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brain storming with Magnepan

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For 35 years I have been at this job of marketing Magneplanars and I love it. I have never been on this forum in the past. Of late, I have been working long hours, 6 and 7 days a week. There has been little time for much of anything else, including a normal life. (In case you didn't know it, Magnepan is a lean, mean machine, which is part of the reason Magneplanars are such a good value. We aren't getting rich, but we are happy and we don't have to sweat the competition from a global economy).

We prefer to talk to customers on the phone vs. emails. I will not have the time to respond to emails or be an active member on this forum, but I have an idea I want to explore with you.

From time to time, there are issues or ideas which we would like to explore in a more informal manner. I am considering a page on our website to write about these subjects of special interest.

I am thinking of something rather democratic. If a majority opinion from this forum and phone calls we get indicates a special subject of interest, I would write an article addressing that issue. It would be put on our website for all to see. And since you folks are well-traveled on the internet, if that particular issue came up else where, they could be directed to our thoughts on the subject.

What I am really searching for is the most efficient means of learning what you want and getting that information to you-- given the limitations of our small staff.

These subjects would need to have a common thread between a wide group of interested individuals. Obviously, which capacitor will improve your MG Is is specific to a very small group of individuals. Hopefully, we can learn what interests the most number of people and then respond in an efficient manner.

So, what do you think?

Follow Ups:

RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Satie 13:22:31 06/12/09 (0)
This is a little late, but I think it would be helpful for Magnepan and its customers to have the following options as commercially viabe line extensions.

For the larger 2.x 3.x and 20.x three major after-market options are needed with the certainty that they work. The more dedicated among us have been doing them themselves with after-market companies and DIY. Magnepan can make significant margins on these as after-market upgrades to existing speakers that would otherwise not provide any revenue to Magnepan. These same upgrades can be offered in new speakers when ordered.

1. Stands with spikes and back brace, and RF chokes. Do not require opening up the speakers.

2. High grade crossover components.

3. Active crossover with Magnepan chosen filter alignment can be done with a Magnepan (re) badged pro-audio device from Rane or Ashley etc. with perhaps slight upgrades to caps and op-amps, or custom designed by Marchand.

These cover the bulk of after-market upgrades done by the more committed (or committable...) among us. Plenty of us embarked on our projects reluctantly after realizing that the basic models we have are as large as would fit in our listening rooms and as good as is commercially available. If Magnepan had an upgrade available for any of the three items above, we would have either ordered a new speaker with the upgrade installed, or sent our old speakers in for upgrade.

For me personally, making the push-pull midrange available to upgrade (at the factory or DIY) a 3.x/IIIX or Tympani would be great. It is not possible for us to buy a 20.1, because of its cost, its size (too tall for my rec room for example), or because it has too much bass for an intermediate size room (most living rooms).
listed in order of bang-per-buck... - Mart 07:50:09 06/06/09 (0)
1) flying buttresses to stiffen panel restores audible dynamics

2) better terminals, fuse-holders, driver-crimps, etc (perhaps thinly-gilded-brass) to rid that tinny sound

3) top-end Maggies should (IMHO) have a POI bypass cap on tweeter

... just my 2¢ ♪ moderate Mart ♫
☺ Planar Asylum
where speakers are thin & music isn't
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Simm55 16:17:21 06/05/09 (0)
Magnepan should have a presence at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest! (I am a Magnepan owner and have been for over 30 years.) The RMAF is rapidly becoming the premier showcase for high end audio in a friendly atmosphere.
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - gcouture@bellsouth.net 11:33:01 06/01/09 (0)
I'm really glad to see company presence here. There are a lot of talented people on this forum that willingly share info (usually gained through blood sweat and tears) on these wonderful spekers. I think you will be suprised by the level of knowledge and dedication you will find here, welcome!
Developing the A4-size "MiniMaggies" into a new scalable modular approach - Ronnhedh 08:35:15 06/01/09 (0)
Very much welcome Wendell!

As I appreciate your openness, I would try to contribute with some minor ideas. In my earlier life as a product & marketing mgr, I valued input from customers highly.

This forum has been followed on a daily basis for nearly ten years and has been a great inspiration in establishing my music system. My modified and bi-amped 3.6 will stay with me for this life-time. While I am the most satisfied customer, will not however suggest you to innovate many of the modifications discussed in this forum (such as stands, better caps/coils etc) as these are aftermarket improvements only interests a minority of customers, it seems.

However I believe your latest development of the ”mini-Maggies” could become complementary addition to your vast product range.
By developing the A4-size "MiniMaggies" into a new scalable modular approach is suggested. Such modules could easily being implemented as a single unit which is stack-able in the vertical dimension with these properties:

1. First, a point-source thin mini monitor speaker are known for their imaging properties.

2. Secondly, the principle of a tall column that comprise a line array of properly implemented speakers allows: Contours the vertical sound dispersion such that floor and ceiling reflections are minimized; Maintains a wide listening area with room filling, nearly constant sound intensity; Provides exceptional dynamic range and linear performance.
(Design Guidelines for Practical Near Field Line Arrays, James R. Griffin).

3. Standardized speaker modules would allow various configurations as 2-channel audio as well as all channels home theater etc.

4. A new "modern, cool looking" MiniMaggie face could define the new product design.

5. Complementary planar dipole woofers or monopole woofers would need to be added for the low range.

6. Finally, crossovers could be modularized, allowing for active bi-and tri-amping.

With this modular approach, I can see several significant benefits:

1. Customers could enter and grow the system as they like. Also, spouse acceptance becomes less of a ”pro/con” issue. Also, changing room size is less of an issue.

2. Customers are able to experiment with mounting (floor stands, or wall hinges), upgrade crossovers (passive or active analog or digital), minimizing sound bloom (with a curved baffle to equalize sound paths or by use of precedence effect via vertical power tapering etc. Here is a space after-market products

3. Possibly, a low entry price-point also ”middle income” customers could find a ”no compromize world-class” speakes to be affordable.

4. New niche markets could be addressed such as younger people with smaller compartments, complementary segments as home theater, wall-mount TV speakers, PC desktop speakers etc.

