High Efficiency Speaker Asylum

• The price of AN speakers... - RGA 18:02:47 01/11/06 (0)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  I can;t talk about AN Japan but AN UK (a totally different company) has a similar approach to their loudspeakers.

  The AN E (based on the Snee Type E) has 10 different versions starting at abou $4,500 for the base model and going to $125,000.00 for the top model. They also have kit variations which are cheaper I think starting at $1k without cabinets. (The $125,000 version has very large external crossovers directly wired and has roughly $40,0000 worht of Silver alone...pricey yes mark up is relatively low in this industry. And really was only built buy the owner for the owner though a few have been sold apparently.

  I can't defend prices because what someone pays is up to them but I have heard several versions of the E and the J and the improvement in sound from one level to the next is really quite remarkable.

  It's a tough sell to the average buyer though because you can;t SEE the difference. If you pay $700 for a B&W 602S3 and you decide to pay $1200.00 for the 603S3 you can see more cabinet and another driver. The question though is di the sound improve any? Yes certainly you get another octave - but you also got more box resonance and overall a worse sounding loudspeaker even though you paid $500.00 more money.

  AN UK improves the wiring and caps and crossovers -- and somewhere along that scale there is a shift to Alnico wooffers. There is also an HE version which raises the AN E from a 94db speaker to a 98db sensitive speaker.

  The matching process of drivers and drivers to the cabinet are the tightest of any manufacture in the speaker indsutry and the higher models are more time consuming to build.

  As an example of how critical that process is I heard a KIT version of the AN E and it simply is not possible for a DIYer to get the same AN sound that AN gets with their speaker. I mean it's like listening to a whole other speaker that has a resemblence of production AN speaker and still good mind you but lacks the magic fairy dust.

  I have been told that AN Japan's speakers are what lets down Kondo's great front ends.
  
  

  ---
• The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind - Christopher Witmer 00:21:31 01/11/06 (9)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  While I was doing Japanese-English interpreting for the folks from Feastrex at CES, I was quite happy to hear a gentleman walk in and introduce himself as Steve Schell. Having traveled all the way from Tokyo, it was great to finally meet this heroic modern-day audio adventurer who I had previously known only through his online writings. I was even more thrilled when I learned The Horns were actually being exhibited at CES and that I was invited to go listen to them after hours that evening. Feastrex's engineer Mr. Gotoh was also looking forward to the visit because he launched his career in speaker design with Maxonic, the Japanese manufacturer of field coil compression driver horn systems that went out of business after the president died in Japan's worst-ever aviation disaster in 1985. Mr. Gotoh subsequently worked for Fostex but his inability to get high-end alnico and field coil drivers out of his blood was one reason why he recently moved over to startup Feastrex. He is familiar with WE components but the RCA drivers were entirely new to him.

  The listening experience I enjoyed that evening was something I'll never forget. When they performed at their best, listening to those horns was truly an epiphany of the most sublime and delightful sort imaginable -- indeed, beyond imaginable. (And that was even before the bottle of 12-year-old Jameson Irish Whiskey started going around the room.) And listening to them when they were at their worst was also an epiphany. I guess that in a few hours I was taken on a whirlwind tour of the audio equivalent of Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradisio. Since I'm pressed for time here, rather than cover every single impression I received, which would necessarily involve some repetition of what others have already said, I'll just put down what I feel are the most important points, as they come to mind.

  I'll second what others have said about the Welborne Labs power amps. Very, very good stuff.

  I'll also second what Jonathan told me -- the fact that Steve is a GOOD piano technician makes a world of difference to their speaker development. Even many professional classical musicians do not have good ears! But a good piano tuner (one who can actually hear the fine differences in tone, rather than simply counting beats) is going to have a good ear for debugging. With a cone transducer you can do all sorts of computerized tests and measurements (a la Klippel) that will expose problems lurking in your cone transducer. But these guys have only their ears to guide them. That, and the flames shooting out of the sides of the drivers. (Just kidding.)

