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In Reply to: RE: Oh yea, thanks! That helped a lot, especially the "in crowd" releasing weaponzied diseases part posted by Mr_Steady on February 18, 2017 at 06:21:18
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"E Burres Stigano?"
Follow Ups:
...most 1%ers probably won't make the cut. You'll have to bring something very special to the party. Audiophillia won't be one of them.
Mrs. Nasty's Bernaise & Artichokes with a nice Chardonnay. Possibly a Shafer or a 2013 Cakebread Reserve? I'm pretty sure that'll get me the vaccine.
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"E Burres Stigano?"
...maybe if you can start and run a vineyard/winery from scratch or write epic literature or lead a group of natural born leaders, just maybe. Ability to "earn" in the present economy isn't really an asset if the goal is to restart or at least preserve important aspects of western civilization as we once knew it.
Edits: 02/19/17
regulatory support for sure and I'm that guy.
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"E Burres Stigano?"
...stuff like that is part of today's excessively partitioned, over specialized and incestuous industry/government cabal. "They" will be starting over so no need for that kind of support for a few centuries or so.
and they'll have no issues with royalty owners. No State and local gubbermints. Works for me. Except I won't get the vaccine. Then it doesn't :(
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"E Burres Stigano?"
...no vaccine for you. On further consideration, none for me either.
I'm one person who has potentially mentioned the Bilderberg Group in past posts.
They are, I think, attempting to bring the world to a state of 'Soft Landing'.
By this I mean the following.
First, Disease whether man or natural caused is only ONE of the ways humanity could finish itself off.
Environment? Pollution? new Ice Age? Water? Critical Resource? Any of these and more either singally or in combination could start the ball rolling downhill.
The idea is to bring population into balance with resources both renewable and consumable.
7.5 Billion persons is clearly past the carrying capacity of this planet. They know it.
One group, which is unknown, are the folks who brought you The Georgia Guidestones.
One of the 10 commandments for the future is to maintain the population at 500 Million. That is OVER a 90% reduction from current levels.
The commandments are written in everything from Russian to Swahili. and several points in between.
I'd get Mountain House foods. 30 year shelf life and they taste good, too. But the real fringe ALSO stores WATER. If you are working you might need a gallon a day or more. That includes food prep and Minimal Hygiene. If you are in a desert or other HOT place, you might need more.
Water is heavy and you best have it where you intend to USE it.
Too much is never enough
...and that there could indeed be a global organization attempting to address this condition behind the scenes. If such an organization does exist I believe their remedy would be much more subtle than what you describe. The ideal remedy would involve creation of a device so irresistible, small and affordable that everyone would be compelled to obtain one and carry it around with them 24/7. This device would reduce birth rates and ultimately population to sustainable levels by inducing infertility thru carefully engineered RF emissions. It would also induce disinterest in reproductive activities by way of mindless diversionary games and bad music and it would lower basic intelligence by enabling participation in activities collectively known as "social media". Most of unenlightened humanity would willingly submit to this remedy without the faintest idea of what was really occurring. Oh, wait..............
Please note I do NOT describe a solution, but rather the problem. The solution is very complex and an incredible balancing act of necessity.
Given your thought, I'd say it won't work nearly quickly enough. And mainly on the wrong people.
And most parts of the world have poor penetration of your 'device'. The parts that are breeding most quickly as a general rule. Though I don't think Cell Phones are doing what you think they are or perhaps not to the extent needed.This is NOT a mythical or made up condition but rather the inevitible result of what is called 'exponential growth'.
Learn about the 'Rule of 72'. This rule will give you the doubling time given an exponential growth rate.
Population, will, given just a 1% growth rate double in only 72 years. Resource use / consumptionn works exactly the same way. The equation is proven reserves, current usage, exponential growth rate. Does ANYONE think food production will double to keep pace?
Doing that math will give you time to 'running out'.What do people THINK the Bilderberg Group does at their meetings? Play Chess? Chat about important stuff? Do 10,000$ a nite hookers?
