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In Reply to: RE: A competition posted by raphsdad on February 01, 2008 at 09:57:09
Why ask Why? How much advanced technology was poo-pooed by those who weren't "in the know"? There are thousands, if not millions of examples. Nicoli Tesla, Ben Franklin, Stanley Steamer, Wright Brothers, anyone?
Patents once protected the inventor. Today, they are absurdly expensive and basically worthless. A little wrinkle here, or there and one can get around a patent. So, mums the word makes perfect sense.
The fact that some are all too happy to insert foot-in- mouth without having tried the item or technology (in this case the Teleportaion) that they are quick to ridicule makes them the fool, not those willing to accept that they need not know why, as long as it works, or that in the course of any hobby, one must be willing to experiment in order to advance the art.
Anyone who has been a hi-end enthusiast for more than 10 years has most likely drunk someone's cool-aid. I offer as example unbalanced circuit designs, RCA connection/connectors, lack of remote polarity control, and IEC power connections as accepted examples of inferior technologies still be employed by a plethora of supposedly hi-end audio manufacturers.
C'mon - do BETTER then that!
That argument is NOT at all compelling and leaves us in the exact same place we are right now. It does nothing to further the discussion what so ever and quite frankly is somewhat tired and lacking in substance. Here is why:
The inverse of that argument can also be equally applied very easily to the same effect. "How many *great* innovations turned out to be totally false - how many thousands, if not millions?” See my point?
Let's stop with comparing high end audio to earth shattering science. How many great innovations that have changed the world have EVER come out of the HiFi industry? People who are trying to change the world of science for the betterment of mankind generally don't try and accomplish that goal within the ranks of the hifi industry.
We audiophiles as a lot take ourselves WAY too seriously. C'MON - if you had the mind of Einstein would you really be designing a teleportation tweaks or trying to cure cancer or create a truly clean renewable energy? Look, I like to tweak with the best of ‘em, however my methods & views differ from that of the MD Crew – C'MON just for one minute let’s put down our tin foil hats & $5k power cords and think about the stuff we are saying.
The phonograph, radio, TV to name some big ones. Commoners can now enjoy entertainment that used to be the province of very few people in very few places.
The automobile was good too, commoners can now travel. There are a few other things such as dynamite, penicillin, calculators, telephones...
Unless you've lived through a transition it's hard to recognize the magnitude of the benefit as you take it for granted. Which is what you are doing with HiFi. It's an important, good thing which deserves to be perfected.
Rick
I think you are confusing the issue. Let's not go to far out on a limb here. The HiFi Industry did NOT discover radio, TV, or the Automobile.
Again, here in lies my point regarding the audiophile community - does not TV & Radio have a LOT more purposes outside of the audiophile community? Hmm like public communication, emergancy broadcasting, the ability to talk to someone in space, the ability to send pictures of other planets from space, etc, etc, etc.
but being conduits of culture (including advertising and propaganda) are huge for communication systems. For most people that is probably the main benefit. Never underestimate the bread and circus effect. Take football for instance... Here is a test, what percentage of time and bandwidth do you use on the internet for entertainment as opposed to business and practical matters? Don't forget that news is entertainment.
Trying to understand and improve the home audio experience is a noble cause, bringing enhanced enjoyment and helping further the state of the art. Truly a worthwhile hobby.
Rick
Hey Rick,
They are all valid points. My point was simply that earth shattering scientific discoveries are not being generated within the hifi industry.
Whether trying to understand and improve the home audio experience is a noble cause or not is another matter!!! :) (You, me, and other audiophile loonies agree, but others may call us crazy - and to some extent they just might be correct. But yes, I also agree it’s a noble cause and am very thankful for guys like Kevin Hayes, Joe Curcio, etc)
There is great ENGINEERING being done within the HiFi industry, and let's give credit for that. But with VERY few exceptions, that engineering work is based on existing science. (Those very few exceptions are discussed at length within this forum)
I do not believe it is creditable to say that new scientific frontiers are being discovered within the audio industry. I would also bet that if you asked the any of the key industry players/designers/manufactures/engineers within the community they would tend to agree. With the exception of Clark, who I think only he himself would classify as a "key" industry player - most of these guys would classify themselves as Engineers - not scientist.
I actually don't disagree with you Rick. Where I depart is when folks start comparing the work of Einstein, Pasteur, etc, etc to the work being done in the HiFi industry. It's just silly in my opinion. It’s a matter of perspective for me and let’s just face it – making our stereo’s sound 3% better is not going to get us any closer toward being able to travel to Mars and back.
Why thank you! If I had any sense I'd quit while I'm ahead! But...
Home audio is indeed a noble pursuit, trust me on this as I'm clearly older and wiser. Some day you will thank me. As for folks thinking we're crazy, we WOULD be crazy to care what they think. I don't dare quote R. Feynman as that would break commandment 12 but I have always been pleased that he agreed with me.