  Kudos on the efforts to minimize the effects of the terrible room. I guess every garage builder goes through the same learning curve, especially if they have never even attended a show like CES before, but the total lack of any means for dealing with room effects was a serious handicap for Feastrex, although opening a window did help lessen the effects of standing waves that initially made the part of the midrange sound harsh. I guess Rich was mainly responsible for what Cogent had done and it was truly commendable.

  The first piece we listened to -- I never asked the title -- was a small-scale (maybe four or five voices) a capella male vocal ensemble, and it was truly a mind-bending experience. The detail was incredible and the imaging was excellent. It sounded like I was listening through a pair of headphones. It sounded like the bass singer was going to swallow me whole. O come quickly, Noman, with your fire-hardened spear, and rescue me from the maw of Polyphemus! Noman never showed up but the song ended just as I was about to be dropped down the esophagus. Whew! That was close.

  I can't remember what we listened to next, but I remember thinking to myself, "Hey, I thought this system lacked a tweeter! I sure can't hear the absence of the tweeter." I suppose perhaps a jazz drummer's brushes might have had a hard time coming through – perhaps they would have been lost entirely -- but I was reminded of how little information there is above 10kHz. After all, the lowest note on a typical 88-key piano with modern tuning will be about 27Hz, but the highest note on that same piano will be about 3.5kHz, and even the piccolo does not go much higher (at least the fundamental frequency): about 4.2kHz. Surely the full range up to 20kHz is important in the big picture, but the Cogent system hardly seems to suffer for want of a tweeter.

  Some recordings sounded better than others, for various reasons. I'm just guessing here, but this is what I suspect:
  * Some closely miked recordings can tend to sound (to varying degrees) like you have your head sticking out of the business end of the microphone and are staring the sound source in the face.
  * Large-scale orchestral works have the potential to sound as good as they possibly can on any system. (Setting aside the fact that there are some horn resonances that remain to be eliminated.) Part of this is due to the fact that there are enough things going on simultaneously that our brains can't process everything well enough to pick up on any problematic aspects of the reproduction (e.g., time coherency, etc.). I never dreamed that the Great Gate of Kiev in Ravel's orchestral adaptation of Mussourgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition could be this glorious. From now on, when I listen to that piece on mere mortal speakers, I will have to call it the Humble Rabbit Hole of Kiev.
  * With small-scale ensembles or solo pieces, some instruments (and perhaps it also depends on what music the instruments are playing at the moment) handle the crossover from the bass horn to the midrange horn better than others. I did not notice any glaring problems with the piano pieces that I heard, for instance. However, on some solo cello passages, I could clearly hear the cello bobbing up and down as it moved between the bass horn and the midrange horn. This may be due in part to timing problems (no digital domain phase correction was being implemented at the time, which I consider to be a big no-no), but in any case it occurs to me that perhaps solo cello pieces are among the best for Cogent to use in "stress testing" of their system.
  * The absolute worst-sounding piece of the night, by a mile, was the part in Camille Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 in C minor 'Organ' where extremely deep bass chords of the organ were overlaid by strings. To get an idea of the intermodulation distortion that filled the room, just imagine Godzilla trying to sing Schubert's Ave Maria while gargling. In all fairness, I think the problem was primarily due to the lack of digital domain time alignment of the drivers, but I hope Steve and Rich will confirm that. If it should ever turn out that the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony cannot be played well on this system, it would be the letdown of the century.

  To a degree it depends on the piece being played, but I would say as a general rule this system should never be played without digital domain time alignment of the drivers, even if it means AD conversion of analog sources. The fact that in the case of phono records equalization can probably be accomplished with less distortion in the digital domain than in analog partially offsets the AD-DA processing that I am sure will bring no smile to the faces of analog purists. I'm not keeping abreast of such matters but I would also expect that there should be some good solutions for suppressing pop and crackle noise in the digital domain. In any case, without that time alignment of the drivers there are going to be problems, at least with certain pieces. Going to a non-horn subwoofer could also alleviate the problem somewhat, although it also exists between the bass horn and the midrange horn. Another possibility (in an actual installation) would be to have the subwoofer horn driver located just as far BEHIND the listener as the main speakers are in FRONT of the listener, and the listener essentially sits right in or next to the mouth of the subwoofer horn. Then the only time alignment issue would be the (relatively) less serious one of that between the bass horn and midrange.