5. The established dealer network is supported since existing customers could return for upgrade and continue to add-on new modules as they advance.

6. Logistics could be dramatically simplified since shipping and storage will deal with small and lightweight units.

7. Central service and support could more easily and swiftly continue. Multiple module customers could continue to use their system while a module is away for maintenance.

8. Finally, such a product would allow for a worldwide introduction and gradual reach of new distribution network. Internet-based logistics would allow a dual-path distribution: direct customer shipment while promoting dealers for their added-value with after-sale kickback schemes.

Naturally a multi-way system will be more complex in terms of time-coherence and so on, it is important to educate dealers and customers. A physical or digital integration between bass- and mid-range by speaker placement and/or using digital delays could be obtained. Digital-based solutions are today available from several vendors as Behringer, TacT Audio, DEQX or PC based software.

I do realize that such new approach addressing new markets would require substantial investments in marketing. Although the economic crisis will hit most audio vendors, it is at the same time an opportunity for those stable and enduring companies to show their value and strengths.
Maybe new marketing channels has to be invented other queing up for the usual Stereophile and other magazine reviews.

This is what I think!
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - delaney@rea-alp.com 08:09:44 06/01/09 (0)
Completely redo your website. Develop a more efficient channel of communication for your customers (your idea of using your website-sounds great-but only if it is staffed Mon-Fri). Develop and produce the mini-Maggie (at a price point of less than $1500)...
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - MaggieLover 14:49:41 05/31/09 (13)
While all these suggestions are interesting, probably few, or perhaps none, will ever be implemented or even given a second thought by Magnepan.

Most of the maggie purchasers out there have never heard of this site, and have no desire to modify, tweak, or otherwise change their stock speakers in any way. They will not be willing to pay for more expensive crossovers or hardwood frames or stands, and for that matter, Magnepan will never offer any of these as options simply because it implies the speakers are not as good without them.

Adding hardwood frames and better stands and xovers would probably double the price of some models and price them out of the market they are in. And...no matter what changes magnepan implements, some people on this site will say thy haven't gone far enough. or the changes were not as good as they should be, will and still perform their own mods and tweaks.

Magnepan has a successful business and excellent, if not perfect, products. It would be naive for anyone to expect them to to modify a successful line to meet the desires of a small speciallist group of owners. This company before anything else is a profit motivated business, they are not hobbiests.

Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark
- read a basic marketing book - mbnx01 18:25:36 05/31/09 (8)
  And pay particular attention to the chapter on 'product life cycles'. You'll find something very interesting happens at the end of the product life cycle. SALES GO DOWN.
  Just because they can't mass-produce custom-made 'gunned' speakers with exquisite hardwood frames doesn't mean they can't EVER improve their speakers.
  This is all silly in a way. NONE OF US knows what is going on at Magnepan. Are their sales going up? Down? Holding steady? Do they have a ton of money in the bank, or are they broke? We have exactly zero information about what their sales, financials, etc, are.
  If Wendall is interested in finding out what people want, I say let's tell him. This 'never mind, go back to what you were doing' attitude makes no sense to me.
  
  Edits: 05/31/09
  - your point begs the question - wazoo 21:27:01 05/31/09 (6)
    Who gets to say when a product's life cycle has run its course? There's also the old axiom, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The 'New and Improved' mentality that pervades so many product lines is getting a bit old (after a dozen iterations of this comment, one begins to wonder how bad the old product was - or the current one for that matter, because the future will most certainly bring more 'New and Improved'), and in some ways that tag line appeals to the same crowd that believes $19.99 is less that $20.00 (Okay, it is less by one cent, but what's a friggin' penny?).
    I think you're missing the point. For 99.9% of their customers, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a pair of Maggies as they were built. I seriously doubt we are representative of the majority (or more than miniscule minority). Even among the members of this forum who have modified MMGs, I don't know anyone else who has made a pair of hybrids. So, I'm an exception among the exceptions, but I wouldn't want them any other way. I'm grateful that MMGs are dirt cheap and I'd like to see them stay that way.
    I agree that Magnepan uses some cheezy components in their XOs, but that's not exactly unusual. Regardless of that fact, stock Maggies are quite good speakers. In fact, it's their basic goodness that leads most of us to tweak them - they are worthy of the effort. If Magnepan were to alter their XOs, would it be possible for them to do it such that everyone would be pleased with them? I don't think so.
    The fact is that some people just like to tinker. I confess that I'm such an individual. For me, it's part of the fun of this hobby. I and others with a similar inclination will always be able to find something to change. As that applies to Maggies, there is simply no way Magnepan could mass produce hardwood frames and doing such a thing for a 'select' line would not only be expensive for them, it could be very harmful to the sales of their 'standard' line.
    We know something about Magnepan's financial status. They aren't in Washington begging for money. They don't appear to be facing bankruptcy. I believe what Wendell said about their running a lean business and I think it's the only way they have managed to survive this long; it's the only way they will continue to survive.
    I think we are telling Wendell what we want - we want Magnepan to stick with what works. That suggestion is not akin to our sticking our heads in the sand; it's an expression of our fear that monkeying with their product line would be a devastating mistake. It's also something of a facing of fact - we really are the lunatic fringe (even (hell, especially) you, Mr. Redwood).
    Long live Magnepan!
    
    "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
    
    Edits: 05/31/09 05/31/09
    - :-)) As the old saw goes "It takes one to know one"! :-)) nt - andyr 16:01:28 06/01/09 (1)
      .
      - guilty as charged ;-) [NT] - wazoo 20:39:01 06/01/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: :-)) As the old saw goes "It takes one to know one"! :-)) nt posted by andyr on June 01, 2009 at 16:01:28
        
        .
        
        "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
    - addendum: remember new coke? - wazoo 04:20:12 06/01/09 (3)
      That's an example of changing a perfectly good product (for no good reason) and facing bad consequences. If you're doing something right, don't change what you're doing. In my view, Magnepan is doing soemthing right. I agree that they should improve their QC efforts though.
      
