Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

Planar speakers that can do rock !!!

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Hello All,
I am looking to upgrade from my Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE. I am looking at Electrostatic speakers mainly because whatever limited exposure I have had with them in past, its all been very positive. I have heard the Maggies and Cadence. The amazing thing about them is their trueness to instrument tones and voices. However I am yet to hear a electrostat doing rock well. I dont listen to hard rock or heavy metal but I listen to Floyd, Straits, Zeppelin, REM kind stuff. Mostly Bluegrass, Classic Rock, Blues, Acoustic Country music etc. But even these seem to be not all that friendly with electrostats. Would love to get some inputs from you guys.
I am also looking at Harbeth and Spendors as they have similar reputation of being true to voices and tones.

My budget is $5000.
My room size is 14ft * 14ft (thats not a big room).

Please suggest.

regards.

Follow Ups:

RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - don4@charter.net 06:38:43 08/27/09 (0)
I can not speak for the newer maggies as I have a pair of MGIIc's, but I would imagine they would only be better.
I have read many posts talking about how maggies do not do rock well.
I disagree
At least on mine, if you have an amp capable of some decent power, they will rock better then my Pioneer HPM-150.
My first test on the rock side was CSNY 4 Way Street. If you have never heard it, I highly recommend the live version of Southern Man, about 14 minutes of pure jam, one of my all time favorites.
I cranked it up pretty loud and it was absolutely amazing.
Zeppelin - same. Alvin Lee - ditto
I will say that the louder it played, the better it sounded.
My opinion, which is usually wrong, is maybe one reason some say they do not rock well is that they do not have a big enough high current amp to drive them. I know my meters are not accurate, but I sit here and just watch them suck up the current like a baby suckling milk.
I like my rock a little loud. When playing it, normal level is around 45-50wpc (meter wise which I know is not accurate). But while the meters are playing that continuously,but on deep bass notes, I sit here and watch the meters peak at up to 200wpc.
They are temporarily in a smaller back bedroom while remodeling. In a larger listening room, the power requirements are obviously going up.
Now if I had a 100wpc amp and put on some rock and cranked it, I will probably walk away thinking these speakers do not do rock very well.
I use a restored Pioneer Spec 2 (250wpc 8 ohms) so I do not walk away thinking that.
and I do not even have a subwoofer yet.
Most of the time I do not even miss the lower bass as they still do bass pretty well if you have the juice to give it to you. On some songs I do wish it would go a little lower(i.e. start of Speak to me on DSOM) but that just has me looking for a sub, not a new speaker.
The Pioneer HPM-150 (one with the glass super tweeter) is pretty well regarded as a rock speaker. I have them hooked up also as my B speakers.
When I put on the classic rock, I know I very rarely switch to the Pioneers. Actually, the only time I really do is if I am playing at low volumes so I do not disturb the wife. They do sound better at low volumes. The maggies want the juice, but the more I give them, the better they sound.
So, my opinion, if you have a high current amp, maggies will rock just fine (at least the MGIIc does), but my opinion, a minimum of 300wpc is the price of admission(into 4 ohms) if you like your rock loud.
I am anything but an expert and this is just from my own observations.
(one note - while 45-50wpc continuous may seem extremely loud on a normal speaker, you must remember that , on the MGII anyway, it is rated at (I believe) 84db at 2 watts - which is anywhere from 10-20(klipsch) db less then most other speakers with twice the power. On the HPM-150, I do not get anywhere near that as those are 93db at 1 watt)
while waiting for the remodel - they are currently residing in a bedroom that is only about 11x14 - they do dominate the room but I was surprised they still sounded so good)

Edits: 08/27/09 08/27/09
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - sogood 08:15:00 07/11/09 (0)
The VMPS are a good suggestion in your small room....you can place them very close to the wall if need be, and still get very good sound. I've owned VMPS speakers and subs for years, and have listened to all the newer models at my local dealer....nice hybrid sound with good blend between the cone woofers and the panels.

I own a couple pair of Apogees (MiniGrands and Duetta Signatures). They do rock very well, the Duettas are the best of the two for rock music (27hz).

