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Most Maggie owners know that the factory-supplied stands, although adequate enough to hold them in a vertical position, will allow the entire speaker panel to sway to and fro with a light push of the hand. One can buy Mye or Sound Anchor stands which will very effectively alleviate this condition, but many of us hesitate spending such an astronomical amount for such stands, especially without first being able to hear their proposed benefit. I'd never even considered such a purchase, only because I've always been impressed with the sound of my 1.6QR speakers just the way they are (having the space to position these 40" out from the rear wall and the room having a carpeted concrete floor helps greatly with bass response, and I should mention that biwiring with Speltz Anti-Cable was a real revelation), plus hey, Magnepan obviously feels the stands they provide are just fine, right?
I recently visited a high end shop I hadn't been to in a while, and couldn't help but to notice that the proprietor had positioned metal poles horizontally from the tops of his demo Magnepan speakers to the rear wall (the poles were each about six feet in length). He explained that this was to eliminate the inherent sway of the speakers on their stock stands, and results in an improvement in the bass. Well, the setup sounded mighty fine to me, but there was no option to A/B with and without these "supports", so I left with the decision that I just had to try this little trick at home.
The parts needed cost a grand total of $5.00: (2) thick wooden yardsticks and (2) small metal L-brackets (the kind used in construction for securing 2x4 lumber and the like). I spray-painted all pieces satin black to match the stock Magnepan stands. A single pushpin is all that's needed to attach one end of the stick to the center of the speaker's cloth-covered top (inserted about 1/4" deep into the wooden frame; pins chosen over screws for zero marring), plus (2) 1" screws to attach the bracket to the wall and (2) 1/4" screws to attach the the stick to the bracket (these are are supplied with 4 pre-drilled holes). I made no changes to the position of my speakers prior to installing these supports, being fortunate in that that 36" yardsticks were the perfect length for this project.
One very important tip: Use an L-square to insure that the supports are perpendicular to the speakers, in order to totally inhibit to-and-fro sway; I first installed these perpendicularly to the wall since it seemed a simpler task (these then attached to the speaker tops at a pronounced angle), and when I applied pressure to the speaker frames from the front to test rigidity, this transmitted into a slight side-to-side sway of the panels - This effect could very well smear imaging focus during play, since lower bass passages would also cause the panels to vibrate sideways as a result of this particular energy transmission.
There's no rocket science here - Magnepan's stock floor stands will allow their frames to micro-sway in sympathy to lower frequencies, since the mylar driver panels are moving a relatively high amount of air, thereby actually canceling a portion of the mylar panel's own movement (and bass frequencies along with it); preventing sway using a method such as described above will secure the speaker frames and allow the mylar panels to move any amount of air without this self-canceling dampening effect. I imagine that the larger the Magnepan model, the more this type of support could be beneficial (taller frames, more sway; bigger mylar panels, more air).
Ok, now for what I'm hearing: A very obvious tightening of the bass, and an enhanced openess throughout the midrange. I listened to two particular CDs both before and after installing the supports, one of these recorded with a lot of bass energy, and one recorded with a lot less - In each case, lower frequencies were cleaner and more defined than I've ever heard them. The midrange being presented with increased clarity is evidently also due to the mylar panels not being subject to the aforementioned vibration dampening effect.
A cheap and simple trick - try it, you'll like it.
Peter's explanation that my horizontal support (which attaches the speaker frame's top to the wall) is effectively transmitting energy away from the MDF frame (a desired thing) hence allowing the mylar panel do its thing with greater accuracy seems right on; I can actually feel the entire support vibrating and right out to its termination at the wall (thereby transforming the entire rear wall into a sheetrock subwoofer panel? Nah).
Makes me wonder if a more rigid support material (thicker wood, metal rod, etc) would not as easily allow an escape for said vibration from the MDF and instead in effect add structural rigidity to the frame, thereby canceling some or much of the desired effect. I'm not going to swap out my custom Home Depot yardsticks to find out if this theory holds any water, especially since I'm still marveling at the improvement this simple tweak has provided. And yes, I have done an A/B listening session with and w/o the easily-detachable supports; overall effectiveness with these in place is readily confirmed.