      I replaced the Mini Mag Light in my toolkit with the 'new and improved' LED version until I realized how much I hated it. The old Mag Light is back in service and I gave the LED version to someone else (who is young and seemed to like it better). Why do I prefer the old one? The LED version is actually too bright and does not permit focusing of the beam. It may be new, but I don't think it's improved. I'm glad they still sell the regular version.
      
      "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
      - RE: addendum: remember new coke? - Green Lantern 05:51:51 06/01/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: addendum: remember new coke? posted by wazoo on June 01, 2009 at 04:20:12
        
        I love Magnepan to death and all it represents, but aside from the MMG home trial program, the marketing side of the house could use a good shot in the arm (perhaps the 'quote-end quote' Wendell visit).
        And you really don't have to look far..
        -observing their website which shows a pair of 3.6's pushed up against a wall in a waaaay too small room
        -Also the 20.1's being model'd with someone who's dressed like she's from the old TV series 'fame'.
        Sure; keep cost down, but do it without being cheesy.
        I think the stagnation in presenting 'new and improved' Maggie products has to do with Jim's retirement and the addition of their home theater line.
        I remember some of the best turntables to hit the streets were being churned out around '81,'82; only to be crushed by the new wave of CD players hitting the scene.
        The fact Magnepan is still standing is a testament to their business model. Businesses don't survive from customers, they survive from banks and apparently their bank has enough faith in them-so far.
        
        "You don't have to be faster than the lion....
        just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
        
        Edits: 06/01/09 06/01/09
        
        RE: addendum: remember new coke? - MaggieLover 07:34:14 06/01/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: addendum: remember new coke? posted by Green Lantern on June 01, 2009 at 05:51:51
        
        "-observing their website which shows a pair of 3.6's pushed up against a wall in a waaaay too small room "
        
        Hey GL,
        
        You and everyone else on this thread are correct IMHO. Almost all the changes suggested would be wonderful in a perfect world. Their web site and marketing strategies seems old. They don't accept email. Much of their line (except perhapss the 20.1s) is marketed as value for price to an audience with some money to spend but who are generally not hobbyiests or perfectionists.
        
        If Magnapan told their potential customer base that their speakers would sound their best:
        
        * in a rooms of certain dimensions,
        * with the speakers well away from rear and side walls,
        * with the addition of room treatments,
        * with larger glass, concrete or tile surfaces covered,
        * with the listening postion well away from room bounderies,
        * with the listener sitting dead center between the panels,
        * with large amounts of very clean high current power,
        * and with top quality cd playeres and preamps,
        
        then I suspect their sales would plummet.
        
        There are proabaly many tens of thousands (or more) maggies owners living blissfully in ignorance of the truths we believe in. Many of their setups might well appall us and make us wonder why they even bought maggies in the first place. They in turn would probably think most of us were a bunch of anal retentive geeks with too much time on our hands.
        
        This is a business first. They design and build what they think they can sell in a specific market segment, and price the speaker based on the costs of parts and labor and the profit they want to make. They market it to sell the most product they can.
        
        Unlike the maufacturers of box speakers who have to compete with perhaps hundreds of brands of similar looking and often similar sounding speakers, Magnepan has relatively little competition in the panel speaker market, and almost none at the various price points of their models. As a result there is little incentive to redesign their line often. R&D is time consuming and expensive. It doesn't mean Magnepan is not interested in production quality or developing improvements, but staying in business, selling product and making a profit is their primary goal.
        
        Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
        
        Mark
        
        not sure if - Green Lantern 12:48:24 06/01/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: addendum: remember new coke? posted by MaggieLover on June 01, 2009 at 07:34:14
        
        the photo of the 3.6's was a 'conscience' decision for a universal placement example made to appeal to a mass market.
        I mean why not use the MMG's instead?
        It's almost an insult to the larger Maggie users.
        Oh well; it is what it is..
        Good points though; thanks for the reply.
        
        "You don't have to be faster than the lion....
        just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
        
        Edits: 06/01/09
  - I agree... - stevenk 19:14:30 05/31/09 (0)
    Mr. Diller was kind enough to ask us what's on our mind. He's obviously interested to know what Maggie users are thinking about.
    
    Why try to guess what his answers will be?
- RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Travis 15:39:12 05/31/09 (3)
  Yeah, you're right. They should never change anything because that would admit not being perfect before.
  
  Hurumph.
  
  "If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
  - RE: brain storming with Magnepan - MaggieLover 22:25:09 05/31/09 (2)
    Travis I'm not saying that no one should ever change anything. What I am saying is any changes Magnepan will make are generally going to be cost effective smaller steps to avoid alienationg their customer base, and not the major design changes that many here would like to see.
    
    Further, any changes they do make will be critized as not good enough by some segment of this forum. In any case the tweaking and modding will continue.
    
    Developing options like better xovers, frames and stands makes sense, and would be a cost effective business decision, only if they can sell enough of them. I don't believe they could push the superiority of any options in their marketing without implying that their products are not as good without them. Options could confuse their customer base who are generally not as savvy as many on this board.
    
    While options may work with cars and perhaps computers, when it comes to most other products most consumers don't want to have to make too many decisions or shell out large amounts of extra cash for what superficially doesn't seem to provide extra value to them.
    
    My brother who is a college professor, and has a Phd in physics, knows full well my passion for good sound He's currently looking to purchase a pair of MG12's. He's 66 years old and couldn't care less about mods or tweaks. He heard the speakeres recently and liked them, He'll take them home, attach them to his 35 year old, 100 wpc, refurbished Marantz receiver, use an inexpensive cd player and 14 guage no name speaker wire, and just enjoy listening to music. He would never consider buying the 12s for an addtional $500 inorder to improve the sound that he already thinks is great. To him they are good enough as is. I suspect the overwhelming Magnepan customer base feels the same.
    
    Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
    
    Mark
    - amen brother - wazoo 04:39:50 06/01/09 (0)
      Your brother represents the overwhelming majority of Magnepan's customer base. We are but a flea on an elephant. Besides, tweakers will always find something to tweak - it's not just in the speakers; it's in us . I bet the majority of asylum members who own Maggies have never and will never subject them to any internal modifications. We who have are a minority even among the minority. Who is the happier?
      