  I think it would be a lot of work for them to do so, but I really think it would be an improvement if the "midrange" horn and driver could be redesigned to cross over considerably lower, directly to the subwoofer, even if the resulting midrange could only be used up to around 5kHz. This might require a redesign of the subwoofer as well, and possibly the creation of a new driver that is sort of a cross between the two RCA drivers now being used, but the great advantage of this is that imaging would be impeccable. Instruments like the cello and contrabass would still be crossed over between two horns, but at 125Hz or lower it would be very hard to hear any instrument moving from one horn to another. In other words, near-field listening would be greatly improved. The result would be horn system much more amenable to use in small rooms. (And it would be better in large rooms too, assuming all other things are equal.) Again, above 5kHz there is very little information and our hearing sensitivity is falling off anyway, and asking a tweeter to handle the range from 5kHz to 20KHz should be no big deal.

  In this context, I think Steve and Rich should take a look at the old Maxonic curled horn with a cutoff frequency of 125Hz. So much of what Maxonic made was simply copied (literally -- parts were interchangeable) from Altec and WE, with excellent quality control and sometimes significant performance enhancements, that I can't say for sure whether this horn is in any way original with them or not. To my eye it sure looks a lot like some of the old WE horns. But in any case Mr. Gotoh said it really did sound fantastic -- better, he claimed, than what Steve and Rich are currently implementing -- between the crossover frequencies of 200Hz and 8kHz. The crossover slopes were not steep either (this is late 1970s and early 1980s technology), so with a modern digital crossover one could push those crossover frequencies out even further. I do know that the drivers (based on the WE555) were specially modified to work properly across such a broad bandwidth on this horn. I have never heard the horn but Mr. Gotoh said it achieved much better coupling with the air of the room than the J-horn that Steve and Rich are currently using.

  Then again, maybe I shouldn't be asking Steve and Rich to consider these changes. Because if they implemented them and they worked, I might just buy a set, and then what would my wife say? As a matter of fact, she wouldn't say anything, she'd just start packing her bags to leave me. But wait, there is still hope. As long as I could get them hooked up properly and playing music before she was out the door, I know she would never be able to leave. The music would draw her back irresistibly into the room and nail her to the chair that I had prepared for her right in the sweet spot. And there she would sit dumbstruck, never to rise again, with a look of sheer bliss on her face.
  
  

  ---

  • So: How do they compare with the 4"-ers? - paul_s 09:30:25 01/13/06 (0)
    In Reply to: The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind posted by Christopher Witmer on January 11, 2006 at 00:21:31:

    I was surprised to read that your impressions of this speaker system are so close to my own, because I had gathered from your previous posts that you are a mini-monitor apologist, and these are anything but small!

    THE thing that struck me as unique about the mid-horn was that it effortlessly reproduces the natural 'rough edges' of notes without over-shoot or any impropriety on release. Simply amazing, realistic, natural performance over about 2 glorious octaves; in fact, the best I've heard, apart from the horn coloration you cite, as the horn kicks in. I can certainly understand how someone could get drawn into this thing.

    Best regards,
    Paul S
    
    

    ---
  • Re: The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind - Steve Schell 13:54:21 01/11/06 (1)
    In Reply to: The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind posted by Christopher Witmer on January 11, 2006 at 00:21:31:

    Hi Christopher,

    I really appreciate your thoughtful and detailed comments on our late night listening session. It was a highlight for me as well. Many thanks to the fellow from the San Diego audio club who showed up with the Jameson!