Quote: I recently visited a high end shop I hadn't been to in a while, and couldn't help but to notice that the proprietor had positioned metal poles horizontally from the tops of his demo Magnepan speakers to the rear wall (the poles were each about six feet in length). He explained that this was to eliminate the inherent sway of the speakers on their stock stands, and results in an improvement in the bass. Well, the setup sounded mighty fine to me, but there was no option to A/B with and without these "supports", so I left with the decision that I just had to try this little trick at home.
If after market stands are mostly about improving the bass, does this mean those of us who cut our Maggies off at 90Hz and use subwoofers can ignore after market stands?
It's not at all just about the bass. Read reviews here or on the aftermarket stand sites and you'll see many feel the biggest improvement is clarity/focus, midrange *and* bass improvements...
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So true, Grant - The more I listen, the more I hear additional attributes that were not as obvious as during the first few hours after the tweak (I suppose the yardsticks must be continuing to break-in; haha). In addition to the clear and tightened bass along with increased clarity in the mids as I'd first noted in my initial post, I also witness a new punch to the midbass, an higher presence of microdynamics, and on top of all of this a wider and deeper sound stage. In the past, CDs I would play containing my favorite music sometimes presented an "honest but not ultimately involving" quality, but now I find these same tracks seemingly jumping right out into the room (small ensemble jazz, all types of women vocals, and ethereal "space" are preferred genres) - CD after CD has only confirmed this ain't all in my head. I hope someone reading this thread will try applying these type of supports and share his own notes - A few bucks for materials and less than an hour labor for both speakers, and easily placed back into stock form leaving zero trace if not delighted. (I figure if I've attained even 50% of the benefits realized by dedicated aftermarket stands and for a 5 dollar investment, then I'm plenty satisfied - No plans for changing a thing in my current arrangement.) -M
is a good thing and a good feeling. Way to go! I had seen a dealer doing this same thing a couple years ago, using an adjustable metal rod that clamped to the top of the speaker and had a big rubber end that went against the wall. Used pressure to hold the panel in place, didn't attach to the wall with anything permanet. Looked like it created more problems then it fixed, but he liked it. Yours is a better solution.
It took a lonnng time to convince me, but in my opinion the single best improvement you can tackle can be summed up in 2 words.....crossover. Maybe that can be your next experiment. It's not a minor improvment.
Very rare shops here and there will do this. Most will not do so however, as they realize most potential customers would not be willing to do so, so it may in turn harm sales ("so if I buy these speakers I have to drill brackets into my walls...?").
That said, your understanding and results are bang-on. And your assumption is also correct, the larger the Maggie the bigger the improvement wrought by aftermarket stands. It is simple physics as you noted. Enjoy! Your system looks great.
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Thanks, Grant - Just sharing a parlor trick that cost a few bucks and 20 minutes of my time which made a nice difference. Low on the WAF scale, perhaps, but fortunately this system's in the finished basement where she rarely ventures :) -M
That's the key here. Cheap AND effective. No harm there. My wife rarely ventures into my room either, hence why it's called my room. :)
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VERRRRY interesting I say...
I'm no structural engineer but I would imagine some of the Maggie's energy would be transferred (lost) 'into the wall' vs being re-directed to it's base/frame...
But then I thought "where's the energy going without any support (ie just the stock feet)?!"
Krazzzzy
Perhaps a 'cleaner, tighter, bass' IS phantom-able in this manner...(?)!
regards-GL
"You don't have to be faster than the lion....
just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
First, I want to say we all appreciate you coming and contributing this here. However since you are obviously new to the place you do not know these are waters that are not only not unknown, they have been pretty much fully delved.