That said, the Apogees IMHO will not sound good in a room that square, and that small....I'd try a hybrid of some sort to be honest.
Consider VMPS Super Tower III - Satie 10:56:45 07/03/09 (1)
I think that for rock, you need to either fully trick out large Maggies 3.x or a used Tympani or 20, and you would still need a good subwoofer, a used large Apogee could do it without the subwoofer, or a hybrid used Apogee or LFT VIII. I doubt the LFT VIII will do quite what you are after without a subwoofer.
Recently, VMPS who are very much into full scale dynamics put out two open baffle (unboxed) hybrid planar models where the woofers are boxed but the mid is open. The VR60 which is outside your budget and the Super Tower III special ribbon edition.
This one follows the GR Research design with a ribbon tweeter. The tweeter is boxed, so you do not have the benefit (or problem) of the backwave, but since it operates only over 6 kHz it would only play overtones, so you may not find anything missing.
The planar magnetic push pull midrange is open backed and should give you what you want in highly dynamic and strong transient reproduction in a way that maggies outside of the 20.1 can't do.
This is probably your ticket, unless you insist on a planar bass.
I have heard large VMPS speakers with "ribbon" mids in an even smaller room than yours and they were fabulous, though you would not mistake the tight dynamic bass for planar bass.
If you must have the planar bass, only used MG 20.xs and Tympani and large Apogees (Full Range, Diva, Scintilla) or original Carver Amazing will do the job.
This is what I was facing, so I bought a Tympani. I replaced my Tympani midrange with a push pull driver for the improved resolution and greater dynamic snap. The Bohlender Graebener RD50 (available at parts express) is an electrical and acoustic "drop in" substitute for the Tympani midrange. It requires minimal alteration and is a superior midrange driver, it is used in some super high end speakers from Genesis etc.. Then I took it a step further with triamping and a line level active crossover.
- http://www.vmpsaudio.com/ST3.htm (Open in New Window)
Edits: 07/03/09
- RE: Consider VMPS Super Tower III - John A. Casler 15:57:53 07/06/09 (0)
  Actually the RM40 or RM30 would be the best model for your application and price range. The STIII is special order only but is out of that price range. (I am a VMPS dealer)
  
  While that is a small room, either will fit quite well. They "are not" dipoles which would certainly be challenging in a room that size, so their placement is much easier.
  
  I have a pair in a 13' by 15' room that are totally amazing.
  - http://www.summitaudiovideo.com (Open in New Window)
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - Steelhead 01:05:16 07/02/09 (0)
They are at the top of your projected budget but if you have the chance give a listen to Martin Logan Summits.

They are capable of higher spl's without compression and bass power and weight that provides the foundation of most rock music. They do this while still possessing all the stat's virtues.

I always kind of internally laughed at the idea of stats and rock after owning classic jbl studio monitors and listening to numerous klispch, altecs, and tad horn systems, but the Summit's truly can do justice to rock.

Have Fun.
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - wineslob 07:16:40 07/01/09 (0)
Apogee MiniGrands might fit the bill with the built-in subs they have. I would mention Studio Grands, but they seem to be far too rare.

Donno about the Scintillas, to my ear the bass is on the "soft" side, but it is deep.
Duettas (I have II's) have more "slam" but don't reach as deep. Mine can do Metallica pretty well.
Eminent Technology Vlll/Bs - Mr_bill2 13:18:44 06/30/09 (3)
Mine rock!

Matched up with good hi-power amplification these full range guys(25 Hz-50 kHz ±4 dB) really rock and no sub required.

Plenty of good reviews online if you can't get a listen for yourself.

A little over $2k so plenty of budget left over for other improvements.
- RE: Eminent Technology LFT-3 - Satie 15:47:21 07/01/09 (0)
  The III with a subwoofer - no longer made, shows up occasionally on Audiogon and ebay
  
  but was grand for rock so long as you cut it off at 40-50 hz and use a subwoofer.
  
  The large Apogees work too, Full range, Diva, Scintilla, and the large "Grand" hybrids. These, however, might overwhelm your room.
- Count me in for these too - fin1bxn@msn.com 10:05:14 07/01/09 (0)
  I had the LFT 8a, was able to buy them for under 1000 used. They need High power/ current amps. I also owned MMG, MG3a and MG3.6
- I second the Vlll/Bs - DirtAuger 15:08:36 06/30/09 (0)
  Yup, they rock!
  I have had mine a little over a month and absolutely no buyer’s remorse.
  They replaced Thiel 2 2s and are better in every way.
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - jtucker 11:47:08 06/30/09 (0)
I owned MG12s w/ REL sub in a similar sized room (14x18). I found they coulc just not energize the room when dealing with rock. Sounded pretty awesome with small scale jazz and vocals, but could not replicate full scale symphony and rock though. i had some other issues besides that that caused me to move on. I have not personally heard the 1.6s outside of a dealer showroom, but I think they might fill in what the 12s (and MMGs) are lacking especially with a a good sub (or two) and those can be had at a very reasonable price. There are many, many satisified owners of the 1.6s out there so it seems like that would be a very safe choice I ended up with some vintage Infinity IRS Gamma (these will likely be extermely hard to find though). Much more room freindly than some other options. Planar dipole down to 125 Hz, 4 x 12 in servo controlled base supposedly good down to 15 Hz. I kind of doubt that, but make no mistake if you have enough amplification these WILL rock. Symphonic is excellent. Spent many hours recently listening to live brodcasts of the Van Cliburn competion.

