point at which the energy it takes to produce bass frequencies will also result in dangerous ozone levels. Then again, I'm certainly no expert. Plasma is the ultimate 360 degree transducer as well as the ultimate low mass transducer. I sure would love to hear a pair.
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        RE: truth and distortion - josh358 12:23:08 10/15/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: truth and distortion posted by wazoo on October 15, 2011 at 11:49:22
        
        I wonder if it would be possible to filter and remove the ozone? After all, laser printers have ozone filters in them . . .
        
        RE: truth and distortion - mmlrot1 13:52:12 10/15/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: truth and distortion posted by josh358 on October 15, 2011 at 12:23:08
        
        Allan Hills first plasma loudspeaker (prototype that was never sold) went considerably
        lower in frequency, around 400 hz. Required considerably more power and also much
        more helium. This was just too impractical (cost would have been much higher.
        A speaker like this would be impossible to market today (way too many safety concerns; extremely
        high temperature of electrodes, high voltage, not to mention the danger to the eyes; like
        looking at a welding torch. The good old days are gone!
        
        RE: truth and distortion - josh358 15:46:26 10/15/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: truth and distortion posted by mmlrot1 on October 15, 2011 at 13:52:12
        
        I like the lava lamp!
        
        As cool as plasma technology is, I tend to think that the future belongs to true pistonic motion, feedback, and DSP. In principle, anyway, it should be possible to make a driver with inaudible distortion. I think also that we'll see matrices of drivers which are capable of reproducing the original sound field, perhaps integrated with a video display. Plasma technology doesn't lend itself to that.
Headline News: Josh selected by MUG for month-long internship at Magnepan - JBen 15:53:01 10/14/11 (1)
LOL At the rate we are piling up things for him to look into for us, he may have to spend the year!

I am still editing my list. Five pages is a bit long, maybe.
- RE: Headline News: Josh selected by MUG for month-long internship at Magnepan - josh358 10:20:57 10/15/11 (0)
  Don't forget the image recognizing cat detector with automatic cat repellant sprayer!
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - catfish 15:40:19 10/14/11 (0)
Seems like a win/win to me.
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - rw@cn 14:11:45 10/14/11 (0)
Sounds good to me.
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - IEaudiodude 14:08:26 10/14/11 (0)
I'll cast my vote for Josh ,I would say he is a very good choice IMHO
4th that. - grantv 14:06:55 10/14/11 (0)
And feel you're probably the best option for the reasons he noted. Go at it and let us know how it all went.
Yes! - wazoo 14:03:21 10/14/11 (0)
That sounds like a good idea to me and I trust your objectivity. I'd love to read your take on their multi-center setup as well as anything else they have up their sleeves. I think you'd make a great representative.

"Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST." FZ
RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 13:50:41 10/14/11 (31)
Sure sounds like a good idea.

I volunteer you to go to Magnepan and report all the things reviewers don't listen for. And set up all their models in the Rooze setup and report the results - oh and the winged double 3.7s. Need to try that.

We should really do a list of things for you to inquire about and listen to. I am sure many of us have their pet curiosities.
- RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 14:12:32 10/14/11 (30)
  That's a great idea. I'd be curious to know too if they've ever tried the Rooze setup. And how about whether they've considered using midrange ribbons, a la Apogee? I wonder how a kapton-backed midrange ribbon would compare to the push-pull quasi ribbon mid in the 20.1 (I assume it would only be practical in their most expensive model, since it has to be more expensive than using a common diaphragm and magnet assembly). Also, how about a kapton ribbon mid-tweet, using a .5 way only to the center conductor for great dispersion (no lateral offset between the mids and highs) and imaging?
  
  Edits: 10/14/11
  - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 15:36:03 10/14/11 (16)
    If you are up for it then I would certainly be interested in reading what you might have to say. I think that yourself and Satie would be naturals for this. I think Mart would be a good idea too.
    