    A lot can be learned from an experience like this, shlepping a 15' truck full of stuff to a distant location and setting up the system to hopefully sound its best in an unfamiliar room. The room size (14' by 19') is actually pretty similar to my listening area at home, although the construction of the hotel is a lot more solid with the slab floor. My house is on a foundation and the listening room opens up to several larger areas; it manages to sound less tomb-like somehow. The extreme nearfield listening position is about the same, though.

    There were several times during the show when I detected that both the midrange and midbass drivers were being modulated by out of band lower frequencies. The Camille Saint-Saens Symphony that you cited was the worst example. I believe that in this case the 300B amps were being run out of power by the extreme organ pedal fundamentals present in the piece, hence the gargling and tremolo sounds we experienced. There was no high pass filter to keep these frequencies out of the bass/midrange amps, just a simple passive 6dB/oct. speaker level network between the midbass and midrange drivers.The subwoofer amp was fed from an electronic crossover, being low passed at 60Hz. at probably 18dB/octave.

    Upon reflection, we probably should have run the system with our DEQX unit, which would have eliminated all these problems as well as the arrival time errors in one fell swoop. As my Grandma used to say, "Live and learn, die and forget it all."

    In regard to the cello bobbing up and down, this is likely made noticeable by the extreme nearfield listening position. Last year at RMAF we ran the system with the DEQX, in a much larger room, and noticed no similar effect. We were crossing over between mids at midbass at 48dB/octave, which one would think would make the cello snap up and down!

    As to the overall realness of the reproduced sound, this is what has propelled Rich and I forward in our effort to resurrect the marvelous RCA center suspended cone compression driver design. In my opinion this topology offers numerous advantages not just in degree but in kind over more conventional compression drivers. The clarity, attack and overall naturalness of this type driver grabbed me the first time I powered up a rusty old RCA on my workbench years ago, and it grabbed Rich the day we met and he had a listen to my system. We are very pleased with all of the positive comments we have received since the show (including yours!) and these will help us to move forward even faster, at least after we recover from the nasty head colds we came home with.
    
    

    ---

    • Great explanation, thanks - Christopher Witmer 15:23:16 01/11/06 (0)
      In Reply to: Re: The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind posted by Steve Schell on January 11, 2006 at 13:54:21:

      Thank you, Steve. I sure hope the folks from Feastrex ask me to go with them again to the next CES so I can have another opportunity to hear your awesome system.
      
      

      ---
  • Re: The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind - Tom Dawson 08:04:36 01/11/06 (5)
    In Reply to: The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind posted by Christopher Witmer on January 11, 2006 at 00:21:31:

    How do you imagine adding digital time alignment could possibly have any effect on the distortion you claim you heard from the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony played on these speakers since you appear not to be specifically referring to transient information?
    
    

    ---

    • It's possible that IM distortion is a misnomer here - Christopher Witmer 14:16:18 01/11/06 (4)
      In Reply to: Re: The high point of my first CES -- a close encounter of the Cogent kind posted by Tom Dawson on January 11, 2006 at 08:04:36:

      Well, TIM is not the only form of IM, but it's possible that it may have been a misnomer to label what was heard in the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony as "intermodulation distortion." (I make no claim to being an expert in this area.) Perhaps it would have been more properly called a form of phase distortion. Furthermore, the small size of the room may have had something to do with it too. In any case there has to be a solution and Steve and Rich need to get to the bottom of it. Sooner or later everyone is going to want to hear the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony on them, anticipatng that it will be played with a sublime majesty unlike anything they have ever heard before. I'm sure the system is capable of meeting such expectations, but apparently it needs a few adjustments in the way it is set up.
      
      

      ---

      • Organ Symphony - hollowboy 19:42:31 01/11/06 (3)
        In Reply to: It's possible that IM distortion is a misnomer here posted by Christopher Witmer on January 11, 2006 at 14:16:18:

        "Sooner or later everyone is going to want to hear the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony on them"

        Should I read this statement as literal? Or are you just using specific example to stand in for the whole category of bass-heavy recordings ?