      "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
    - RE: brain storming with Magnepan - esande 23:17:43 05/31/09 (0)
      > I suspect the overwhelming Magnepan customer base feels the same.
      
      I suspect you may have a point there. They offer a well differentiated product line at several price points that is uniformly well reviewed.
      
      I don't know if there are QC issues, I haven't seen any with the ones I own. If they're not right they have a fair warranty.
      
      The issues they do have aren't exactly unknown to this forum, although the manuals could better address placement and power requirements. I've not had any hesitations about recommending them.
      
      I'm sure they could be better out of the box with some "minor" parts changes, but why mess with success.
      
      I don't have any information about sales figures, and I'm not exactly sure what's being asked for here.
      
      I'd say if the company is turning a profit, don't mess with what works.
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - TitaniumTroy 09:53:58 05/31/09 (0)
Products I would like to see from Magnepan:
An off the shelf active crossover system for the 1.6, 3.6, and 20.1. Sold thru a Magnepan dealer or direct from Magnepan.
The CCR True Ribbon center channel and it's companion woofer panel. Also if the woofer panel could be used with other Magnepan center channels, that would be cool.
How about a 6ft tall, 10-12"wide Magnepan using the True Ribbon Tweeter, and the 20.1 push/pull midrange. That would be optimized to work with an external subwoofer, designed by Magnepan. Perhaps using conventional drivers in a dipole configuration. This would help those of us who do not have space for a 20.1, not to mention increasing the wife approval factor.
How about a little more detail from Magnepan on proper room acoustics, room treatments, maybe they could work with RPG Diffusor Systems on this.
An update or statement of the progress of on going projects, would be nice once in awhile.
Glad to see Wendell taking an interest in the forum

Edits: 05/31/09
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Davey 16:10:52 05/30/09 (0)
Wendell,

I can't think of a worse use of your valuable time than entertaining brainstorming ideas from the likes of the nut-jobs on this forum. This is the antithesis of the "wide group of interested individuals" you mentioned and, unfortunately, would be the primary contributors with brainstorming ideas to help you out. :)

I find myself agreeing with Peter Gunn on this one.....(although not for the same reasons)......keep doing what you're doing. Improve the manufacturing process when possible but continue to offer the same high value products you have for years.

Cheers,

Dave.
My experience with maggies - mbnx01 10:50:36 05/30/09 (6)
First, thanks for your time and welcome to the Planar forum.
I've owned a number of Magnepans over the years (starting in 1978).
Most recently I had a pair of MG12's for about two years. I loved them, but the high-end (yes, I know about the resistor) was just too edgy for me and eventually I replaced them with a medium/smallish sized Brit studio monitor. And no, this isn't 'I was running them with a cheap receiver and they sounded bad'. My source, for example, is a Rega Saturn.
LOTS of people (and by 'Lots' I mean everyone) tell me the same thing - 'you're running stock MG12's? Yeah, I know what you mean about the high-end hash. If you replace the crossovers it will be a different speaker. You'll be amazed'.
Gotta tell you - I absolutely believe this is true. I've never heard a modded pair, but SO MANY people I know and trust tell me this. However I don't want to a) buy a product, then b) rebuild it.
Why can't I buy an MG12A (or whatever the next one would be) for $1595 (or whatever it would be) with a better crossover and maybe improved frame?
I would do that in a heartbeat.

Edits: 05/30/09 05/30/09
- cost - mbnx01 17:38:37 05/30/09 (0)
  $200 for parts to upgrade the crossover. $1200 price now. New price $1600. There's no increase in labor costs (if you're not taking out the old crossover, just putting in a better one, no change in labor time). I've even included some extra so they can hire another QA person (they need to). As Bill O'Reilly would say, 'tell me where I'm going wrong here'.
  I know you can't mass produce a beautiful wooden frame like PG does and sell it cheap.
  But these crossover parts are NOT that expensive. And after making the same product models for 10 years I think Magnepan should STEP UP THEIR GAME.
  
  Edits: 05/30/09
- "Why can't I buy a MG-12a for $1595?" Elementary, my dear Watson! :-)) Because ... - andyr 16:22:46 05/30/09 (3)
  it would cost at least 3 times as much as the stock MG-12 cost.
  
  You don't have to rebuild it yourself. Just call the mulleted midget! :-))
  
  Regards,
  
  Andy
  - RE: "Why can't I buy a MG-12a for $1595?" Elementary, my dear Watson! :-)) Because ... - Davey 17:27:11 05/30/09 (2)
    The mulleted mental midget is going to cost big bucks too. The BEST way is what I've always advocated. DIY!
    
    Dave.
    - Well, yes - absolutely, Davey. :-)) ... - andyr 17:32:36 05/30/09 (1)
      But I think the poster said he wasn't a DIY sorta fellow! :-)) And there are lots of MUGers who are the same ... and I would've thought we inmates here would be - what, 5%? - of the Magnepan user base? At most. :-((
      
      Regards,
      
      Andy
      - RE: Well, yes - absolutely, Davey. :-)) ... - Davey 20:07:51 05/30/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Well, yes - absolutely, Davey. :-)) ... posted by andyr on May 30, 2009 at 17:32:36
        
        5%? I seriously doubt that. I'm thinking maybe 0.005%.
        
        Dave.
- Why? - RickeyM 15:57:07 05/30/09 (0)
  "Why can't I buy an MG12A (or whatever the next one would be) for $1595 (or whatever it would be) with a better crossover and maybe improved frame? "
  
  'cause there would be a glut of used 1st gen Maggies on the market, real quick.
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Jim Treanor 09:28:58 05/30/09 (0)
Hi Wendell,

The last time we talked was when you visited John Garland's with your Ivie to check out our 1D positioning. That's a while ago, isn't it.

I'll add my second to the requests for think pieces on Maggie placement, amplifier selection, and crossover voicing. The placement and amp pieces should certainly be of interest to even the general non-audiophile consumer who wishes to get the most out of his or her purchase without fiddling with DIY or aftermarket-vendor modifications. And while the voicing issue may be of more limited interest, it would give those of us here who seek to extract even more magic from our Maggies useful insight into the assumptions and methodology employed to achieve what we might call "Maggie sound."

