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In Reply to: Re: can a big horn produce 10khz up or do i need smaller horn? and smaller comp driver? posted by Jonathan Knight on March 1, 2005 at 07:50:49:
Hello,Jonathan , for what I know, Koizumi San is now retired so Onken tweeters are no more manufactured.
May be you can ask Koji at EIFL if he has a solution?
Even if I don't feel the need to use them I'll not sell my Onken tweeters and all owners of Onken tweeters I know - they are quite a lot here in France- will probably do the same. So I think it will be really difficult for you to find a pair on the used market.
But if you can pay for, good substitutes to the Onken tweeter are Goto or Ale. They come in different models (magnets, diapragm materials) and in different prices (but even the cheaper model is quite expensive). I used to listen to a full Goto horn system and for sure the tweeter was really good (but the medium was fantastic).
I don't know very well the TD4003 but if he possess a beryllium diaphragm including the suspension as the TD4001, the peaks in the response above 10000Hz are more pronounced than with the TD2001 the beryllium diaphragm of which posess a polymer suspension. Genrally people having TD400X prefer to use a tweeter for the last octave.
For my own I found that the TD2001 used as a tweeter is excellent and one reason why is the absence of large peaks above 10kHz. Even I designed a 1200Hz horn to use them as tweeters. I still have two pairs of those horns, one in wood and one in plaster but I don't use them and at the moment as I prefer to listen to the TD2001 nearly as a full-range (in fact above 400Hz) without any tweeter the sound is so coherent! Only when lot of people come at home I eventually put one tweeter, not to have a higher treble level but to enlarge the sweet-spot.
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Follow Ups:
Hello, Jean-Michel.I don't blame you for not wanting to sell your Onkens. I am sorry I sold me ALE's, which were quite old and not very expensive. It would be very expensive to replace them with modern ALE or Goto units. How does the 2001 compare to your Onkens in terms of extension and delicacy?
I have not heard the TD4001, but the TD4003 sounded much better with a tweeter than without. I rolled it off at about 7 kHz. Still, the midrange is not anywhere near as good as the ALE units I have heard, or RCA or WE field coil drivers.
Unlike Onken or Goto/ALE, TD2001's are not difficult to find here, so I may try a pair as tweeters above 7-8 kHz.
Did the full Goto horn system you listened to belong to you or someone else? It must be a very expensive system.
Best regards from Tokyo,
Jonathan
Hello,Jonathan, that's too bad that you sold your old Ale tweeters!
You can see a picture of the small wood horns (Fc = 1200Hz) I made for the TAD TD201 when used as a mid-high driver at:
http://ndaviden.club.fr/pavillon/exemples/pav-2500.jpg
Any comparison between tweeters in general and specially good tweeters is difficult but in term of delicacy, IMHO the Onken is a bit superior to the TAD TD2001 but in term of extension there is no audible difference.
But the benefit of not using any tweeter with the TAD TD2001 is great. It is always difficult to time align perfectly a tweeter on a midrange driver, and even a very small move of your head results in a lost of that alignment.
On many instruments, there is a difference when I use a tweeter or not, and nearly always I prefer without tweeter. Even on women voices there is less sybillance (the crossover frequency being around 8kHz, when I use a tweeter, there should be no difference on voices but in fact there is).
The full Goto horn system I used to listen is jean-Yves Kerbrat's system.
You can see it on the 6th picture on:http://www.stereotimes.com/ShowreportCES05Page2.shtm
old versions of that syetm are described at:
http://aca.gr/pop_jyk.htm
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Hello again, Jean-Michel.Thank you for your quick response. It is a shame I sold the ALE tweeters. Maybe I will contact the buyer of the 5-way ALE and YL system I had and ask if he would consider selling just the tweeters back to me.
Your small wood horns look quite nice.
I would expect the Onkens to be a bit more delicate. My ALE's were the most delicate tweeter I have ever heard. They were amazingly pure and natural.
I agree that integrating the tweeter can be difficut, as integrating the midrange to the low frequency driver or horn can be difficult. It's all about compromises, isn't it? It sounds like the 2001 is easier to live with operating over a wide bandwidth than the larger TAD drivers are.
Jean-Yves Kerbrat's system is beyond the means of 99.9% of us. What do you think of it?
Kind regards,
Jonathan
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