    I would like to gain some insight into crossover application from both speaker level and line level perspectives. What if Magnepan offered a self powered versions of their speakers? Or perhaps a prebuilt electronic crossover? Would there still be a tendency to use asymmetric slopes or is there a better choice?
    - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 20:27:06 10/14/11 (15)
      Interesting questions. I did ask Wendell about the application of DSP at some point, and he said that right now they had bigger fish to fry, but he didn't rule it out as an eventuality.
      
      How would you fit an amp in a Maggie? Kind of a fun challenge, actually.
      - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 21:45:53 10/14/11 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 14, 2011 at 20:27:06
        
        "How would you fit an amp in a Maggie? Kind of a fun challenge, actually."
        
        I don't think you would want to build it into the panel. That would ruin the tried and true speaker carton that they use. It would just be an accessory like a 3.6 crossover chasis. Of course the real point to it would be the line level crossover accessory that is designed for that model of speaker. Perhaps with a DSP option for room correction like Wisdom. If there was an amp module offered then it might be some savy design that matches the electrical characteristics of the drivers.
        
        You know ... now that I see it ... maybe I didn't think that one through before I wrote it. I know I would seriously consider that option but what percentage of customers would want that nowdays to make it worth supporting? There used to be a simple passive line level crossover option for some of their earlier models. Still, it just seems to me that the logical updated version would include DSP / room correction like the Wisdom system that Wendel mentioned.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 10:17:50 10/15/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 14, 2011 at 21:45:53
        
        There's always the issue of price point -- the Wisdom stuff is excellent, but very expensive -- as well as the fact that many audiophiles are reluctant to put something digital in an all-analog signal path. But I'm a big believer in this, personally, and I wonder about the possibility of cooperating with a company like DEQX. The idea would be to a) make the drivers accessible without major surgery and b) get the right crossover characteristics, inverse transfer characteristic, and alignment algorithms suitable to dipole radiators into the DSP.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 18:11:45 10/15/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 15, 2011 at 10:17:50
        
        Yes it might be a non starter because of the price point that it would have to retail for. It would be a difficult fit for their pricing structure. Still, as the market evolves there may come a time where it is a reasonable option to consider. DSP is till evolving as has been the chipsets that support it. And perhaps more importantly has been the designers figuring out how to make it better.
        
        This is not going to appeal to the all analog aesthetic. I think that most of us understand that you can build a spectacular sounding rig this way. And with some of the underwhelming experiences most of us has had with the advent of digital it is esay to see why people feel this way. And not without reason. That being said I am intrigued by possibilities. It would be exciting to see some blurb from Magnepan about a cooperative with DEQX, Behringer or Meridian to support the next line of 1.x, 3.x & 20.x. Loudspeakers are still a weak link for distortion. But what if you can lower that by an order of magnitude with a well executed DSP engine? Could be interesting.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 15:25:41 10/16/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 15, 2011 at 18:11:45
        
        One of the questions I have is whether DSP can be as effective at controlling planars as it is at dynamics. In general, I'd expect it to be good at compensating systematic errors that can be fixed with an inverse transfer characteristic, but not chaotic behavior. So it could smooth the frequency response, but could it compensate for something like the nonlinearity of a single-ended magnet assembly, or would the chaotic behavior of the diaphragm make it impossible to know where it is? This is one area in which it seems to me that dynamics have an advantage over conventional planars, if you can keep the cones from breaking up.
        
        I toyed some years ago with schemes for local DSP with feedback, e.g., a big printed planar array speaker which would not only allow you to use feedback to control the diaphragm but would allow you to recreate the original sound field at the front of the room. Came up with an elegant way to do the feedback. But that's a huge project and I don't think it could hit a reasonable price point at the volumes of an audiophile product. A rigid planar woofer, though, e.g. carbon fiber with surround, might be more amenable.
        