No. The interlocking groups, of which there are 3 share a great number of prime members.
That would be 1: The Bilderberg Group. 2: Council on Foreign Relations. 3: Trilateral Commission.
They all work in concert with the BIS, The Bank of International Settlements, the 'last' creditor on the planet. I suspect even the Fed owes 'em a lot.I don't know what the limit IS, but am certain it exists. Once the limit is exceeded and the system falters badly, humanity will be 100s of years recovering if that is even possible. The idea is to balance standard of living with resource usage, pollution and food. The 'best case' will provide a sustainable future at a good standard of living for quite a number of persons. Burning the candle too quickly will bring the whole house down.
Too much is never enough
Edits: 02/19/17
I believe you credit the Bilderbergers and friends with wisdom and capabilities far beyond human.
If some limit is approached, a set of natural and possibly anthropocentric processes different than those now in effect will predominate with unpredictable outcomes....just as in the past.
Ridiculous. With All Due Respect, I don't think you've thought this thru. And the Implications.
In years past, limits reached were primarily LOCAL and created either die-offs or Migrations.
Today? No such luxury since the planet is fairly densly peopled, at least those places which can actually Sustain People. A really cool disease could be on 3 continents in 24 hours and with simultanious breakouts? Best of luck with containment.
The next set of limits will involve more than a local tribe. And indeed, the possible coming water-wars or food-wars or resource-wars will all involve whole regions and effect most everybody on the planet.
Look at where the Syrians are going. EveryWhere on the Planet from Europe to Australia.
The Green Revolution is not keeping pace with population growth. Before this is all over, we will have overfished and killed the oceans and be eating back-yard raised KoiFish. Even if we had the mythical Perfect Distribution, how long before people bred themselves BACK into starvation?
Too much is never enough
...I agree humanity is on the wrong road at the present time. My disagreement lies with the idea that some mysterious group of humans is capable of singlehandidly changing anything about it.
The natural and possibly anthropocentric "processes" I refered to cover the full range of possibilities including famine and mass starvation due to crop failures, incurable diseases, human induced climate change, massive global pollution of vital resources, global thermonuclear incidents etc. But it also includes the possibility of a collective recognition of the problems and the collective will to modify cultural norms in an effort to correct them. The latter isn't likely given the present cultural/ political zeitgeist. But it's probably more likely than the Bilderbergers or Davosie or whomever orchestrating a global "soft landing" for humanity. If anything "they" are looking out for themselves and no one else. And there aren't 500M of them.
No, of course not 500 million.
But the idea is sound. Will the USA voluntarily give up SUVs? Or overeating? Nope.
Will people with NOTHING to lose continue to do nasty things to others? Yep.
USA with maybe 5% (actually less) of the worlds population consumes WayOut of proportion to their numbers.
3rd world is being stripped of resources. Brazil Rain Forest is going away at an ever increasing rate while a feeble government does essentially nothing.
Never use regular words when Big Ones will do. And I don't mean to 'pick' but the 'full range' of possibilities are huge. And include stuff never modeled (see Club Of Rome sims) as well as interactions of known possibilities.
Do I think the Bilderbergs will succeed? Even with the help of the associated groups like the TriLateral Commision and the CFR. I'm not going into many of the others. The UN has Many organizations and don't forget the various Regionals.
But I think the 3 that I mention most DO have an understanding of what can be if growth continues in an unrestrained fashion. Is there Consensus on what needs to be done or CAN be done? No, again, which is why I don't have much long-term hope for averting (avoiding?) a major 'event'.
Let's be optimisitic for JUST a second. Where do you see as the origin of 'a collective recognition of the problems and the collective will to modify cultural norms' ?
I wish there WAS some consensus on that front but see NO sign of it at the public level. Is or Are the Bilderbers 'in it for themselves'? Possible, but not likely since once the big balloon goes up, they'll starve like the rest of us. And cease to have access to everything from fuel for their Jets and Yachts to Skiing in Switzerland and many of the good schools to which they send their kids.