Don't frequent this forum too often any more but just my $0.02

Jtucker
depends - drkielbasa 06:32:34 06/30/09 (0)
I don't care to classify a speaker as a good "rock" speaker, or a good "classical" speaker etc. Either a system in a room is true to the source or it isn't. Early Zeppelin recordings don't pack a whollup with Maggies because it isn't in the recording to begin with. All decent modern speakers are capable of reproducing a dynamic and extended frequency range when properly setup and driven in a decent room.

MMG and higher models in the Magnepan line can give you what you are looking for if setup properly and well driven. I will say that for the most part, the Maggie line is a bit on the sweet and polite side, but still fully capable of some chest pounding dynamics. What is required is a good size room (14x14 limits you to MG1.6's as the largest model I would recommend). A high quality power amp capable of driving low impedance loads. Proper room placement with the speakers vertical and in a true dipole arrangement with speakers in an equilateral triangle pointed at your ears. Also a pair of subwoofers usually works better than a single in this arrangement. Let the planars run full range and blend in the subs at a very low crossover point with a sharp cutoff slope. It may take a lot of experimentation to get the subwoofer placement dialed in, or, possibly require some outboard processing (delay, phase, eq, etc) of the subwoofer signal. For 90% off my listening, I just leave the subwoofer system off entirely.

The sweet spot for proper imaging and bass punch will be very small. Stray just a few inches from that point and much will be lost. But in that spot and you will be rewarded. Unlike cabinet speakers, the bass response of planars is still directional, and you need to be placed at the intersection of the two panels to get full bass impact. Upgrading the crossover and wiring helps a bit in this regard as will framing or stand upgrades.

Some of my favorite recordings on maggies are by Dire Straits, Floyd, Bela Fleck, Nickel Creek, large classical works and more. I will admit that some of the Stones and Zeppelin recordings come off flat sounding, but the speakers that those recordings sound good on usually sound like dreck with recordings I've listed.

I've had a few folks listen to my MG1.6 setup and comment that they'd like to hear them with the subs turned off, only to find out that they weren't on in the first place. I use no sound processing equipment (eq's etc) between the source and the Mg1.6's.

This can easily all be done under $5k.
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - Anji12305 05:38:43 06/30/09 (3)
Quad ESL63s are pretty lively, and not too much money.
The updated version, model 989 would fit into your room, and probably give you some fairly high sound pressure levels.

Be advised that most modern ESLs have current limiters that will keep the diaphragm from touching the stator elements (which can cause instantaneous failure and bad smells when the smoke gets out)... and this may limit your satisfaction. Quad also makes a killer amp that is under appreciated, designed to handle the squirrelly load electrostats present.

Quad model 909.

That being said, I've recently experimented with older Definitive Technology speakers, which are dipoles. The BP-10 is a sleeper.

Wonderful soundstaging, tremendous dynamic response and good musical fidelity (not the last word in detail or imaging). They also play DEEP.
- http://www.audioxsell.com/classified/461901/Quad-ESL-989.htm (Open in New Window)
- RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - phi70 00:16:34 08/26/09 (0)
  Careful about the 989 when doing rock. The protection circuit kicks in and turns the speaker into a 0 ohm dead SHORT when hit with a transient (high frequency transients actually triggers it more often than bass slam based on my experience).
  Also check the input coupling cap if you can when buying older units.
  Mine (220uF) recently measured a nifty 5uF (deterioration? failure?)
- RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - Kiefer74.1 09:55:48 07/01/09 (1)
  Have apair of BP10's.
  
  They're pretty colored sounding in stock form, but they can be easily modded & the original drivers are inexpensive. they can definitely rock without a sub. I wouldn't use them for critical listening, but they must serve some purpose since I've had 'em since '94 and change my mind every time I think of parting with them ;)
  - BP10 mods? - Anji12305 10:59:52 07/01/09 (0)
    Please elaborate on the modifications.
    
