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In Reply to: RE: Have you tried it? posted by ahendler on December 12, 2016 at 23:08:17
Hi ahendler.
You were 100% when you said, a super-tweeter adds no musical material to the music info ---that you can hear! This is something most audiophiles attempt to prove to themselves by listening to the super-tweeter itself. However doing this isn't sufficient enough to come to the conclusion that "the added ambience that's heard when using a super-tweeter is probably noise." I know what I'm talking about because I previously added a pair of Fostex T900a to act as "super-tweeters to my Dayton PS220-8 single, full-range drivers.
The T900a super-tweeters were crossed in using a 6dB crossover @ 10 kHz and covered the frequencies of 10 kHz to 38 kHz. I believe that despite the fact that I don't hear above 15 kHz, adding super-tweeters must create some psycho-acoustic effects that the brain perceives on a subconscious level. I say this because I heard the same sonic improvements to my system that you can read about super-tweeters from most anyone else who's super-tweeters.
Almost all audiophiles who've used them will say something basically like what John Potis said in his MuRata super-tweeter (TG1954: the MuRatas are true super-tweeters covering from 15kHz to 100kHz) review for 6moons: ---there's an increase in vibrancy and detail that they bring to the treble as you would expect. But that's only the beginning of their story. Cleaner, more sharply defined and more articulate bass is what will amaze you and an easily perceived bump in midrange articulation may just astound you. And add to that greatly improved transient snap, microdynamics and drive.
So no, my friend it's not just noise that added by super-tweeters. They definitely add to the enjoyment of listening to your music and in a very noticeable way...
I'm listening to: Use Me by Vanessa Fernandez
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Follow Ups:
"The T900a super-tweeters were crossed in using a 6dB crossover @ 10 kHz and covered the frequencies of 10 kHz to 38 kHz. I believe that despite the fact that I don't hear above 15 kHz, adding super-tweeters must create some psycho-acoustic effects that the brain perceives on a subconscious level."Actually, in your implementation, they usefully covered the frequency range of about 5kHz and upward, given your 10kHz at 6 dB x-over. Further, since an 8 inch driver will severely beam at upper frequencies (as well as have decreasing output even on-axis), another part of the improvement can be attributed to a better ambient sound field. This is not subconcious, it's readily and audibly apparent.
Edits: 12/14/16 12/14/16
Never said you are not hearing an improvement in sound when using a super tweeter. In the 60's when we first brought in the Dolby-A noise reduction system to our studio everybody though high frequencies were being rolled off. But when we took measurements Frequency responce was the same with or without Dolby. We spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was going on. We discovered that if you took a recording and added random noise from 12khz to 20khz there was a definet increase in frequency extension along with increased resolution in detail. So you guys are correct in what you are hearing, you just have the mechanism wrong. Interesting passive aggresive use of the phrase "my friend" or is it sarcasm?
Alan
Alan when I say " my friend " there's nothing passive aggressive or sarcastic meant on my part. To me you're one of my online audio " friends. " Now while I suppose audio acquaintance would be a closer rendition of what we actually are. I feel using the term " my acquaintance " would come off more like what your suggesting I meant! Trust me, I'm not a subtle type of person. When I'm being sarcastic or aggressive ---{ I'm never passive in my aggressiveness }--- you'll definitely know what I'm being. In the meantime I suppose this will be one of those topics where we'll just have to agree to disagree until someone does a test comparing the same exact song, in the same room, on the same audio system, at the exact same volume. And then adding both random noise from 12 kHz to 20 kHz and a super-tweeter and have people listen for whether or not there are audible differences between those two, or not. I believe it would be a waste of time for us to discuss this any further as you won't be able to convince me I'm wrong in my beliefs and I'm quite sure I won't be able to convince you you're wrong in your beliefs either. So until those tests are run, neither of us will know who's opinion is correct...
I'm listening to: Feel The Rhythm by Daria
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
This is one of the ongoing problems in audiophileland. Armchair "audio experts" develop "beliefs" which, only when reality smacks them on the head will they change, if then. This is despite that their beliefs are often unfounded, unproven, incorrect, or based on what they read in some audio magazine or from other audiophiles.
Hi Inmate!
I can definitely see some truth in what you said. But unless extensive tests are done, we'll never know who's right or wrong will we? It's quite possible one of those armchair "audio experts" you spoke of, might have actually developed a "belief" that's correct!