From the tenor of your posts I sense that you that feel that home audio is somehow unworthy technically and pragmatically compared with say rocketry and communications. Having worked in those areas, I hold the opposite view. I'd say that home audio is more difficult because it's interfaces are so poorly defined and the minimum performance levels are vague. And I know this may sound strange, but beyond the engineering aspect, there is the social one and rockets are usually a force for bad, while home stereos usually work for good. At least when I read Stereophile there isn't an ad asking me "How's your kill ratio?". Burrrr....
Rick
between pure science and applied engineering. Most 'pure' science will lead to applications, and the application engineers/scientists often hasten and promote the maturity of preliminary designs, increasing efficiency, size, and practicality. Widespread applications then lead to the economy of scale in mass production.
One can see this in many electronic components. Fast recovery diodes has certainly pervaded every catalog I have seen and the number of manufacturers offering them has increased significantly. While necessary for switching power supplies, it has enabled digital amplifiers to succeed where similar designs in the 70's failed. Once where 5% resisters were the norm, 2% is common place and 1% or better resisters are almost as common.
High end manufacturers/designers have pushed the envelope themselves, too. A decade ago Faroudja line doublers and quadruplers were astronomically expensive and dependent on programmable chips. You find their technology in $100 DVD players today. Matti Otala developed the testing procedures and wrote up the effects of TIM distortion and a new measurable effect then entered the engineering world.
Application engineers definitely have their place in the world and their efforts should not be denigrated. Many if not most scientific research is being done with an eye for practical application anyway.
Stu
Hi Stu,
On behalf of hard-bitten Ap. engineers everywhere, thank you!
You are ever so right about fast diodes, low ESR caps, low L Isense resistors and other stuff for switchers. These things just didn't exist 20 years ago. And we could have used them then but there wasn't a large enough driving force to make it worthwhile for the manufacturers.
This is either the best or worst of times, and I can't tell. While there are far more parts to choose from with "rich" feature sets, it's also very time consuming to source them. It can easily take half a day for one passive part. And things are more dangerous than they used to be, once dropping the 39 page Mouser catalog on your foot was nothing, the current 2000 page version can put you on crutches!
Regards, Rick
...any technology that provides or enhances it merits our closest scrutiny.
clark
Just because someone is scientifically inclined, doesn't mean they have to make a concerted effort to save/change the world. Hell, plenty of scientific breakthroughs were laboratory accidents.
My company sells a soil-based probiotic- Pet Flora. It is extraordinarily effective at resolving GI imbalance and a cornerstone to health of an individual or pet. Pet Flora is available today as a result of a research scientist observing dogs eating grass some 15 years ago. Upon careful examination, he found the dogs were pulling at the grass to get at the soil-based probiotic organisms, which as it turns out, is the primary reason why they eat grass- not the grass itself!
Ever heard of cross pollination? Who is to say what impact Teleportation might have on someone specializing in the field of hearing impairment? I can't recall who, but many yers ago I read where someone in hi-end manufacture was working on hearing aids. Lots in common there, don't you think?
That was Thomas Edison! Ever hear his Diamond Discs? They were the best records then!
"Plenty of scientific breakthroughs were laboratory accidents." Yes, serendipity. The whole phenomenon upsets those with conventional views of "scientific research", so they rarely mention it.
clark
Scientifically inclined and Einstein are two TOTALLY different sports – much less even being in the same ball park. The "look at Einstein. Pasteur, etc, etc” example is incredibly unimaginative and equally ineffective. That is my point – at least try and come up with a well balanced and grounded position that can be discussed in a manner that at least provokes thought. Invoking the great names of science as a position of justification for the TT theories is at best weak and really just says there is not much other substance.
My point is simply – COME UP WITH A NEW ARGUMENT ALREADY! At least try and make people think!
No matter how much you may want it to happen – new science is not being generated within HiEnd audio. New circuit designs, new cap designs, new wire designs, absolutely! Our fundamental understanding of how atoms function – absolutely not! One is taking existing science and further improving upon current applications through DESIGN improvements. The other is fundamentally changing our understanding of the way the world works!
> > > "I can't recall who, but many yers ago I read where someone in hi-end manufacture was working on hearing aids. Lots in common there, don't you think?" < < <
THAT would be May and Peter Belt !!!! In 1985 - 22 years ago !!
Peter working on the technique and May working with the ENT consultant and his chief technician at one of the UK's leading teaching hospitals !!!
Regards,
May Belt.
a
Especially this last comment of yours
C'MON just for one minute let’s put down our tin foil hats & $5k power cords and think about the stuff we are saying.
Stop invoking the name of people like Einstein and Pasteur as a valid argument. It's a crutch and a pretty weak one at that.
My point was that audiophiles tend to get so deep into this hobby that we start comparing the world of audio to stuff like cancer research. I think that is totally SILLY. I would trade every hi end component mine and yours ever produced for a cure for say MS, Autism, Cancer, etc, etc.
Starting to get my point?
Only the most totally conventioanl thinking can pass muster.
clark
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