    I put a felt ring around the front tweeter, but haven't touched the xover.
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - Thor 04:12:39 06/30/09 (0)
Hi Plinius,
my experience mirrors yours in that electrostats (in general, there are exceptions - although far beyond your budget) simply don't offer the macrodynamics, weight and heft needed for rock n roll.
I've also auditioned several versions of Martin Logan hybrid offerings, and never found them to work well, the woofer and panel sounded separate, instead of blending together as one integrated unit. It seems you get the worst of both worlds with them :-(.
That's one of the reasons I ended up with Maggies, I found much of the transparency and microdynamic detail, but with more body and punch as compared to 'stats.
Your room is small, so I would guess that you don't need a very high SPL to load it beyond comfortable listening levels. In that case I would recommend 1.6QR's with a good sub (REL, Velodyne, Hsu, JL Audio fathom are pretty much all good matches).
If you don't see yourself staying in that room for many more years to come, I would seriously consider 3.6Rs instead, and the sub becomes optional. A lot of rock records don't extend beyond what the 3.6R can handle comfortably (35-40Hz). Maggies do not need lots of space behind them as many people keep saying, unless your walls are made of concrete or brick. If you have wood, sheetrock or plaster, much of the lower frequency energy will go through the walls (to the appreciation of your neighbor!), while you should have some absorption/trapping for the rear (i.e. out of phase) mid to high frequencies.
You will need a beefy amp, I'm currently using a bel canto eVo4 in bridged mode with 3.6Rs, and they work very well together.
Weezers latest album (the red one), AC/DC Back in Black Ted Jensen remaster, as well as classic Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith on vinyl all sound huge on this system, yet accurate. So does Telarc and DG classics, as well as Blue Note vinyl. Depending on how loud you like to listen, I don't foresee any problems in a 14x14' room, except for the dimensions themselves. Squares are not especially good for music reproduction....

Edits: 06/30/09
If you want electrostatics speakers that could rock!.... - kootenay 17:25:04 06/29/09 (0)
Martin Logan Monolith III and Prodigy models come to mind, as both speakers can plumbed all the way down to 30 fundamental Hz. If your ancillary equipment allows it. I used to listened to them with ACDC (Highway to Hell), Rush (Tom Sawyer) Pink Floyd (Breath) Payola (Eyes of Stranger) to name a few cd, the sound was very dynamic and transparent with no harsh or compression to speak off.

If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
Rock or Mahler no problem with... - Jonathan 90 16:33:24 06/29/09 (0)
Maggie1.6 QR powered by a Crown K1, assisted by a Hsu 3.2 sub, and directed by an Outlaw ICBM is a good combination, not much lacking.
___
Most people don't know what they want... but they're pretty sure they haven't got it. ©
If you want *punch* - E-Stat 15:43:06 06/29/09 (0)
you'll need some cone woofers. Electrostatic bass, even when delivering virtually flat response to 25 hz, will never thump or punch like cone woofers. You'll get genuine low end, but some folks like that punchy characteristic only cones can deliver.

rw
Depends what you mean by "doing" rock! ... - andyr 13:53:52 06/29/09 (0)
I think my 3-way active IIIas deliver Dire Straits & Pink Floyd superbly - and so do my mate's big electrostatics with subs. But for chest-concussive bass, which a lot of rock has (not just head-banger rock), I think you need cones. (Although I admit I've never heard Scintillas.)

Regards,

Andy
Apogee Scintillas set to 1.0ohm - varkdriver 13:38:48 06/29/09 (1)
And driven by a stack of KMA model Krells... I use to "brown-out" my neighbors houses. Really, I am not kidding.
- Doesn't have to be - muralman1 15:34:12 06/29/09 (0)
  mY amps draw 10 watts at idle, and 250 at a full turn. I use a 100 watts of it normally.
I, for one, am kind of tired of trying to get Maggies to be something that - powermatic 13:06:19 06/29/09 (16)
they're really not: rock speakers. Yes, they do many things well, and I thought I could be happy with them playing my jazz albums, but ya' know, sometimes you just want to crank up some rock 'n roll. After thinking about adding stereo subs, and another(!) amp, I've grown weary of chasing something I may never find, and I'm looking in a different direction. In my case, I'm trying high efficiency- I've got a stereo pair of vintage 'Tannoy 12" Monitor Gold Dual Concentric' speakers on the way. Yes, I'll need to build boxes, but 10 or 20 tube watts should see high SPLs, and the Tannoys have a rep for a smooth, non-fatiguing mid range. Basically, Brit voicing-similar to the Spendors and Harbeths. We'll see.

Good Luck.

"dammit"
- say it ain't so - wazoo 16:52:31 06/29/09 (15)
  After building a gorgeous pair of frames for your MMGs, are you seriously thinking about replacing them? I went the hybrid route and I'm satisfied that they can rock. Tool sounds better on my Maguillotines than on my refurbished AR91s or my JBL L112s! One can't have rock without a rock-solid bottom end.
  