        If you mean it literally, I'm officially frightened of high-end audio enthusiasts.
        
        

        ---

        • High-end audio enthusiasts - Christopher Witmer 21:24:49 01/11/06 (2)
          In Reply to: Organ Symphony posted by hollowboy on January 11, 2006 at 19:42:31:

          Well maybe you should be frightened of high-end audio enthusiasts. I know I am. :)
          
          

          ---

          • One organ symphony coming up! - Ronnie Ericsson 07:18:10 01/13/06 (0)
            In Reply to: High-end audio enthusiasts posted by Christopher Witmer on January 11, 2006 at 21:24:49:

            ...in a little while on my new favourite classical channel. See link below!

            I love my new silent audio pc =)

            
            /Ronnie
            

            • WCPE program   (Open in New Window)

            
            

            ---
          • that made me laugh out loud! - Dominic 00:20:11 01/12/06 (0)
            In Reply to: High-end audio enthusiasts posted by Christopher Witmer on January 11, 2006 at 21:24:49:

            And i had no shortage of things to snigger at today! : )
            
            

            ---
• Separate bass amps - paul_s 10:29:30 01/10/06 (0)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  Thanks much for the report.

  I have also been very impressed by some aspects of field coil system performance.

  Not that anything anyone ever says will put the issue to rest, but you mention dedicated bass amps to spare the SETs. Great idea, IMO.

  Best,
  Paul S
  
  

  ---
• Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts - Steve Schell 09:37:06 01/10/06 (2)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  First, I want everyone to know what a true friend Jonathan is to Rich and myself. He flew out from NYC on his own dime to help us for the full length of the show. Jonathan excells at running the room, DJing and answering questions, while Rich and I prefer hallway speaker-geek conversations. This is the second time that Jonathan has done this; he also helped us out in a huge way at RMAF last year. This year he spent so much time in our room that I'm sure that he sadly missed out on some of those dome tweeters and ceramic woofers at both shows. Thanks, Jonathan!

  I'm not sure if we have rendered a "gaping vent" in the side of high end speakers, but I do know that it is difficult to return to small direct radiator systems after spending time with the big horns and compression drivers. I would like to think that we might help spawn a movement, with more and more horn systems appearing over time. Am I dreaming? Sure, size will always limit the market somewhat, but cost should not; I saw plenty of $40k - $70k small direct radiator systems this year.

  It is difficult demoing big horns in a small room. We took two dozen sound absorbing panels and tried to make the best of a bad situation. Trouble is, the room I would like to have at THE Show costs $18,000!

  I would also like to thank my nephew Mike and friends Brian and Mark for making the trip out from L.A. to help support our effort. It was great to have you there.
  
  

  ---

  • You should find someone/someplace in LV that will give you more space - Christopher Witmer 20:08:25 01/10/06 (1)
    In Reply to: Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by Steve Schell on January 10, 2006 at 09:37:06:

    You should find someone/someplace in LV that will give you more space, and have TWO exhibits going on -- the second (off-site) one by appointment, most likely after hours . . .
    
    

    ---

    • Re: You should find someone/someplace in LV that will give you more space - Steve Schell 21:29:16 01/10/06 (0)
      In Reply to: You should find someone/someplace in LV that will give you more space posted by Christopher Witmer on January 10, 2006 at 20:08:25:

      Hi Christopher,

      It was great fun meeting and hanging out with you and the engineers of the excellent Feastex full range drivers. To paraphrase Barry Goldwater, extremism in the pursuit of great sound is no vice!

      I have had the same thought of finding a larger room next year to properly demo our speakers. Now I realize why this is often done. Costs rapidly escalate when attending a show like this, and a large room is simply out of reach for a small startup company. Thanks much for your suggestion.
      