Good to see you here, especially given the constraints of your schedule.

Jim

http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr
I agree with wazoo - Peter Gunn 08:20:32 05/30/09 (2)
First, I thought (and am still not 100% convinced) you are who you say because if I am not mistaken someone used your name as an ID many years ago on here. If it is you, it would help if you obtain a permanenet "official" account like the rest of us and don't post as a guest.

Second, I agree with wazoo. The tail should not wag the dog. You are the one who has to literally live and die by your decisions as a company, and your track record indicates you know how to survive in a tough industry that leaves more than it's share of corpses along the road side.

That said I will submit a few opinions for what they are worth.

First, the one thing you could and should do is have better quality control at your factory. I see many of your drivers, and sometimes they are works of loving art, and sometimes they look like a trained chimp assembled them - tension buttons crushing the mylar, wires buckled so they are lifting 2 inches off of it (and I'm talking brand new speakers) and in some extreme cases the mylar itself so mis-applied the speakers could not possibly play right. This should not be happening, especially when people cannot "pop a dust cover" and examine the drivers they are buying as if they were a conventional speaker. We have to assume you did it right, and the fact is sometimes you are not.

That's really it. There are things you do I could question, but I won't. For example I could say we would all prefer you found a better adhesive so that delamination would not occur, and I am convinced such adhesives exist, but your company loyalty to 3M may have deeper implications than we are aware of, and you may actually need the refurb money to help stay solvent. So while we'd obviously like to see this problem end, it's not like we don't know what we're getting into and we still step in the boat. We also do not have to walk in your shoes.

As far as the improving argument, that would be the biggest mistake you could ever make. Your dealers already don't stock every model, and what, there will then be an MMG, and improved MMG, a "super delux" MMG, an MMG with "special option 8F" etc... add to the fact this could apply to 5 different models, who could possibly stock such a line? It would cause confusion, cost you and your dealers a fortune and people would STILL tinker. People don't understand your costs when they make such suggestions, as altering products on assmebly lines cost money and time. And what will these people do when the price of the 1.6 jumps to 4 grand and the parts inside are still not what they wanted?

No, just continue to do what you do, just watch the quality control, and things will be fine.

As far as what people would "like to see", I think the tinkerers would like to see you offer your drivers just so. This would only be a factory direct offer, but if you sold the drivers for your models at half the cost of the regular speaker it might help sales because some people don't buy because retail plus the added cost of "upgrading" is sometimes too much.

Second, many people don't have the room for the larger maggies and are interested in this small offshoot of the 20's technology. If you could price that around what the 1.6 is, I think they'd be very happy, it would sell well, and not effect the 1.6 sales because no matter how good it sounds little ones do not have the same presentation bigger ones do, and many are partial to that presentation.

That's it, other than I wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart for a speaker technology that brings joy to every single day of my life.

It's all about the music...
- I dunno... - Green Lantern 22:53:15 05/30/09 (0)
  trolls can be quite crafty...
  
  I believe on different occasions Wendell and Mart have corresponded; so the OP's 'first time here' statement initially sent my BS meter into a whirl-wind spin.
  However; the IP DOES originate from St Paul, MN; (about 19 minutes from White Bear Lake)...who knows..I sure dont.
  
  I agree registering puts a lot of credibility in a poster; and the 'driver only' option from White Bear is a brilliant idea.
  
  "You don't have to be faster than the lion....
  just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
- And I agree with Peter - mbnx01 10:29:59 05/30/09 (0)
  I have had some experiences with QC from Magnepan that makes me leery of buying new production products from White Bear Lake.
  
  I know your company is devoted to lowest price on your products, and that is quite admirable. But believe me....I would pay MORE MONEY for a product that is more consistent and has higher quality parts.
  
  My ideal Magnepan is probably an upgraded MMG. Better frame, better crossover, better parts. Martin Logan updated their product line a few years ago and at every price point they had a smaller speaker that works better in peoples real-world (ie, 'smaller') rooms.
  
  I know the Mantra at Magnepan has always been 'the best speaker is the one with the biggest panel'. But your experiences with the mini-magnepan and Peter Gunns modified MMG's certainly show that there can be other equally valid approaches to optimizing sound quality at a given size/price-point.
  
  Someone in the high-fi world, I forget who, was asked how they felt about people modifying their products. He said, 'you've got to buy one before you can modify one, so I'm ok with it'. But this 'I'm going to open it up and fix it' mentality pushes the used market, not new sales from the factory. And lots of people (and I'm one of them) do not have the skills or desire to rebuild crossovers or frames.
  
  Lastly...have you not learned how to make a better MG12, 1.6, etc, in the last decade? Long life-spans in products can be quite admirable, but your current product line is seriously getting on in years. I think a lot of people are leery of spending two grand on a ten year old product if a new version is coming out in six months.
  
  Thank you for coming out here. I think this is a pretty good forum and people here are quite passionate about their Magnepans. And I think you consider hiring Peter Gunn as a consultant. New blood and all that.
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Norman M 07:02:59 05/30/09 (2)
Would the real Mr. Wendell Diller please stand up (or is someone faking to be him)?

If it is the real Mr.WD, please tell us how you feel about the #1 tweak, by-passing fuses. (In an old phone conversation you had informed me that if fuses detracted from the sound, Magnepan would have resolved the problem without any need to by-pass fuses.)
- Hehe - good point, Norman. :-)) ... - andyr 17:28:38 05/30/09 (1)
  But I suspect Wendell does not want to simply be a supplier of info to us, his loyal Magnepan userbase. He wants to get info from us! :-))
  Regards,
  Andy
  
  Edits: 05/30/09
  - RE: Hehe - good point, Norman. :-)) ... - Norman M 09:39:29 06/01/09 (0)
    At the possible cost of repeating this information, I'm able to confirm that this is the real Mr. Diller, as minutes ago I got off the phone with him. (What aroused some suspicion is that by clicking on his name information that no such Identity existed, was returned.)
    Norman
On the surface the idea sounds fantastic, but... - wazoo 06:07:57 05/30/09 (2)
...are you certain you want to entertain (or share with a broader segment of your customer base) ideas from the lunatic fringe? We are the few, the crazy, the ones who have in some cases completely dismantled and rebuilt your product. Regardless of what some of us may think about our modifications (I love mine ;-), I cannot envision a single change I'd suggest Magnepan make to their speakers or, in turn, to their marvelously efficient manufacturing process.