  "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
  - Tool you say? - Dawnrazor 21:12:27 06/30/09 (7)
    Dude think back to some of our e-mails about music.
    
    I think Tool could work for both of us...kind of a Rosetta Stone if you will.
    
    I had Aenima or whatever it was and lost it and never bought it because it was always something like $20 or something crazy and I just stopped looking.
    
    And then the other album came out with the song that said something like "...I know the pieces fit..." I liked that too...schism I think:
    
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhjG47gtMCo
    
    Perhaps I should pony up and buy them.
    
    Still have the one that has the comedian I think (I forget his name) talking about the carrots and death being necessary.
    
    Thanks Waz for spending some dough for ol Dawnrazor and for posting.
    
    FWIW I almost ONLY listen to rock on the maggies.
    
    And that reminds me of an experience where I listened to some friends mirages. Dude that is THE rock speaker for maggie lovers. I played all the audiophile stuff and it sounded like ass. I put in the Cult and damn it sounded awesome, and all the stuff he played was classic rock and I was amazed that it sounded great, but Diana Krall sounded terrible.
    
    I THINK they were the OM-9s or something like that. It was very strange.
    - Tool again - Dawnrazor 00:47:25 07/03/09 (0)
      Hey Guys,
      
      Here is a link to the info about the comedian...Bill Hicks and a bit about their relationship.
      
      I thought Hicks was a riot and was sad when he died. And any comedian whose WHOLE act gets censored and cut from Letterman not for bad words, but for content, is OK in my book.
      
      And YES I dont think that highly of Diana Krall or at least that type of music. I havent met her myself :)
      
      But I have demo stuff so the real audiophiles wont kick me out and in my example none of them sounded good on the mirage speakers...but rock did.
      
      http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/vol16/issue5/xtra.bill (Open in New Window)
    - RE: Tool you say? - Kiefer74.1 08:21:12 07/01/09 (0)
      A few thoughts regarding Tool...
      
      I 1st heard them live a was surprised (and happy) to find that they wern't a grunge band.
      
      The album with the comedian...are you referring to Opiate?
      I've always assumed it was Maynard preachin it out through a megaphone with a lil southern preacher style accent. Now I'm curious & gonna have to Google and see if I can find out ;)
      
      Almost all their video's give me a panic attack for some reason, a bit to strange or demented for me & doesn't represent what I hear/feel from the music. Their music is rather boring to play (on guitar & bass at least IMO), yet when the mood fits I can listen to any album from Aenima on and feel transported. Undertow has great songs, but I've never though of it as a concept album of sorts.
      
      I fully agree the presentation is quite different with cone speakers & enjoy both planar & box for that style of music.
      
      Anyway, just thought I'd share since I recently listened to 10,000 on my 1.6's and 3.6's back to back...
    - Tool just keeps getting better. - wazoo 04:45:30 07/01/09 (3)
      I was introduced to Tool by one of our 'sons' and I didn't like what I heard - it was their first album. Then he stopped by with Undertow and my opinion changed - I liked some of it quite a bit. I liked it enough to buy it. Aenima was even better and I think Lateralus (the one with Schism ) had only one song for which I didn't care - I still don't like the screaming stuff like Ticks and Leeches . If you like them at all, you must buy Lateralus . 10,000 Days is a revelation. Some of it is highly personal - about the life and death of Keenan's mother. At any rate, the group is comprised of highly talented individuals who obviously spend the time it takes to craft a quality product - if I'm not mistaken, their last album was five years in the making.
      
      Diana Krall does nothing for me, but taste in music is a personal thing, so this is in no way intended as a value judgement.
      
      "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
      - Tool on ESL 63's amazing... - Jonesy 11:16:05 07/01/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tool just keeps getting better. posted by wazoo on July 01, 2009 at 04:45:30
        
        That band in league of their own. :)
        
        "I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
        
        RE: Tool on ESL 63's amazing... - Zombie 13:38:24 07/02/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tool on ESL 63's amazing... posted by Jonesy on July 01, 2009 at 11:16:05
        
        I love the smell of ozone in the morning
        
        LOL! You Got It! - Jonesy 14:24:01 07/02/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tool on ESL 63's amazing... posted by Zombie on July 02, 2009 at 13:38:24
        
        Nothing like a pair of Quads rockin' to 'n fro' pushed to the verge of 'clamp down'!
        
        I hope I am not harming the atmosphere???
        
        Cheers!
        