        Anyway, we'll have to see what Wendell has to say about the practicalities of adding DSP. I think you've identified a bit problem -- the reluctance of audiophiles to put anything digital in the chain. Honestly, I can understand it. It isn't so much that conversion on an analog system can't be transparent -- in my experience it can be -- as that many implementations aren't, and how do you know?
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 15:10:11 10/18/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 16, 2011 at 15:25:41
        
        Chaotic behavior as in random flexing (resonance) of the diaphragm and frame? Sorry. Not a term I have come across. I would have nothing to say about that but inverse transfer function should work. You would know better than myself. I would imagine you would have to have a properly equiped speaker lab to pull it off. You might even be able to pull it off in the analog domain. Start with a high rez digital filter that models the trandfer function that is desired. Then input it to one side of a comparitor. Tune a circuit to minimize the difference on the other side of the comparitor till you get a difference of less than 70db or better. I bet you could do it if you find the right nonlinear bias point for a well chosen transistor or FET. The only reason that I mention that is for the devoted analog user. Just a passing thought. But it might appeal to someone who cannot stand the idea of digital processing. I have no problem with it though.
        
        From what I gather reading some conversations on diyAudio, digital domain processing is not standing still. Apparently there are new generations of DAC's available or being developed that are far better than anything used in current audiophile DAC's. What I am trying to figure out is how to get a handle on what the specs imply. Figures like 140 db signal to noise ratios are fairly common with some of this stuff. It's not like you cannot get some benefit from this from Redbook souces. I suppose I will have to educate myself on the landscape of available Hi-Rez digital. What I'm afraid of is the cost of accumulating titles that I actually want to listen to all over again.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 17:44:31 10/18/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 18, 2011 at 15:10:11
        
        There's apparently a paper on chaotic behavior in planar diaphragms -- seems it leads to the generation of subharmonics. Unfortunately, I haven't read it, just seen it mentioned somewhere or other, so I don't now the magnitude of the effect. But what with reflections from the edges of the diaphragm, I do know that you're going to have traveling waves, and these are going to affect the distance of the conductors to the magnets. Also, the diaphragm dishes. Some of this can presumably be incorporated into the transfer function, but even if you could accurately model the speaker you can only use a one-dimensional parameter, voltage, to control a two-dimensional surface. That's why I suspect that, in the absence of cone breakup, a dynamic driver is a better match for DSP -- you have only to control the motion of the voice coil to achieve ideal pistonic motion.
        
        Just speculation, of course. But I've seen some amazing measurements off self-powered speakers, Satie sent me a waterfall plot way back when that was beyond belief.
        
        I've found that redbook can really be surprisingly good. Years ago, I had a good converter at home and tried A/Bing some LP's with and without conversion on my 1-D's. I wasn't able to hear a difference. Of course, live recordings are more demanding than LP's and redbook can apparently be succesfully ABX'd when downconverted from 192/24, but I think the difference is subtle at best. I think it got a bad rap owing to the poor quality of early implementations and bad mixes. So curiously, the reason to get new 192/24 releases typically has more to do with the fact that more of them were mastered with audiophiles in mind than with the bit rate itself. (The effect of the bit depth is easy to calculate. 24 bits is needed for music of the widest dynamic range played at original levels. That immediately rules out most everything we do at home. But 16 probably isn't quite enough, home systems can generally do about 115 dB on peaks so you need about 125 dB of dynamic range.) In any case, I think you're right that advanced converters can help even with redbook, perhaps even more than with high def recordings, because the reconstruction filters have to be better. And spot on about the difficulty of interpreting measurements. There are some good ways to test, e.g., multiple passes through a A/D-D/A cycle. Some converters handle this with aplomb, you can do it 100 times and still can't hear any degradation. Others fail on the first attempt. The question is, which ones?
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 16:54:42 10/19/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 18, 2011 at 17:44:31
        
        Ah. That seems like what the term implies. I'm sure that I do not appreciate how much is 'wrong' in theory in comparison to a conventional dynamic driver. Much of what you try to accomplish in manufacturing the perfect cone or dome is discarded with planars. I certainly would not think that the single ended pole piece would work as well as it does. I would think that the nonlinear field would be obvious in the way that they sound. Shows how much I know.
        