I like the suggestions forwarded by ‘neolith’ with respect to your discussing placement issues and how Magnepan voices their crossovers. It just seems to me that there are far too many topics that get discussed in this forum that you, as the manufacturer, simply should avoid – stay out of the bog if you don’t want to drown! So, although all of us are thrilled at the prospect of Magnepan’s entering the fray, I’m not sure how well our nutty ideas would be received by the hoi polloi of your customer base.

I can’t help but have a fair amount of intellectual curiosity about Magnepan’s take on what we do and discuss, but I appreciate the very real danger inherent in your making comments about any of it. Your proposal is very enticing, but be careful.

Thank you for building an awesome product within the reach of so many music lovers!

"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
- Now, now, waz ... you and GL belong to the "lunatic fringe". Me - I'm firmly grounded! :-)) nt - andyr 17:24:06 05/30/09 (0)
  .
- agree on these points- - Green Lantern 07:43:16 05/30/09 (0)
  Assuming the OP is legit; I believe there is a slight risk of alienation from the consumer once the 'dark science' is opened for scrutinizing, analyzation, criticism, etc, especially on a 'one topic at a time' approach... but hey; it IS a start.
  
  I also respect the crew down there in White Bear Lake; but I just find it odd that a marketing analyst of one the most highly regarded speakers in the history of audio, has -never- visited the largest Magnepan blog in the World.
  But then again we are lunatics and I'm not sure I would be willing to make such a commitment (or even use my real name) if I were in his shoes.
  
  My personal thoughts on the concept of a 'single topic' article is a 'start' but around here it would be kind of like 'tossing a cookie to the monkeys in the zoo'..
  
  Will your idea come to fruition? hell who knows (I personally doubt it);
  
  but then again, one thing we Maggie owners are known for is our patience...
  
  "You don't have to be faster than the lion....
  just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - mrr 19:07:02 05/29/09 (1)
Wendell,

Is that REALLY you? After all these years with no web presence, I'll have to admit I'm a bit skeptical.

If this happens, I'll gladly participate in any way possible!

bb
- RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Dawnrazor 19:21:06 05/29/09 (0)
  Great minds. That was my first thought. But an ip search revealed an internet service provider in Minnesota so that makes it pretty likely it is Wendell.
  
  But you never know.
Great idea, Wendell. It should be able to be a 2-way street but ... - andyr 16:31:00 05/29/09 (0)
if Magnepan is a "lean mean machine" and only you are there to represent Magnepan on this forum, I suspect you'll be looking more for input from us than giving us back the answers we seek.

You said you wanted " the most efficient means of learning what you want and getting that information to you ". I know our community would love to have factory answers for very many questions - you can see some below - and IMO your presence on this Forum would be an efficient method of getting feedback. (The Linn Forum used to be just for Linn TT aficionados but now we are getting more and more "official Linn" people posting, so they must've come to realise that this is a worthwhile information channel.)

The vast majority of Maggie owners on this Forum IMO want to get the best from their Maggies - whatever model they have. Yes, the people who frequent this Asylum are a small percentage of the total number of Magnepan oweners ... but those others are presumably perfectly happy with what they have and couldn't care less about "better"! :-)) So they won't have any answers for you! :-))

Regards,

Andy
welcome!; good luck!; and - Green Lantern 16:22:18 05/29/09 (0)
I'll believe it when I see it...

Sending heartfelt thanks to you, Jim (of course), Steve and the entire crew in MN for many years of audio enlightenment!

"You don't have to be faster than the lion....
just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - palewin 15:52:10 05/29/09 (0)
Wendell, I think any approach which provides users with more information is excellent, and I appreciate your willingness to monitor this forum for ideas. The one thing that struck me is that one of the most frequently discussed subjects in this forum is Maggie crossovers, both design and components. Yet in both your posts you dismiss this as a subject of interest to only a small group of users. To the extent that the Audio Asylum forum is (one of?) the best known sites for Magneplanar information, I don't think you should dismiss the subject too lightly. I admit that it is a double-edged sword, because if you suggest improved components or design, the obvious question is why you don't put them in the speakers in the first place. Nonetheless, I suspect that a large part of the Magneplanar user population are "audiophiles" (whatever that means) and therefore do want to get the best sound out of their Maggies, so how to get that "best sound" is certainly one area you should deal with.
- Pete
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Dawnrazor 15:15:53 05/29/09 (1)
Hey Wendell,

Here are some questions that I have had about the maggies and magnepan:

1. On your site under FAQ, you mention that one should buy as much "resolution" as you can afford regardless of room size. But I have heard bigger maggies in the same room as smaller ones and it sure did seem that they were too big. The site is pretty vague about how to treat too much bass. How does one do it?

2. I have modded the crossovers on my mmgs and dramatically improved the resolution so much so that a 1.6 owner who heard them was upset because he thought my mmgs sounded better than his 1.6s. In relation to the first question, why wouldn't I just buy a smaller maggies and address the crossover issues?

3. Where are the 1.6s with a true ribbon tweeter? Word on the street is that that is what Steve has at home.

4. Why was the 10 series discontinued? And the 2.6s?

5. Isn't the series crossover as was used in the smgs the best crossover for all quasi ribbon mags?

6. Why aren't magnepans set up for active biamping like the Newform Research models are? I had to do a lot of work to get my mmgs ready for that:

7. Any plans for active maggies. I could see a market I think for music lovers that just want to get rid of the clutter and with the digital amps being so small these days...

8. Many inmates have added RF chokes to their maggie drivers. These have helped significantly to reduce harshness. Al Sekela has been saying that maggies make great radio antennas and has advocated using the chokes. He is dead on. Having heard their effects, I could never take them out, and it is a big shame that as easy as it is to add one many people wont do it. And, with all the wireless networks and the enlightened audiophiles moving to computer based playback this could really hurt maggies rep.