        Jonesy
        
        "I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
    - "....Diana Krall sounded terrible." - powermatic 22:37:51 06/30/09 (0)
      Well...that's not much of a revelation. (-:
      
      "dammit"
  - "One can't have rock without a solid bottom end" ... - andyr 17:10:35 06/29/09 (0)
    My wife has a "solid bottom end" and, man, she rocks! :-))
    
    Regards,
    
    Andy
  - Yeah, but you've got those great subs - powermatic 17:04:00 06/29/09 (5)
    integrated into your speakers-a beautiful setup. And who knows, maybe that's what I'll end up with.
    
    What I'm doing is just experimentation at this point-partly for simplification, partly just to try something new. I'll definitely spend plenty of time comparing. Plus, I'll be able to recoup any money I put into the project, minus the cost of some ply for some temporary boxes. I'll keep you posted. (-:
    
    "dammit"
    - Hey, if it worked for Acoustat... - wazoo 20:24:07 06/29/09 (4)
      ...and it works for Martin Logan, I figured it would work with a pair of Maggies. So, it wasn't exactly an original idea, but I'm conviced that it's a good one. I don't suppose it's necessary to actually combine them as I did, but I just didn't have the floor space to do it any other way.
      
      My little RELs got better when I replaced their drivers with a pair of JLs. They're still 'musical', but now they're CPR certified. ;-)
      
      Good luck with this project and fire me an email with info if you have the time. Speaking projects, did you ever finish that 3-arm turntable?
      
      "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
      - Didn't hear about that driver replacement. - powermatic 22:44:40 06/30/09 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hey, if it worked for Acoustat... posted by wazoo on June 29, 2009 at 20:24:07
        
        Do you have a link?
        
        And yes, the fabled 'wankel' three arm deck is up and running, plus I've completed a Technics SL-1200 to a new plinth-I'll send you photos.
        
        "dammit"
        
        no link - wazoo 05:03:33 07/01/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Didn't hear about that driver replacement. posted by powermatic on June 30, 2009 at 22:44:40
        
        The driver change was necessitated by a whoops which damaged a voice coil in one of my REL subs. The JL Audio W3v3 looked like a good replacement driver - good match to the amp and size of the enclosure. After making the swap, I was so stunned that I replaced the driver in the perfectly good sub. This was a very recent change and well worth the money - not much actually. These things ROCK!
        Post or send me a photo of the TT - I'd love to see it (and congratulations on its completion).
        
        "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
        
        Edits: 07/01/09
        
        RE: no link - Kiefer74.1 07:12:46 07/01/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: no link posted by wazoo on July 01, 2009 at 05:03:33
        
        Although I lost interest in car audio in the late 90's I remember having a pair of w6's (8") that were surprisingly visceral. I had 2 buddies at the time, one with 2 10" and the other with 2 12" of the same...they dialed them in mainly for impact and man, they sure hit the mark!
        
        How would you rate/compare the performance/musicality (and HT use) of the JL's compared to the stock REL drivers in your setup?
        
        nothing but gains - wazoo 10:49:37 07/01/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: no link posted by Kiefer74.1 on July 01, 2009 at 07:12:46
        
        The W6s are dual VC W3s - not much difference otherwise. The JL drivers give up nothing in musicality to the stock drivers in my Q150s - just gave them more oomph. I didn't replace the driver in my Q200 (different system) and I have a dedicated HT sub (an old 15" Klipsch). The 'subs' in my hybrids aren't used as true subwoofers, so I can't answer the HT question (though, I guess I could experiment).
        
        "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - hifi Buster 12:22:56 06/29/09 (0)
As much as I like my fully gunned/drkielbasa 1.6 maggies, if I had another go, Iwould definately check out the Definitive Technology Mythos STS SuperTower speakers.

I checked them out at Best Buy and they can seriously rock (adjustable bass 300 watt class D amplifiers) while maintaining revealing definition.
Lots of fun. $1500.00 each.

Wes Phillips did a review on them in the Aug 08 Stereophile.
- http://www.definitivetech.com/documents/articles/49132_eprin (Open in New Window)
Acoustats - hella356 09:15:59 06/29/09 (1)
Acoustats do rock well. No longer in production but good used examples can be found for reasonable bucks.
- 2nd the Acoustats - dogwan 20:48:14 06/29/09 (0)
  Look for my recent posts on restoring a vintage pair of X's.
  
  I'm really happy with them. Was just listing to some Fleetwood Mac, early Queen followed by some Zep. All on vinyl of course. Can't say they were missing anything.
  