        I've read some interesting observations as to what a self powered speaker may have to offer. Perhaps Magepan's would be marvelous candidates for this kind of arrangement. But it probably would not market very well. They have a business model that has kept them in business where so many others have faded away. Let's say they had offered this in a 3.7 special edition this time. And that it had succeeded spectacularly well with glorious reviews as to how it was worth every penny of the additional cost. I'm not so sure that it would end up being that big of a seller. Although their speakers are not exactly cheap they do offer reasonble value in the high end market. We have been opining for some time as to our various wish lists for our dream version of Magnepan. I do think it would be cool if you could have a software plug in correction algorithm though. Not that I would have a way to use it.
        
        I do not disagree with what a good redbook CD can offer. At this time all of my music is in this format and I seldom feel that I am lacking anything with it. Being the jaded gear junkie I still have nagging questions as to what it could have been. I think that most of us feel that the CD format could have been better refined before it was standardised. People that are far more knowledgeable than I name various figures for what could have been a transparent medium. To name one I think it was Bob Meridian(?) that said he felt that 56k at 18 bits would have been just about there. Is he right? I don't know. But I have become aware that signal processing has a lot to offer. We all know that you can't get resolution that isn't on the recording. But you can approximate with better accuracy than I would have guessed.
        
        Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. I'm still trying to get a better bead on how to look at things. It dawned on me for the first time that if you need to preserve signal integrity then you won't gain much benefit from a 125db source through a buffer with 85db S/N ratio. Not that it is the end of the story but it isn't likely be all that it could.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 17:39:47 10/19/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 19, 2011 at 16:54:42
        
        It's just a guess, but I suspect the reason single ended magnet assemblies work is that, since sound is logarithmic, the diaphragm is rarely undergoing large excursions. That would mean that the nonlinearity of the single-ended field would be apparently mostly at very high levels and during peaks, which does tend to correlate with what I remember of the push-pull 1-D tweeters -- that they didn't start to sound congested the way the MMG's tweeters do at high levels. But I could be hearing other effects as well, particularly the fact that the MMG's tweeter shares a diaphragm with the midwoofer so is subject to intermodulation effects -- a loud bass note will move the tweeter into the nonlinear range, and you can sometimes hear the bass muddying the treble.
        
        Agree about marketing. We audiophiles tend to be pretty set in our ways. I think it's easy to understand how that comes about -- I often find myself drawing on listening experiences that are over 30 years old.
        
        The year the CD was introduced, I started a big argument at an AES convention when I suggested that the bit depth and sampling rate were too low. :-) I think about half the audience ended up agreeing with me, the other half said hey, you have to be practical. In fact, the story as I've heard it has more to do with corporate shennanigans on the part of Philips than with technical limitations. Admittedly, this was from somebody at Sony. But 16 bits/96 dB was clearly not enough and there was plenty of data even then to tell us that. And not only was 44.1 kHz marginal, it was a difficult conversion from the already-established 48 kHz AES standard that was already being used in the studio. Today we can do it easily, but the early standards converters didn't sound very good. Fortunately, clever folk were able to ameliorate the 16 bit limit somewhat with noise shaping.
        
        One advantage analog buffers have is that, if they are noisy, the noise is generally of a pretty benign, random sort. Just hiss. Whereas if you listen to a dithered low-level audio signal, it's very rough sounding. And if you eliminate the dither, you lose ambiance and spatial cues. So while, ideally, analog stages wouldn't raise the noise floor of the digital signal, I don't think analog noise is as offensive. Otherwise, we wouldn't be as tolerant of tape hiss as we are.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - The peleton 03:37:54 10/15/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 14, 2011 at 21:45:53
        
        I wasnt suggesting putting an amp on the speaker - I was thinking of a bryston magnepan active crossover good parts amp pre amp goodness - which would translate to all you need...especially if the magnepan speaker could go low enough to not need a sub
        http://followthepeleton.com
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 00:17:06 10/15/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 14, 2011 at 21:45:53
        
        That would be like Emerald physic's dipole dynamic speakers with their modified behringer and the custom settings in it.
        
        It works for them.
        
        But we had that early on with the early Tympani models being sold with ARC crossover and amplification.
        