Too much is never enough
We live within an immense and immensely chaotic system. Minor perturbations can produce huge and with our current level of understanding, unpredictable effects. At this point in our development, I don't believe humans are able to accurately model such systems and therefore cannot make changes to the system with intentions to achieve a specific long term outcome with anything more than a random chance of success. Good intentions are nice but insufficient.
Regarding the idea of a collective realization of the problems and a collective will to change cultural norms to address them, I have no idea how this might come about. The point is that whatever the motivation and mechanism might be, it can't be forced onto the masses by a small group however well intentioned they might be. It has to come from within the masses and be embraced as an inviolable element of their very existence.
Total agreement on the Chaos part. The world IS chaotic and largely unpredictable. But a few thingss CAN be modeled and are amenible to a probabalistic analysis. Like resource consumption. A few rules exist, too. When a resource is consumed to its practical limit, the replacement is almost always more expensive. Or more difficult to acquire Sure the asteroids contain GigaTons of resources, but are extremely difficult to obtain.
Modeling large scale stuff like the economy and effects of the various 'inputs' is of necessity, a very finite thing. And subject to lots of errors. However virtually ALL the models converge on the 'trouble ahead' conclusion. Even making certain assumptions, like Infinite Food or No Pollution still leads to problems. In every modeled scenario, something happens to 'crash' the system.
This was the conclusion in the early and primitive efforts of the Club Of Rome. The 30 year update with much better computers, far more data and a history to look back on vis-a-vie the orignal study showed a path to better models.
That being said? Well, models are like Weather predictions. You are perfect out to a couple hours except in the most dynamic conditions (tornados come to mind) while you might as well call the Psychic Friends Network if you want ot know about 2 months from now.
One thing that you CAN depend on is the math of Exponential Growth. Make an assumption, like population will grow at 1% annually and you can pretty much guarantee a doubling time of 72 years. ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL But will Food follow a similar increase pattern? And how about distribution?
The masses? They don't call 'em Sheeple for nothing. I believe that 99% of the future was 'created' by 1% of the population. 1 Tesla is worth 5 cities the size of NYC.
Too much is never enough
Your are in desperate need of a red pill.I would write you one, but it would only get deleted or worse get me on some kind of watch list. No thanks. I am kind of taken aback that you would even consider trusting Plutocrats like Rockefeller, as if they had mankind's best interest at heart. Old David is 101 and on his fifth heart transplant and still going strong. I'm sure as far as Dave is concerned, you however can go fucking die. BTW, are you marked as an organ donor on your driver's license? Dave wants to know.
We could beat up on your old dead friend Thomas Malthus. The whole exponential human growth vs. the arithmetic growth of the food supply, blah blah blah. He might be right on some meta context level at some point in the future, but he wasn't right in 1800, and isn't right when you look at the overall situation today.
The only thing I would ask you to do is look at Malthus with the benefit of hindsight. He advocated letting poor British people starve to death in order to "reduce the surplus population." Then think about today, there are many more people living on the British islands today. They are even letting immigrants in, so they must want even more people. So to what good purpose did those poor people starve to death for? All it did was give a few people a horrible death.
You have to admit that thinking you can wish away six thousands of millions of people is kind of loopy. Thinking you can kill that many is evil.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 02/22/17
This chat has all been so Civil until now.
You wish me DEAD? Is that a threat? Please clarify so I can notify the authorities of a credible Death Threat.
Now, the subject is the future. That humanity is going to go thru a fairly tight space is, IMO, not open to speculation but rather WHEN.
If Humanity, which Can take charge of its future Does Not, than we get what we deserve. One way or another the population will be reduced. War? Famine? Fresh Water? Pollution? Lack of Doctoring? I list only a few of the tip-of-iceberg possibilities. How does my seeing this make me guilty of murder?