      

      ---
• A scaled down version in the offing?? - Rick R 07:27:34 01/10/06 (5)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  I had a chance to hear these at the Pasadena VTV expo and was very impressed, both by the sound and the size. I never could get to the sweet spot, even after multiple visits, but just standing in the room the sound was clear and direct.

  Is the large size of these horns required for good performance,or will it be possible to create smaller, more visually(and wife) friendly speakers in the future?
  
  

  ---

  • Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? - Steve Schell 09:48:48 01/10/06 (4)
    In Reply to: A scaled down version in the offing?? posted by Rick R on January 10, 2006 at 07:27:34:

    Hi Rick, thanks for your comments. We have had requests in both directions as far as size is concerned. Some folks want smaller speakers that will not dominate a room so completely. Others feel that as long as we are going all out to make the best horn system possible that we should discard all practical considerations and size constraints. I can understand both points of view.

    I think that we will be able to shrink the system you saw at VTV a bit without compromising performance. The bass horn can be made taller and a bit less deep. Its mouth can be made more narrow, perhaps the same width as our new conical mid horns. We don't want to trim too much, though. Size constraints have always hampered horn performance, and there is no fooling Mother Nature on this.

    
    
    

    ---

    • Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? - fred76 10:09:19 01/10/06 (3)
      In Reply to: Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? posted by Steve Schell on January 10, 2006 at 09:48:48:

      Hi Steve,

      Which offers a "wider" sweet spot, the Azura or the Conicals? Thanks and congrats.

      fred
      
      

      ---

      • Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? - Steve Schell 11:34:54 01/10/06 (2)
        In Reply to: Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? posted by fred76 on January 10, 2006 at 10:09:19:

        Hi Fred,

        The conicals have the widest sweet spot. The ones that we had at the show are basically square 50 degree conicals, with smooth round to square transition and a break to a second wider flare in the horizontal out near the mouth.

        The Azuras sound extremely smooth and natural, but a couple of their characteristics are not ideally suited to the peculiarities of our mid driver. The slits of our phasing plug exit the driver with about a 50 degree included angle. Any horn with less wall angle than this will present a reflective surface to the wavefront. Also, the driver response on the low end is robust and a constricted throat offers too much loading. We are fortunate that a conical flare horn offers the correct loading and uniforn pattern over a 50 degree arc.

        It is hard to argue with the smooth mouth termination of the LeCleach flare though. We are currently working with Martin Seddon on the possibility of a 50 degree round conical horn with a LeCleach-like mouth.
        
        

        ---

        • Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? - fred76 12:28:38 01/10/06 (1)
          In Reply to: Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? posted by Steve Schell on January 10, 2006 at 11:34:54:

          > > We are currently working with Martin Seddon on the possibility of a 50 degree round conical horn with a LeCleach-like mouth. < <

          
          Cool! I can picture it out now - a taller bass J-horn with slightly narrower mouth with Round Conicals (pick ur color) from Seddon, + FC BigEds and FC Supertweeters(?) optional. And maybe a separate small enclosure for the x-over/hulking oil caps. Thanks Steve....
          
          fred
          
          

          ---

          • Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? - Dominic 17:58:49 01/10/06 (0)
            In Reply to: Re: A scaled down version in the offing?? posted by fred76 on January 10, 2006 at 12:28:38:

            Ya those caps are huge!!!
            
            

            ---
• So how much for the cogents??? (nt) - Vinnie 03:36:23 01/10/06 (5)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  nt
  
  

  ---

  • Re: So how much for the cogents??? (nt) - Steve Schell 10:02:42 01/10/06 (3)
    In Reply to: So how much for the cogents??? (nt) posted by Vinnie on January 10, 2006 at 03:36:23:

    Hi Vinnie,

    Pricing on the Cogent compression drivers is $15,000 per pair for the DS-1428 midrange/high frequency drivers and $17,000 per pair for the DS-1448 bass drivers.