  -Dogwan
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - Jim Treanor 08:40:15 06/29/09 (0)
You probably already know that in a square room such as yours you have a low-end frequency room mode issue (whether with dipoles or front-radiators) that you may be able to ameliorate to some extent with acoustic treatment. That aside, 14'x14' strikes me as too small for Maggie 3.6's, and barely at the edge of livability for a pair of 1.6's, even if you park them only 3' from the front wall. If Maggies are where you'd like to go, MMG's or MG-12's with a subwoofer may be your most viable option.

Maggies aren't stats, BTW, though as flat-panel planars they look similar to them. The stat breed includes Quads, Eminent Technology LFT's, and Martin Logans. Some of these are hybrids, with "conventional" woofers for the low end.

If possible, you should see if you can audition Maggies (or other planars or stats) in your own room and system before you commit to a purchase.

Jim
U get rock level from... - gymwear5@hotmail.com 07:22:46 06/29/09 (1)
My MMG's & a good pair of subs + 1000 Watt amp. 113dB peaks are not a problem
- RE: U get rock level from... - thetintdoctor 16:06:53 06/29/09 (0)
  +1 in agreement with gymwear about the~113db levels being obtainable. My setup is at this time: A pair of used MG 1.5 QR's: $500.00. 1 Crown XLS-602 amp; Class AB, 600 w/ch all day into 4 ohms: $300.00. 1- Rythmik Audio 15" Servo Sub kit + wood + skinned knuckles and a couple quarts a' beer: about $600.00. Being able to shake both floors of my house with any good organ recording, or have Mike Portnoy's double kicks beat my brains out: you guessed it; priceless! The picture of my drumset was not completely necessary, and I apologize. I just wanted to put to rest any comments along the lines of " you don't know what rock levels are". I play my drums and then walk appx. 25' down a hallway and sit in front of my stereo setup. No, the Maggie/Rythmik/Crown setup is not as loud as my drums, but it sounds very close to realistic at nearly realistic levels. For $1,400.00 I call that a real bargain. For something that you can listen to rock on at nearly realistic levels in a 14' x 14' room, then put on some Steely Dan or Jennifer Warnes or Rimsky-Korsakov, it's hard to beat the compromises with a stick. IMHO, MMG's about 3' from any wall with a little bit of treatment on the rear wall will net you nice imaging, and if you want to move them out into the room, they are super easy to move. BTW: I just saw a report on some Cerwin Vega towers in an isuue of TAS. Harley praised them for being pretty neutral and not screwing the music too badly. They also have 2 15" woofers per side. I think they were about $1,000.00. Good Luck on your journey!
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - Audiojan 05:57:23 06/29/09 (1)
I would definately say that my Maggi 1.6QR's driven by a Krell KAV-250a directly from a Wadia 830 (balanced Cardas Cross and shot-gun Cardas Cross to the speakers) can rock!!! So much so, that my wife started to look for the subwoofer. Maybe not at ear splitting levels, but loud enough for me.
- I have the amplifier - Plinius_Fan 06:24:24 06/29/09 (0)
  I use Symphonic Line power amp...source is a Reimyo DAC. I dont think power is an issue for me...but what about the room size ?
RE: Planar speakers that can do rock !!! - play-mate 05:40:33 06/29/09 (12)
hey plinius

well powered 3.x series maggies can definitely play rock, but not quite to live-event sound pressure.
bi- or triamped maggies with current delivering amps in the +500watt size can indeed bring out brachial slam enough to satisfy the most of the neighborhood. especially when used with a competent subwoofer.
-but then we´re beyond your price point !
- My room size is just about 200 sqft - Plinius_Fan 06:23:11 06/29/09 (11)
  I have read that Maggies need a lot of space...I can keep the maggies only 3ft away from the rear wall...do you think they will work ?
  - RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - Satie 15:51:59 06/30/09 (0)
    That is enough room for a 3.x
    
    I always suggest people get one size up from the consensus recommendation for their room. Getting less out of your speaker is easy, getting more is hard.
    
    3 ft is more than enough if your room is not walled in masonry. If it is, a couple of full size bookcases loaded with records CDs books, part empty boxes and bric-brac will do the job. Then 2 feet should do.
    
    The big improvement in dynamics comes from taking out the bass crossover and biamping with an active crossover. An Arc welding type amp from the pro audio realm will do well on the bass panel without hurting your midrange magic.
    
    Eventually, a wood frame project is reportedly goes a good long way to improve bass and overall dynamics even further.
    