On a population-per-square-mile basis, Earth is nearly Deserted. OTOH, most habitable land is taken. Bangladesh is a good example with OVER 3000 persons per square mile! That's nearly 5 persons per Acre!
Some countries are experiencing a post-industrial birthrate drop to below unity. Many European countries, like Germany, are in the same boat. Emigrees make up the difference, work real jobs and contribute.
German Birthrate is about 1.4 births per woman and is among the Lowest on the planet.
And No, I do NOT trust Rockefeller. It is simple, to me, when dealing with what I was educated to call a 'Plural Elite'. The 'Fellers are not dictators and are only one input voice into a very complex system. All the transnational organizations I've mentioned have boards of directors and a 'floating' contributing membership. Overlap in membership exists.
They are part of a Pluralistic system where many voices are heard. Just not by the general public.
What do YOU think the Bilderbergs are doing at their meetings? PingPong? Cigars and Poker?
They are obviously discussing some serious stuff and it is my fervent HOPE that they are looking at the future in which Limits will be reached. And trying to come to some conclusion on how to mitigate the coming 'crash'. If humanity gets thru this period, than all the better. Nobody will ever know if we had 'help' from such organizations or simply blundered ahead.
While the Green Revolution HAS worked wonders, the reaction of nature is still in the future and the 'best laid plans of men', so to speak. An Agri-MonoCulture is a bad idea. Just ask the Irish of 1845 when the countries population dropped over 20%, about evenly split between those leaving of their wish and those who perished. These days? No country on Earth could absorb that % of population or afford to lose them. But humanity is setting itself up for problems with the few cultures of Corn and Wheat currently grown. I've been thru parts of Mexico where there are dozens of varieties of Corn. Really neat and produce a variety of flavors and possible dishes based on them. And BTW, I don't know if anyone knows WHERE corn came from (the ancestor plant of all modern varieties) Such variety is quite resistant to a single point of failure.
I'd LOVE everyone to have a long productive life. Hell, live to 100. But I don't see it happening as Humanity breeds itself into oblivion. The population reduction is going to come (almost) no matter what. I suspect some time still exists to moderate the worst outcomes. I dont' 'wish' or want to pull the trigger on roughly 7 Billion persons.
What part of 'their is only so much to go around' do you fail to understand or accept?
Even this guy, who downplays Malthus has reason to be less than optimistic about the future.
https://ourfiniteworld.com/2012/12/12/why-malthus-got-his-forecast-wrong/
Too much is never enough
Fixed it. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I'm optimistic about the future, but that's a different issue.
It's interesting that Germany and Japan have the same low birthrate, but Japan is simply going to live with the generational imbalance. So there is more than one choice.
You did mention those great organizations the CFR and the TLC. You do realize they were both started and are owned by the Rockefellers? The CFR was started by JD Rock in 1921 to move the US govt into getting the whole world's oil, then it went to minerals. Not exactly saving the planet is it?
Times have changed. The plural elites have become less in number. We've always had a civil oligopoly. One that was concerned with passing laws to protect it's property. That left room for the free yeoman to thrive. There is such a thing as a ruling oligopoly, like say modern Russia. It may be that our oligopoly is morphing, and there will be less room for the free yeoman, or maybe none at all. I don't want to be ruled by an oligopoly, and I certainly don't want to be ruled by a supranational unelected oligopoly. I don't care what they promise. Population concerns can take a big back seat to that.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
As a matter of fact, you are Incorrect about the CFR.
It was an Offshoot of 'The Enquiry' of Woodrow Wilson. An early ThinkTank, if you will.
In Europe, they met their counterparts and essentially merged. This was an informal part of the WWI settlement process and not part to any treaty.
Walter Lipman was an early member as was a guy named House.
This is NOT to say that in some fashion a Rockey wasn't involved. I don't think I've ever seen the complete list of members or the abrieviated list of those who went with Wilson to Europe.
I am less familiar with the TLC.
I believe that at least in this case, the WIKI can be pretty much trusted.