I do have to admit that why anyone would choose this route seems a bit odd to me because it effectively locks the speakers in place (am I the only person who has the need to move, dust, vac around his speakers etc...?) but I certainly applaud anyone trying to improve their stuff, and we all have to start someplace.
However, this notion that "micro swaying" is the problem is entirely incorrect. I believe the past 4 years of debate and facts had gotten that across but as I noted above, you are new here.
You are correct that doing this will have an effect, but your reasoning why is entirely wrong. All you are doing is coupling the speakers to the wall and creating a path that allows some of the vibration previously stuck on the driver to get of. That's it. The problem is the mdf does not allow the vibrational energy to escape, and it clouds the driver. You made a little escape route, and a little more is now getting off resulting in the improvement you hear. That's all it is. If you wish to solve the problem completely however you'll have to make new wooden frames for them.
By the way, mdf doesn't "micro sway" anyway. It refuses to move or vibrate at all (which is the source of the real problem) and if you tried to bend it to make it sway, it would snap instantly. Trust me, I've broken enough frames over my garbage can to know exactly how it responds.
So, I applaud the effort but your suppositions are incorrect. However the good news is you will get the exact same results attaching struts to a base which I suggest you do next, thus freeing the panel to move, be tipped, be turned, have their XO's improved etc... all things that will take them even further.
Thanks for the post.
It's all about the music...
Thanks for your response, Peter. Yes, I'm new to this forum, but not to Magnepan (bought my first pair, the then-current IIA, in '78).
Perhaps "micro-flex" is a more accurate term than "micro-sway" when discussing inherent MDF vibration (I was mainly describing the movement of the entire speaker panel relative to its stock floor stand), but as the law of physics states that for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, I can't help to equate trying to hammer a nail into a board that's flapping in the air - Until it's got support behind it, the board and not the nail will move with each hammer whack.
Wouldn't it be nice if Magnepan manufactured their models with stiffer frames, sturdier stands and better crossover components then priced these at an additional several hundred bucks per pair? There would be no need for pricey and involved after-market mods, and we'd have the Magnepan engineers' blessing as to all parts coming together in harmony. I see owner-modded Magnepans for sale on A'gon at regular intervals, and wonder if the sonic character of these had changed to a point where they no longer sound like the speakers the seller was attracted to in the first place - Not to say improvements aren't present, just that it's easy to alter sonic signature when mod on top of mod is added and then a baseline has long disappeared. (I am fully aware of Peter Gunn and his reputation for well-considered and wholly effective Magnepan modifications, and the preceding comment directs no reflection on him or his efforts whatsoever.)
My 5-dollar 20-minute parlor-trick tweak is rinky-dink stuff in general terms and especially on this forum it would seem, but it works. And not a complete solution, it's acknowledged (not all that pretty, either, but you don't see the supports from listening position), bug again, this is just a suggestion for those who may have been satisfied overall with their stock Maggies who might want to hear what a little extra support can do to improve their sound.
By the way, you're certainly correct that this method "locks" the speakers into one place - I haven't moved mine from their current position in 10 years, and now I have the added insurance that they *won't* move :)
Best,
M
It would actually be more correct to think of the problem this way... Imagine the driver as a rectangular pool. The sound waves are akin to a rock being thrown in it's center, which radiate towards the edges...
Ideally we'd like these waves to hit the edge and simply vanish. However they do not because the mdf is like the concrete sides of our pool above. It refuses them almost completely, so they rebound and head back towards the center and when they do they hit the next wave and the two crash into each other and both wave fronts get distorted as a result. This is why magnepans do not reach their potential in stock form. It's also why under powered amps when pushed on them cause the infamous "maggie slap".
By introducing your bracing, you made a conduit to allow some of this energy to escape. Therefore the rebounding wave front is not as big as it was, and consequently does not damage the next wave as badly. However the problem still exists, you only toned it down a little. The only way to eliminate it is to make frames from wood. Wood is designed by nature to turn vibrational energy into cell friction and dissipate it as heat. So once in wood there is almost no wave energy returning back into the driver, and you'll find a maggie can actually produce mids as good as any electrostat.