    We have not finalized our horn designs yet, nor what materials they will be made from. For now we will be happy to supply purchasers of our drivers with very accurate CAD cutting plans of the horns we have been using. Within a year we plan to offer a complete system, possibly with electronics as well.

    In time we hope to offer reduced cost versions of the compression drivers, possibly with permanent magnet structures and cast phasing plugs. RCA's marvelous technology of the center-suspended cone compression driver deserves to be enjoyed by the broadest possible audience.
    
    

    ---

    • LOL - - JesusHChrist 15:39:36 01/12/06 (0)
      In Reply to: Re: So how much for the cogents??? (nt) posted by Steve Schell on January 10, 2006 at 10:02:42:

      free upgrades for like too huh?

      
      
      

      ---
    • Can you provide more info on the DS 1448? - Datubie 18:28:59 01/11/06 (1)
      In Reply to: Re: So how much for the cogents??? (nt) posted by Steve Schell on January 10, 2006 at 10:02:42:

      Is it just a scaled up version of the 1428? Properly loaded, what is its frequency range?
      
      

      ---

      • Re: Can you provide more info on the DS 1448? - Steve Schell 23:29:32 01/13/06 (0)
        In Reply to: Can you provide more info on the DS 1448? posted by Datubie on January 11, 2006 at 18:28:59:

        Thanks for your interest. The DS-1448 uses the same basic motor as the 1428, but with a deeper and wider voice coil gap to accomodate the larger voice coil and longer excursions of a bass driver. The diaphragm is increased to 6.5", and the exit diameter is 4". So far we haven't tried it on a horn with a slower flare than 50Hz., so we haven't explored its potential at lower frequencies.
        
        

        ---
  • Ya I want some comp drivers - Kloss 05:55:29 01/10/06 (0)
    In Reply to: So how much for the cogents??? (nt) posted by Vinnie on January 10, 2006 at 03:36:23:

    Fess them up what kind of price?
    
    

    ---
• Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts - Dean L. 21:58:47 01/09/06 (5)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  Jonathan, well said regarding the Cogent. I would have liked to have spent a lot more time listening there. I've heard most of the "Big Guns" in the high-end speaker arena, and I feel certain that were this speaker made of a non or low resonant material and placed in a larger room, it could win a "World's Best Speaker" contest. Despite the resonant signature of the Baltic Birch plywood used to make the horn enclosures, and despite the cramped quarters, I would still have given their system best sound in show. Kudos to Ron Welborne and his 300 B amps as well. That was a match made in musical heaven.
  
  

  ---

  • Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts - Steve Schell 10:41:52 01/10/06 (0)
    In Reply to: Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by Dean L. on January 9, 2006 at 21:58:47:

    Thanks very much for your comments, Dean. I certainly agree that the large, undamped mouth panels on the horns do color the sound. Rich has always been more sensitive to this than me. There were also a couple of hooty resonances in the room that were only partially tamed by our fiberglass panels.
    
    

    ---
  • Re: "Kudos to Ron Welborne and his 300 B amps as well." - Ivan303 06:53:35 01/10/06 (2)
    In Reply to: Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by Dean L. on January 9, 2006 at 21:58:47:

    Guess you didn't hear them on Sunday with Ron's 45 amps in place.

    Even better. Quite a bit better and even more natural. At about 108 dB or so in a small room, the first 1/16 watt is critical, and the RCA Globe 245's delivered.

    Steve Schell has been right all along regarding the RCA drivers and conical horns. In the "sweet spot", listening without the influence of room modes, musical instruments sounded as natural as any system I have heard. The only limitation that I witnessed regarding room size is that it limited the size of the "sweet spot", and the difficulty Rich and Steve had in removing my fat ass from of it so others could listen as well. ;-)
    
    
    __________________________________________________
    Boo!
    
    

    ---

    • Re: "Kudos to Ron Welborne and his 300 B amps as well." - Steve Schell 11:16:17 01/10/06 (0)
      In Reply to: Re: "Kudos to Ron Welborne and his 300 B amps as well." posted by Ivan303 on January 10, 2006 at 06:53:35:

      Thanks much for your comments. This is the second show where we have used the Welborne amps and other electronics. They are pure pleasure as they sound terrific and are perfectly reliable.