        These days the dealer would be expected to put that together. Or you would need a daft proof product that the user does not need to adjust after the dealer sets it up.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 18:50:21 10/15/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 15, 2011 at 00:17:06
        
        Yes it would be a Magnepan version of that. Perhaps more.
        
        I remember the optional 1st order line level attenuators they made for their Tympani's. There is likely a reason they discontinued those. Probably for the same reason that multi-amping speakers is seldom used anymore. Not exactly plug and play and all too easy to damage something from a simple mistake. Not that I would ever do something like that ... as far as anyone knows.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 22:51:53 10/16/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 15, 2011 at 18:50:21
        
        So you are not telling...
        
        DIY audio was not much of a go since 70s when boomers started having kids so today's audiophile is very finicky and when they pay a gazmillion bucks for a "value" audio setup they don't want to learn any acoustics, electronics, or even geometry. And they don't want to spend time tweaking. If they need a tweak it would have to be ham hand proof.
        
        Besides, boomers are not finding it as easy as it used to be to take out the old solder iron and trying to solder wires and components that seem to never find focus in the graduated multifocal glasses.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 15:31:13 10/18/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 16, 2011 at 22:51:53
        
        OK, I will volunteer one boneheaded move that I made ... Like getting the feed to the drivers reversed. I was mortified when I realized that I was driving the ribbon with the mid-bass amp. It didn't hurt anything but there was a bit of pucker factor there for a minute.
        
        I try to observe the double check axion on such things but didn't catch that one.
        
        You are right, of couse, on your observation on the DIY audio culture. Personally I think it is far more interesting than just throwing money at a rig. Once you start getting some insights into the physics of audio it just keeps getting more interesting. I might not be able to build an F5 with the same distortion figures as First Watt but there is something more satisfying in the exercise. Still working on that one. And it is rather annoying that I cannot focus like I once did. I rarely appreciate being near sighted as opposed to far sighted but for populating or altering circuit boards. I find that to be highly relaxing and enjoyable. And surprising that the alterations work more often than not.
        
        BTW, you were right about the OPA(x)134 op-amps. There were better options available.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 12:14:25 10/19/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by emsquare on October 18, 2011 at 15:31:13
        
        Not that I haven't done similar errors, but I do try to be careful. First thing is to start everything from the minimum volume setting at the pre. you are likely to figure out what is going wrong before you blew anything.
        
        That is the point, the audiophile has music listening and component listening as his hobby, he does not need to piggyback the DIY hobby and the science/engineering behind audio. Those are separate hobbies that are far more time consuming and don't provide you with more music per hour.
        
        So what did you use instead of the x134 op amps?
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - emsquare 15:44:03 10/19/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 19, 2011 at 12:14:25
        
        "First thing is to start everything from the minimum volume setting at the pre. you are likely to figure out what is going wrong before you blew anything."
        Yessir. That's how I caught it. I peg the balance control to one side and slowly bring up the volume to the bass driver to verify. I was puzzled for a bit until I realized what was up. I think I will just say that I was preconditioning the ribbon for maximum joy. Ya... That's the ticket!
        "That is the point, the audiophile has music listening and component listening as his hobby, he does not need to piggyback the DIY hobby and the science/engineering behind audio. Those are separate hobbies that are far more time consuming and don't provide you with more music per hour."
        And this is fine. Not all things are going to appeal to any given audiophile. If it isn't bringing some joy to your life the what's the point? All too easily can I obsess about the system over what I have it for. I gather a number of ideas from comunities like this that would never have occurred to me otherwise. I hold your Neo-8 array as a highly worthy avenue to explore. It just sounds like fun. I was holding out for them to update their Radia drivers and they have introduced the RadiaPro versions. These use the Kaladex material like the Neo's but aren't quite comparable in performance. At least as far as I know.
        As far as the opamps... I really like the LM4562 in the buffer stages and am still using the OPA2134's for the filter stages. I prefer this subjectively to using the LM4562 for everything. I have an interest in trying the current source version of that family but am not sure that the circuit is compatible yet. The Marchand has been the most responsive to modification so far of the electronics that I have. Still, that bring a series of 8 opamps per channel into the chain. Not exactly the elegant minimilist answer that I would like but I have to have something for now.
        