People have tossed around your thought about what magnepan should do a lot here. My personal feeling is it's best as it is. There is no way they could do what we do and not triple or even quadruple the price. It's not as simple as that. And what if they do it but then stick the wrong caps in, or other parts we don't want or like? Then a 1.6 will cost 4 grand and you'll wind up throwing what you paid for away for the "right thing". No, it's best just the way it is. If anything, they should simply sell us the drivers alone as kits for $100 bucks a foot. That I'd be happy about :^ )
Welcome to the nut house!
It's all about the music...
I have a question Peter: how about if you drilled holes in the MDF frame - kinda like a car brake rotor? Would that allow the MDF to dissipate the standing energy better - just interested. I have 1.6's and Mye stands and only have done the fuse bypass.
There is no standing energy because the majority of it never gets to the mdf, because the mdf doesn't want it. Crank your speakers up and go feel the frames. You won't feel anything. If you took the sock off however you'd see the driver bouncing all over Gods creation. The exact opposite happens when they are in wood - the frames vibrate incredibly but you can no longer even see motion on the driver.
So I am sorry to say it would not work.
Actually, your idea reminds me of something I saw on the Red Green show once. ( the Red Green show in case you are un aware of it) He once did a skit where he wanted to improve the mileage of his car. He reasoned that since the dimples on golf balls make them fly straighter and farther, it should work for his car, so he dented the entire body with a ball peen hammer.
It's all about the music...
PG, since you've once again defined your superior moral and mental credibility, this time by identifying yourself as a Red Green fan, perhaps you would be able to tell me whose "axe" came first? Was it Harold's or Bela Fleck & the Flecktones' Futureman?
Which one of them is more proficient, is probably a question that can never be answered! :)
Scott A.
Yes, I love Red Green. That show uses actual old fashioned humor, and as a result it's actually funny. And while his "Rube Goldberg" duct taped gadgets are designed to be funny, the level of creativity and insight used to come up with the notions in the first place is always sublime genius.
Like when he went to a rug store and got a carpet roll for free because it was the ugliest one in stock and they were glad to be rid of it. He then puts a tine of a forklift thru it, fills a hog trough with paint and then proceeds to paint his entire barn with the "forklift roller" in 15 minutes. It literally is the kind of thing I would do and someone like davey would get pissed off about :^ )
Anyway, a quick web surf reveals articles about Futuremans "axe" (which he calls a Drumitar) start about 2004. Harold was using his back in the 90's already, so he was first. However, the idea of playing a keyboard like a guitar goes back to the late 70's early 80's.
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As for ability, in this case I say proficiency be damned, Harolds is clearly cooler looking.
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It's all about the music...
Why would I get pissed off about that? Red Green is hilarious. I think I've seen all the episodes and usually end up laughing my you know what off.
The kind of thing that pisses me off is when I see total speculation passed off as fact....inaccurate technical information disseminated....etc, etc.
Cheers,
Dave.
Great stuff - And it all makes sense - Thanks, Peter! -M
Great little tweak for cheap! Thanks for posting this. Better stands do make a difference. Maybe a few owners will try this and then be willing to take it to the next level...
Thanks Doc - I can't take total credit though - It was a Magnepan dealer who did it first! -M
from this tweak, you should now be convinced that some "professional" stands will actually improve the sound - more so than your arrangement, I would suggest. You have locked the top and the bottom of the panels but the MDF is not stiff enough to prevent the panels from flexing in the middle. (Whereas a braced stand typically attaches about 2/3rds of the way up the panel.)
BTW, I purchased stands (actually, I had some built for a similar cost, as shipping Mye stands to Oz is very expensive) because it was obvious to me - in terms of science - that keeping them rigid would improve their sound. In the same way, making the MDF panels stiffer and replacing the dreaded staples with a more rigid method of fixing the driver to the frame will yield similar beneficial results.