    Finally, for good old 70s rock, there is the ...gasp... EXPANDER. You can get one from most pro audio shops or get a venerable dbx unit off of ebay. When used conservatively, they sound very good - as good as dolby C recorded tapes do relative to non dolby C. Many of these recordings were heavily compressed when the bands made it big and signed up with a record label that marketed them like cheap toothpaste. It had to sound "good" on the boombox. Fortunately, post Walkman/Discman recordings were not that badly treated.
  - Consult the Cardas room setup page. - Al Sekela 15:18:03 06/30/09 (0)
    Dipole bass is sensitive to room wall and ceiling distances. See the simple formulas on the Cardas room setup page to calculate the most likely optimum locations for speakers in your room (separate formulas for box and Magnepan speakers). The predicted locations are good starting points for finding the optimum setup. It takes a lot of listening and moving the speakers (as little as a quarter of an inch!) to find the best blend of sound-stage and tonal balance.
    
    If the calculated locations are not even close to being practical, then I would pass on speakers with dipole bass, such as Magnepans.
    
    The 14 X 14 dimensions also worry me. The equal width and depth will cause overlapping resonance modes and make smooth bass difficult to achieve with any speakers. You may need to look into bass traps.
    - Cardas Insights; "Room Setup" (Open in New Window)
  - RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - wae5 07:57:03 06/29/09 (8)
    Buying MMGs for $650 and a Behringer amp like the A500 ($185 and fanless) or the EP1500 ($250 with noisy fan) from B&H will save you from feeling like a fool for spending $4K when you don’t need to.
    Your room’s small so big Maggies are wrong and why would you need anything other than an amp with lots of grunt for rock ‘n roll where distortion's the name of the game?
    - RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - Drumhead 08:45:14 06/29/09 (7)
      I have MMG's with a studio amp-Alesis $360 no fan, big fins. I've never heard the A500 but with mixers I haven't been impressed with Behringer's quality. Keep in mind, the MMG's need alot of break-in before they yield decent bass.
      
      Maggie MMG's bring me back to my beloved BES dipole sound
      - RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - thetintdoctor 16:55:24 07/02/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft posted by Drumhead on June 29, 2009 at 08:45:14
        
        Jim:
        
        Which Alesis amp do you have? I have used Crown amps to great effect, but had to mess with silencing the cooling fans... Alesis; big fins, you say? I'd love to try it!
        
        Oh, in re: to Behringer stuff: I have used several of their products in my home studio and found them to be good value for money. I've never gigged out with their equipment, so I can't say how it would hold up under those conditions. :-)
        
        RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - Drumhead 03:52:17 07/03/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft posted by thetintdoctor on July 02, 2009 at 16:55:24
        
        At the risk of raising someone's bloodpressure (they make pills for that), I have the Alesis RA500. Big fins might be an exaggeration but I push it and it stays fairly mild heat-wise. Nice traps by the way. I have a 5-pc. Pearl Session set with Zildjians.
        Maggie MMG's bring me back to my beloved BES dipole sound
      - RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - wae5 12:40:03 06/29/09 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft posted by Drumhead on June 29, 2009 at 08:45:14
        
        He's buying speakers and an amp so what do mixing boards have to so with it?
        
        RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - Drumhead 14:25:40 06/29/09 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft posted by wae5 on June 29, 2009 at 12:40:03
        
        I was commenting on my experience with Behringer. I'm sure the level of Q.C. pertains to the entire line.
        
        Maggie MMG's bring me back to my beloved BES dipole sound
        
        RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - wae5 22:37:19 06/29/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft posted by Drumhead on June 29, 2009 at 14:25:40
        
        http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17004
        
        I own three Behringers including the EP1500 amp and have never had a problem with them.
        
        I don't think it's fair to damn a whole product line just because you had problems with a mixing board.
        
        The nice thing about Behringer amps is it's easy to get a 15 (B&H) or 45 day (Musician's Friend) home trials to see if you like them.
        
        RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - Jim_E 10:27:25 07/02/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft posted by wae5 on June 29, 2009 at 22:37:19
        
        Behringer gear seem to attract a great deal of bias, some of it deserved among the pro audio crowd. They have reputation of reliability issues on some product lines and copying other companies designs.
        
        I have used their DCX2496 crossover in a few installations, and found it to be a really good product at the price point.
        
        The Behringer amplifier line is really more of a consumer level product, rather then a professional amplifier. For professional amplifiers I would strongly suggest either the QSC or Crown products.
        
        Jim
        
        RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft - wae5 10:34:00 07/06/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My room size is just about 200 sqft posted by Jim_E on July 02, 2009 at 10:27:25
        
        So if we're not consumers, what are we? :O)

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