Customs and traditions will come under increasing pressure in the future. Free Yoeman (shades of Captain Kirk!) will have less and less 'space' as government becomes more paternalistic.
It is perhaps Wrongly attributed to an early 'Rothschild' (red shield) the 'He who controls the money controls the government'. I may be mangling the expression. This is mid-1700s some time.
Too much is never enough
No not at all. Saying it from Dave's point of view. Geez. Literary license.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
In the Immortal Words of Groucho Marx,
'License? My Dogs got a Million of 'em!'
Too much is never enough
We should summarize and see where we Disagree and Agree.
Start with Basic stuff and go from there.
Too much is never enough
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"E Burres Stigano?"
...the bored is examining a major redesign of this website and has engaged the services of bulletin board "consultant" to that end. Betcha two big changes will be the addition of a "like" button AND mobile friendship. Yeah!!!
When's it gonna happen?
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"E Burres Stigano?"
Happeing NOW. Bilderberg meets regularly and if you saw the list of just the invited attendees, you'd blanch.
Bill Clinton? Henry Kissinger? Both have been invited to speak / attend
What do you expect? Somebody flips a switch and it's all better? The problems are very deep, cultural, religious, consumption patterns, Limitless Breeding, Wastefulness and even GMOs, maybe.
Several Groups are acting in concert with heavily overlapping membership. Bilderberg Group, CFR and TriLateral Commission ALL are working for similar goals using similar means.
Let me ask YOU a question? How long do you think things can go on AS THEY ARE today? 10 years? 6 months? 1000 years?
When will a critical 'knee' in the curve be reached and what IS the limit?
Unrestrained growth is the problem and must be addressed for humanity to go forward.
Too much is never enough
textbooks titled Toward A Steady State Economy. Erlichman and Erlichman wrote the course "Title" book. Prof. Daly anmd the Erlichman's predicted doom and gloom from an unrestrained economy and unrestrained population growth. That was 1972. I'm still waiting. FTR, I'm not a doom and gloomer. ALthough in a free market economy individuals and businesses work in their own self interest, I believe, in the long run, humankinds' best interest will win out. I see no problem with growth and I LOL at assertions the "elite" are planning our demise, to wit, LOL. Both books are interesting and good reads if you can find them. I just don't agree with all their tenets.
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"E Burres Stigano?"
All are derivived from the original 'The Limits To Growth' from about '71 or '72.
The 30 year update added some material while not changing the conclusions. People hated it but Not liking it and the conclusions is NOT the same as disproving it.
Unrestrained Growth will be the end of us all. At least at any reasonable standard of living with a good life expectancy. Humanity in some form will continue.
To argue otherwise is to ignore the math. At some point, and at some place, the system will malfunction and start a chain reaction. Wars will be fought over Water. One really cool Bug will decimate the monoculture of corn or Wheat or whatever the fashionable GMO is that week. Natural systems will be short-circuited.
The Lmit will be reached or, rather Could be reached on any number of fronts either individually or in concert.
Humankinds Best Interest winning out? Without humans DOING anything to make it happen? Now I'm the one in LOL mode.
The Elite doesn't want, IMO, to kill us off, but rather to limit population growth and indeed reduce population to manageable levels with long term sustainability in mind. Certainly much Easier Said than Done.
And you are of course, free to disagree. So Far, this has been a wonderful and civil chat. Too bad that 'not agreeing' also doesn't make the tenets false.
To me, and for my 0.02$, I can't possibly see unrestrained growth leading anywhere but the cosmic junk heap.
And yes, I DO have an orignal copy of The Club Of Rome report. Early computer modeling which has been modified both by events (greater reserves of some things found) and better technique. All lead to roughly the same conclusion.
And finally, nobody said humans werent' or Aren't ingenious. Doing work-arounds and improv is a very human trait. Once we fail to adapt to Chaos, our time will be as Over the that of the T-Rex.
Too much is never enough
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