        Edits: 10/19/11
  - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 15:00:38 10/14/11 (12)
    All good ideas to ask about, but for the center trace QR mid or tweeter idea, which really can't be done because of the tensioning buttons disrupting vertical uniformity and the fact that if you did that without the buttons you would be placing the mid or tweeter at the center - where you would maximize IMD. Wisdom essentially has 3 different drivers.
    - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 20:37:45 10/14/11 (11)
      Didn't some OEM mfrs modify the BG line sources to do that? I'd expect IM to be a concern, but we aren't dealing with bass frequencies so its geometrically less of a problem than it would be if you tried doing that with a woofer, and, really, we already know that a single driver can satisfactorily cover a broad range -- e.g., the BG's -- so we'd only be adding in a single octave.
      
      The Wisdom approach is another possibility, albeit a pricey one and one that sacrifices the advantages (and loses the disadvantages) of a ribbon and could have interference/power response problems around the crossover point. So is the Quad delay approach using multiple amplifiers, but that opens a new can of worms.
      - RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 23:43:11 10/14/11 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 14, 2011 at 20:37:45
        
        Actually, they got PDR drivers. Those are damped physically to prevent the outer portion of the diaphragm from emmitting the higher frequencies (they are produced but are absorbed). That reduces sensitivity and thermal dissipation and thus power handling but keeps the broad driver from canceling the high frequencies. Not really the same execution but gets results.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 10:34:49 10/15/11 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 14, 2011 at 23:43:11
        
        I was thinking of some companies that use modified RD drivers. I gather that they use the center trace(s) in much the same way that Magnepan uses the outermost traces on the 1.7 tweeter. It's presumably a more expensive solution than the PDR since it requires crossover components and extra wiring, but AFAIK it will produce better results, without the tradeoffs inherent in the PDR damping/tapering approach.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 03:00:00 10/16/11 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 15, 2011 at 10:34:49
        
        It would be great to have that work, but I don't think you can overcome the IMD that a shared diaphragm would produce. However, you can obtain a timing benefit since the origin or wavelaunch are identical in both ranges. That always seems to be a problem in manufacturing that a concentric line source sharing the diaphragm will solve. So I don't really know how far the tradeoff of timing and IMD would put you ahead.
        
        Actually, I am sure that magnepan tried this out at some point. I am guessing that it was put away in favor of keeping the tuning buttons in their symmetrical positions and putting the HF traces at the edge.
        
        This is like the ribbon Tympani, where putting the mid/tweeter panels in the middle ends up losing baffle gain in the midbass panel.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 12:09:09 10/16/11 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 16, 2011 at 03:00:00
        
        I know that they put the tweeters on the edge at least in part because the amplitude of the vibrations is lower there, it's in one of the patents. So less IM. But I'm not thinking in terms of bass, which causes IM problems even with the tweeters on the side, but rather combining mids and tweeters.
        
        If IM were a problem, it could be minimized by using an overlapping frequency range approach. The center could even be clamped off to further reduce IM, as the midrange is in the better Maggies. Though not of course in a kapton-backed ribbon.
        
        I guess you would lose some effective baffle size with the mid/tweet panel in the middle, wouldn't you. Never thought about that. I've assumed it wasn't done because of lobing and modulation of the ribbon tweeter.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 17:04:48 10/16/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 16, 2011 at 12:09:09
        
        Are you sure there would be a lobing problem from the center position? I see it with a concave setup but not if it is flat or slightly convex.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 19:12:23 10/16/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 16, 2011 at 17:04:48
        
        I'm thinking that the woofer panels would be too far apart, we're getting to about a wavelength separation a bit above the crossover point, at about 500 Hz. So you're going to get interference between the woofers which will cause lobing error. This is a known issue with D'Apollito-type configurations:
        http://www.birotechnology.com/articles/VSTWLA.html
        Also, the midrange driver will be located asymmetrically wrt to the woofers. I assume you'd have everything equidistant from the listener, but I imagine that will make the lobing somewhat asymmetrical.
        The question is, how audible would this be? It would really depend I think on the first and second backwave reflections more than anything else, and that would depend on placement and room geometry as well as speaker geometry and crossover slopes, plus the characteristics of the drivers themselves. So I'm not sure what it would do to the sound, I think you'd have to model it or try it to know. You might be able to tame the effect if necessary with diffusion at the reflection points.
        