Regards,
Andy
Thanks for the reply Andy, and I agree with you that an attachment lower than the speaker tops should yield even better results (this would be especially applicable to Magnepan models taller than the 5.5' 1.6QR).
This was largely an experiment on my part, and for just a few bucks have improved the sound of speakers I've been very satisfied with for over 10 years - This tweak is more an ear-opener aimed at those who use only the factory stands - Like I'd mentioned, until you hear the difference, it's tough to justify laying down serious cash for those custom jobs.
Regards,
Manxy
you should get stuck into all the things you can do yourself to improve their sound! ;-))
And then you'll wonder how come you wasted 10 years with "just" the stock speakers! :-))
Regarsd,
Andy
Haha, good one Andy - But I've spent waaaay too much time and money in the past trading equipment every week and not listening to the music - which I'm doing now, and enjoying every minute of it. By the way, this is one system of three I have in the house - Gotta spread the love equally among each ;-) -M
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An australian lecturing someone on fidelity!
You people spend the day on the beach ogling the naked bosoms of every 18 year old in town. Even when they have "clothes" on, it amounts to a string.
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It's all about the music...
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Yet it always devolves to this level.
I suppose we should face it, we're men, so we're all perverts.
Only some are more "preverted" than others....
:^ )
It's all about the music...
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Opus
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That picture is worth well over a thousand words, yet I can only think of one: SCHWIIINNGGG!!! Oh, and there seems no de-lam nor loose wiring on her schematics. ;-) I wonder if those two have their x-overs 'summed'?
Wow - this thread suddenly took a tangled turn - the photo IS better than mine I gotta admit, however...
Get used to it.... every thread eventually heads this way :^ )
It's all about the music...
...and here I thought my "supports" were minimalist...
Ye Olde Butt Floss Bikini!!!!!!!!!!!
Opus
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Sshhh... Maggie's chained in the basement (now, literally) where she can't see what's going on upstairs, so all is well... Unfaithful, perhaps, but still hopelessly attached ;-) -M
I disagree with Peter Gunn . Where he broadcasts solid wood frames allegedly being the Holy Grail of Magnepan frames . Isn't MDF (Magnepan's material of choice) made of wood ? So another perhaps solid wood product might not be an amazing leap forward . Maybe in the compression axis the MDF could be more dense than some walnut or maple with knots or defects ??
Isn't what we are looking for is an immovable structure (frame) that remains locked in dead space ? So in fact this non-deflecting frame might allow the mylar to oscillate and couple 100% of it's energy to the air ? We are looking to recover the lost energy that's absorbed by the WOOD Peter Gunn . Be it MDF , walnut , iron wood or zebra wood . So the efficiency of the mylar to air coupling can increase . Which does what kids , lowers distortion and increase overall transducer efficiency .
And Peter Gunn's comment about wanting "his" frames to vibrate and his mylar not moving . So now we need the frames to perform the acoustic workload and the mylar to act as the frame ? WTF Peter........
So adding solid wood frames is not the final word on this subject. All that comment does is potentially increase sales for Peter Gunn . Which is why he's on this forum to begin with . And sounds like a vacuum cleaner salesman at that . It's all sales driven propaganda people . One can pass his comments to a structural engineer and watch him roll in the floor laughing .
cityjim
if you're going to sound like a troll? Man up.
I guess you haven't read all the positive testimonials about wood frames, from home made to Gunn made.
So, how DID your wood frames come out?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I've read the delusional comments sure . And how the Gunnless modded SMG's have more bass than an dozen MTX Jackhammer subs . Truely believable ........... I know guys that boarded up their windows from all that extra bass .
And for me constructing wood frames , I think the mobile home look is out . Too much wood reminding me of empty picture frames over at grandma's house .
cityjim
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"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Travis' question is to the point. Personally I'd take you more seriously if I knew more about you other than that you've posted in several threads and have said nothing of value.
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