      The Terraplane 300B amps have enough power to play our system at most any level we can stand. The Star Chief 45 amps do surprisingly well considering their less than two watts output power, handling most any program material well. The 45 amps have a slightly lighter weight tonal balance and perhaps a bit more detail than the 300B amps on our system. I'm hard pressed to say which I prefer. I'm a 45 guy from way back, but those 300Bs do sound mighty good.

      Chris Brady was nice enough to let us use one of his Teres 265 turntables in our room. This excellent 'table is so beautiful that it pulls people into the room to look at it without being the least bit intentionally gaudy. In a world of high end 'tables that shout "Look at me!" it seems that simple elegance wins the beauty contest after all.
      
      

      ---
    • Re: "Kudos to Ron Welborne and his 300 B amps as well." - Dean L. 11:15:04 01/10/06 (0)
      In Reply to: Re: "Kudos to Ron Welborne and his 300 B amps as well." posted by Ivan303 on January 10, 2006 at 06:53:35:

      You're right, Ivan303, I didn't hear them on Sunday, but what you say makes perfect sense. It's damned hard to beat a good 45 amp with a speaker that efficient. And, I know what you mean about leaving the sweet spot, though I didn't have any trouble leaving it. I was afraid if I stayed any longer I was going to have to take out a second mortgage on my home, and I wanted others to hear what I had just heard. I truly hope Rich and Steve can find cost efficient ways to produce this speaker without compromising sound quality, cause I genuinely feel this speaker belongs in music lover's homes, and cause I want a pair (with bass horn, of course).
      
      

      ---
  • Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts - fred76 02:29:22 01/10/06 (0)
    In Reply to: Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by Dean L. on January 9, 2006 at 21:58:47:

    > > > Despite the resonant signature of the Baltic Birch < < <

    Maybe they could use HDF panels.. I believe living voice uk's Airscout and AirPartner horns (vitavox drivers) uses HDF.

    fred
    
    

    ---
• Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts - Paul Eizik 20:05:16 01/09/06 (1)
  In Reply to: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by jweiss on January 9, 2006 at 18:49:29:

  Jonathan

  Deep thanks for your enthusiastic "real world" review of the Vegas show, the likes of which we would never see in Stereophile. I dunno, things usually break down to the Amp guys vs. the Speaker Guys. It became painfully obvious to some of us in the U.S. in the early 90's that we were years behind the Japanese in tube amp design. It seems that we have caught up quite nicely in this regard now, but it seems that all of the interesting stuff being done with horns right now is happening right here in the U.S.A. too. The direct radiator guys seem to have reached a plateau, and are just fine tuning the same old stuff for ever diminishing returns at ever greater prices. A lot of people who got into horns via the SET phenominum of the 90's eventually gave up on them, and went back to direct radiators because they just did'nt hammer on the horns enough. Thankfully people like Steve and Rich have kept push'n on the envelope.

  Anything happening for Oswald's Mill in '06? I'd like to come.

  Paul
  
  

  ---

  • Here's a link to my real-world impressions from the shows including some on the Cogent. - jeffreybehr 20:39:04 01/09/06 (0)
    In Reply to: Re: Leaving Las Vegas....CES thoughts posted by Paul Eizik on January 9, 2006 at 20:05:16:

    But I'll say it again--my friend and I thought the Cogents had the possibly BEST sound of the shows. The 'possibly' was due to the FAR-too-small room.

    That system had an alivness and tonal naturalness that was WONDERFUL and real for us. WOW--if only I had about $50K to give them for a prototype system.
    

    • http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1136849518&read&3&zzlJeffreybehr&&   (Open in New Window)

    
    

    ---

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

Upscale Audio

---

[ Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2010, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ] [ Take5 ]

---

[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]

---