9. Can you bring back the old promo called the "Deal you cant refuse?" where you get dough if you sell 3 pairs of maggies to friends in one year? That program rocked.
- RE: brain storming with Magnepan - jgrisso4@utk.edu 14:19:49 06/05/09 (0)
  Dawn, I have heard you refer to RF chokes now a couple of times. Specifically, you recommend replacing the resistor in the tweeter section with something like a Mouser choke. Are you talking about the attenuator or the 1 Ohm resistor , or both? I looked up those chokes, yet they bore little resemblence to a 1 Ohm resistor or an attenuator when described in electronic terms. How does one choose this choke, because I don't like the idea of any unnecessary parts in the signal path? Meanwhile, I will keep reading in an attempt to minimize my ignorance.
  Thanks,
  Joel
Fantastic! - neolith 15:14:34 05/29/09 (0)
The are several threads that pop up on this forum over and over again, such as what to look for in an amplifier (high current, tube, SS, Class D?), tips on set-up (how far from the wall, spacing, toe-in, tweeters in/out), bi-amping, upgrade components (more expensive caps, air core v. metal core inductors), speaker choice with regards to room size. Articles on how Magnepan voices their speakers and choose the crossover orders and slopes would certainly be welcomed. Most of us would probably be interested in new developments. Also Magnepan has remained silent about stands, braces, wood frames, etc. and it would be great to have your input. Several ideas have appeared on this forum that Magnepan could easily incorporate (better quality connectors and RF chokes come to mind) and it would be great to have a mechanism to convey this information back and forth between manufacturer and users.

I plan to procrastinate my demise for as long as possible. In the meantime, I practice by putting off all the little stuff.
RE: Welcome Wendell - gentlegiantfan 15:10:11 05/29/09 (1)
Hello,

I'm still not absolutely certain I grasp exactly what it is that you want to do or the logistics involved ... but I will say that if the intent and purpose is to establish a better raport and communications with your customers, then by all means, do it! It will be a good thing.

Scott A.
- RE: Welcome Wendell - maggieman 15:19:56 05/29/09 (0)
  Agreed. Us Maggie owners are a very loyal breed and many good questions/ideas/suggestions pop up from time to time and there sharing of knowlege & suggestions could be a very good two-way street.
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - wendell diller 15:07:50 05/29/09 (1)
The underlying theme is efficiency.

I envision watching for a trend of thought and then writing a "think piece" on that subject. "When will the Mini Maggies be on the market" is on the mind of a lot of customers, but does not warrant a "think piece".

Many of you are interested in cost-effective ways to improve your Maggies. Yes, I think that warrants an article at some point, but does not address a very wide audience.

What is of interest and gives the most people something of value?

For example, there are MANY thousands of MMG customers. Most are middle income and are really feeling the pain of this economic crisis. What could they do for little money that would give them more enjoyment? The vast majority are not about to modify their speakers. What are some steps they might consider? Their summer vacation will be modest and maybe they would rather invest in "cocooning" by improving their music and home theater system.

So, I'll continue to watch this thread and talk to customers on the phone to get some ideas of common interest. My other passion and involvement is conservation in Minnesota. But, I don't think the boss would allow me to put a think piece on our website.
- RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Jallen 06:32:05 05/30/09 (0)
  Welcome Wendell, Your presence is a pleasant surprise and will be appreciated in whatever capacity that involves.
  Perhaps one of your passions can include the endorsement of the "boss" in the future by combining a small percent of the sales of a product, (perhaps the small or "mini maggie" intended for very wide market appeal) to be designated for conservation either locally, globally, or domestically. Groups such as the Nature Conservancy, National Audubon Society, represent only a few of the conservation oriented groups present with biodiversity conservation goals. This could be combined with promotion in publications of the above listed organizations and or others which could also widen the appeal of Magnepan Speakers, and reach a wider audience for reasons not confined to music reproduction alone. The above listed organizations have magazines which distribute in high numbers and are filled with many advertisers who believe their audience will make their promotion worthwhile.
  Many people I know in the conservation community also have a deep passion for music and are delighted when they hear my 3.6's sing their song. A common statement is "they never knew that reproduction of this level was possible", and "there are still speakers made here in the USA?"
  
  Just an idea.............Jallen
That's a wonderful idea!!! - stevenk 14:45:43 05/29/09 (3)
I've been lurking on this forum for years now and I know two topics keep coming up:
1. So many people mod their maggies with higher quality caps, binding posts, wiring and inductors, would it be possible for Magnepan to introduce higher end "elite" versions of the 1.6 and 3.6 for instance, with top of the line parts for non-modders?
2. Many here have experimented with hard wood frames in lieu of MDF frames with great sonic improvement. Would Magnepan consider using hardwood frames perhaps in the "Elite" versions listed above?

Thanks for checking us out. There are lots of Magnepan devotees here.
- good idea....might be a problem though - mbnx01 10:59:40 05/30/09 (2)
  I'm intrigued by your idea of a 'elite' version of Magnepans. However, this kind of product differentiation can be confusing to the general public. Then you get into the 'dealer now has to stock two products' problem.
  
  Personally, I'll bet most dealers would only want the elite versions.
  
  And I know I certainly want a pair!
  - RE: good idea....might be a problem though - Jim Treanor 12:40:35 05/30/09 (1)
    Product differentiation and dual-stocking are certainly issues that militate against an "elite" version, but there's also what may be a far more compelling issue alluded to in Wendell's post--namely the impact an economic recession has on potential customers and therefore on manufacturers. Just maintaining sales with Magnepan's standard products may well be daunting enough in today's market without committing to an "SE" or "elite" line. Having seen what a much earlier recession did to the audio market (and my income) that time around, I doubt that even if the spirit at White Bear Lake were willing there'd be the means in terms of cost/benefit projections to tool up for such an effort. Something we audio junkies who occasionally are oblivious to everything else should keep in mind.
    