        Edits: 10/16/11
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 22:29:17 10/16/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 16, 2011 at 19:12:23
        
        I have the XO at <300 hz so I calculated it as a marginal effect, besides, despite the lobing the d'appolito design works very well.
        
        There should not be that big a deal on the mid's offset - and if it is, you can widen the placement to return it to symmetry.
        
        There were a few flat and centered mods to Tympani posted here in the early 2000's and I got the impression that it worked fine without any problems that were not common to the stock speaker as well.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 06:40:39 10/17/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 16, 2011 at 22:29:17
        
        Well, the standard D'Apollito implementation does space the drivers as tightly as possible. They also usually use the 4th order L-R, which has a pretty broad central lobe. And the axial lobes are symmetrical and vertical.
        
        Of course, you have lobing with the standard Tympani configuration, too, and it's going to have axis tilt. But didn't you say that you had trouble crossing the ribbon high up because of the separation between the ribbon and mid? With a crossover of 300 you're going to have significant output at frequencies at which separation is greater than wavelength.
        
        Didn't know people had tried a centered configuration. My main question was always about low frequency acoustical modulation of the ribbon tweeter and whether it wouldn't cause Doppler distortion or even failure. I don't think you could just take the mid and tweeter, put them next to one another, and remove all the space, although it would be great if you could. But I'm just speculating here, there has to be a reason why they separate the ribbon tweeters as they do -- from the perspective of blending and crossover design, you'd want them to be as close together as possible.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - Satie 11:46:55 10/17/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by josh358 on October 17, 2011 at 06:40:39
        
        Yes, the high freq is a problem because of the small wavelength at 9-10khz and the narrow beam from the mids at that area. the combo provides comb filtering as you move your head - true head in a vice. Only works at LR4 - but that kills transients and adds gain stages to the XO.
        
        Essentially, the difference in ear to driver distances should not excede the XO wavelength so that a normal head movement of +-5" should result in a change of less than 1/2 wavelength and preferably less than 1/4 in the difference of ear to driver distance from one extreme to the other - in the tympani that would be at a 10 ft listening distance roughly 10" * 8"/120" = 0.7" which is 13500/(0.7*2) about 10khz for the 1/2 wavelength criterion - ended up too close for me, and 13500/(0.7*4) = 5khz for the 1/4 wave criterion - where you can not go from positive to negative reinforcement by moving your head in a 10" range - that did work in my setup.
        
        Taking Fc on mid LP to 4-5 khz while keeping Fc for ribbon HP at 9+ khz - XO about 6khz solved the problem because head movements have much less of an effect with the much broader mid beam in that freq range to 6khz.
        
        I think the holes in the Tympani around the tweeter are supposed to prevent both bass induced damage and reduce doppler effects since there should be cancellation at that point so less (if not insignificant) of a doppler effect from the bass wave.
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - TitaniumTroy 23:07:42 10/17/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by Satie on October 17, 2011 at 11:46:55
        
        Josh, get's my vote to rep for the forum. I would definitely give more weight to his opinion than professional reviewers. Who have various conflicts of interest.
        
        I would like him to report on the 3.7's, the Tri-Center concept, the Mini Maggies, CCR and center channel woofer, and anything else Magnepan can come up with.
        
        Josh, I am curious does Magnepan have any conventional speakers on site to compare against. If so what brands and models?
        
        RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? - josh358 18:05:39 10/18/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Should we send a "representative" to Magnepan? posted by TitaniumTroy on October 17, 2011 at 23:07:42
        
        That's an interesting question.

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