    Jim
    
    http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr
    - RE: good idea....might be a problem though - mbnx01 12:54:00 05/30/09 (0)
      Recession or no, I still think Magnepan would do well to make a better product and charge more. Not worlds better, and not a ton more, but the old line is well...OLD. There's a reason people come out with 'New and Improved Dishwashing Soap'. Products have a life cycle.
      
      And I'm seriously wondering if Magnepan sales have not SERIOUSLY dropped off this year. They might be thinking, 'it's the economy'. Well, yes, obviously. But I'll tell you this...I would like to buy a pair of Magnepans, but I absolutely will NOT do it until I find out about pricing and product details on the new little speaker.
      
      It wouldn't be the first time buzz on a new, unreleased product has cut into existing product. IMHO they better not waste any time getting that little speaker to market.
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - bobcole 14:42:44 05/29/09 (0)
Wendell, it's great to see your post and your idea. I think you should proceed, and be prepared for lots of ideas!
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - thetintdoctor 14:37:30 05/29/09 (1)
Wendell:
An enthusiastic YES! I believe I met you one time when I worked for Rick Reed in Jacksonville, FL. Anyhow, I'd also like to know about the 'Mini-Maggies". Are they real? Do you really intend to produce them? A lot of significant others would revel in these, after the "2001" monoliths we've made them endure all these years... As a bit of respectful and constructive criticism(if you want it), I truly believe that Magnepan could benefit by showing a slightly more "modern" face to potential consumers. Your company could be instrumental in bringing the wonderful virtues of Magnepan speakers to the current generation of I-Pod listeners and USB DAC'o'philes. I am 48 years old, build all my own PC's, have 2 Ipods, appx 700 CD's and 500 LP's. That I would be highly interested in a 'fresher, 'internet age' approach from you might at least suggest to you that the new 'internet generation' (i-gen, from appx. 1997 'til now) would be very interested in your products. The old guard of audiophilia, and those of us who have played and recorded music all these years is getting older. I want to be able to be surprised, excited and motivated to buy a new set of Maggies 10 years from now. In addition, I want younger folks to be inerested in Maggies, too. You have to lead the way for this to happen. Thanks so much for asking your supporters' opinions.
- RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Dawnrazor 15:21:13 05/29/09 (0)
  Hey TD,
  
  With your computer skills, you should build one of these. Way beyond just adding a soundcard or usb dac to a pc....many many leagues better IME especially when you use cplay as the player.
  - http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=27041 (Open in New Window)
RE: brain storming with Magnepan - Anji12305 14:05:00 05/29/09 (0)
A web page can be readily screened, and potential time-sucks avoided.

Much like talk radio, callers will want to discuss their own prowess, and may not offer much constructive to growing the business.

Perhaps an occasional online chat, if you want a semblance of discourse?

It might be good to have a manufacturer's page, but many follow a rapid descent into which is better, trolls or elves (ELFs?) in World of Warcraft.

If you're ready to start out, let me be the first to ask;
When are the A4 "MiniMaggies" coming out!?
Great idea, run with it I say. - grantv 14:01:51 05/29/09 (3)
Let us know further details as it progresses if you do go down this path.
- Brainstorming with Magnepan - R7-12 13:50:46 06/02/09 (2)
  Hello all,
  
  The following is just my take on Wendell Dilling’s post.
  
  IMHO, the question appears to be: How can Magnepan gain better access to, advertize, and serve those who continue to spend money on audio gear, in spite of the current economic downturn?
  
  Hence, the suggestion that “the underlying theme is efficiency”, and that writing “think pieces” would (presumably) address the questions/concerns of the majority of said consumers, who want to make general (rather than DIY) improvements to their existing entertainment systems - and thus provide a means for Magnepan to assist consumers.
  
  This would indicate to me that the people at Magnepan have good reason to reach out for ideas from consumers and users, and from those who are devoted audiophiles who love music and continually seek the improvement of music reproduction, like the people on this forum :)
  
  As it has already been stated, the general public is probably quite happy with their stock Magnepan speakers. However, that doesn’t mean these same people aren’t interested in finding ways to improve or enhance their current set-up. This may include such things as a cost effective means to incorporate dedicated 2-channel systems with flat screen TV’s and surround sound in order to achieve an A/V system that doesn’t require purchasing a whole new and separate system. Perhaps there are many consumers interested in acquiring a bass delivery system that is relatively inexpensive, attractive, and unobtrusive, but are not educated enough to make choices that best suit their needs.
  
  The problem is how to find out what current consumers’ needs are, and what they are willing to spend money on.
  
  If I were responsible for ensuring the financial health of a company such as Magnepan (a significant responsibility), I too would look at new and creative ways to encourage enhanced awareness and appeal for our products.
  
  I’m no marketing specialist but if I were to consider a few ways to address the goal mentioned above, I would focus on several key areas:
  
  1. Improve my relationship with dealers and encourage them to promote the unique solutions our products can provide their customers. This may include many elements, including: a new or improved marketing approach, special promotions, dealer/consumer incentives, product training, etc.
  
  2. Solicit help from those who are best suited to provide information concerning current consumer trends.
  
  3. Solicit the thoughts and opinions of existing Magnepan customers in order to better understand their general concerns and learn about the types of system upgrades they are currently considering.
  
  4. Seek a means to facilitate the 2-way type of interaction (brainstorming) that point 3 requires in order to respond, inform and educate existing customers about existing, new, or soon-to-be-realized solutions.
  
  It may be that Mr. Dilling is currently implementing step 4.
  
  In any event, it might be helpful to Magnepan if those of us on this forum could look at the bigger picture (i.e. how purchasing new Magnepan products could enhance our systems, or how to market to those who don’t own Maggies) rather than focus on our personal desires for improved x-overs, new wood panels, or special lines of upgraded product.
  
  Just my $0.02 worth,
  R7-12
  - They should contact the producters of 'House' - mbnx01 17:55:25 06/02/09 (1)
    And send them a pair of MMG's for House to have in his office.
    
    They would look fabulous in that set and talk about advertising!
    
    House is quite the audiophile, I could definatley see him with a pair of Maggies!
    - RE: They should contact the producters of 'House' - R7-12 18:04:20 06/02/09 (0)
      Now that sounds like the suggestion of a marketing pro!
      
      Do it!

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