I recently had an a new audio friend that I met at one of our local Audio Society meeting over to listen to my audio system, a Mastersound Reference 845, Integrated amp, YBA Genesis CD4 CDP and Beauhorn Virtuoso speakers. As we spoke between recordings he asked why I had 3 different pairs of ICs, 4 different pairs of speaker-wires and 3 different digital wires. I replied that whenever I make a change in my system by replacing say one CDP with a different CDP or if add a new audio component, like the Musical Paradise MP-D2 DAC I'm looking at, then I try all these wires over again. So that I can see which one sounds best with the new system configuration!
He laughed a little and said to me " You really believe those different ICs, speaker-wires or digital wires sound noticeably different? I told him I know they sound different and I'll show you they do. After replacing the ICs we were using with a different pair, I noticed a look on his face that revealed to me he heard, not just a difference, but a very noticeable difference in their sonics! Which is exactly what he said as soon as the song stopped. His problem was created before coming to my home. He had tried different ICs on his system, but, didn't hear a significant difference and came to the immediate conclusion that 1) wires all sound the same and 2) those who say differently are just fooling themselves. That's NOT what he believes today.
Inmate, my friend, if there's any "problem" with audiophiles/music lovers, it's that they often form staunch opinions based on too little knowledge, experience, or trials. We all only know what we know about audio based from what we've heard. Then we form opinions based on the knowledge we have or we create a post on some audio forum based from that same audio knowledge. While the reality is that those opinions we've formed could actually change based on the very next audio system we listen to...
I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
"unless extensive tests are done, we'll never know who's right or wrong will we? "
If you'd read your AES and ASA journals, you'd know that a plethora of tests, experiments, studies and research have been done for at least 70 years!
Ya gotta get your head out of the audiophile mags and read some real science. Start here: "Why You Hear What You Hear" by Dr. Eric Heller. Go from there.
:)
I am not an Armchair audio expert. I am a degreed electrical engineer, a longtime recording engineer at the largest recording studio in Chicago and technical adviser to two brick and mortar high end audio stores in Chicago. I am the engineer on Buddy Miles Them Changes album, have recorded the Chicago symphony, over 2000 TV and radio commercials and many location recordings. If I am not qualified to comment about this hobby then I am not too sure that you are qualified either. Next time try to get your facts straight before commenting.
Alan
My post was directed at tubeguy1954. Did I put it in the wrong place?
:)
Sorry if I misunderstood. When there are a lot of posts it is sometimes hard to determine who is being referenced. Well at least I got my credentials out there again. I do want to say that this is a free and open forum. Not really a professional forum even though there are pros here. I do not want to turn off anybody from posting here no matter what there background is. Anything that spurs conversation is good although I wish we, including me, would keep personal attacks out of our discussions
Alan
Hi ahendler,
I hope you're not suggesting that I personally attacked you? If you feel I did please include a link to the post where I did so ok? I'd like to reread that post. Perhaps you saw something that wasn't there like when you said I was either being passive-aggressive or sarcastic, when I wasn't being either to you?
I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
No, no, I did and do not feel attacked by you at all. As I said just felt the phrase "my friend" was a little strange. No problem, I always enjoy your posts
Alan
Alan I just read your other post and I can tell from your response your a person of integrity. If you read my other response it will explain more that I don't wish to repeat here! In all sincerity I wish the best "my friend!"
I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
"then I am not too sure that you are qualified either. Next time try to get your facts straight before commenting.""I wish we, including me, would keep personal attacks out of our discussions"
Okee doekee. ;)
:)
Edits: 12/14/16 12/14/16
I agree with everything you just said. I also apologies for my comment on My Friend. I have experienced a lot of rude behavior on this site and I guess I just have come to expect that. Happy holidays
Alan
Alan,
That's quite alright! I, too, have experienced a lot of personal attacks because of some opinions I have. IMHO there are some audio arguments that will ever be won. One of those is: Do wires have a unique sound of their own? I believe if you see two people discussing the POV that is the opposite of what you ---{ and by you, I mean anyone who has the opposite POV than the one being discussed }--- believe on this issue. It's almost always best to stay out of their discussion!
Why do I believe this? Because I've yet see anyone from one side of this argument win a convert to the opposite side of this argument. Usually a person from the opposite POV will join their discussion and usually the conversation stays civil initially. But as more people join in on both sides of this argument/discussion/debate, some will start to make mean comments about one of those from the opposite POV and this inevitably leads to name-calling, disparaging comments about each other and always near the end, before a moderator intervenes, just one side attacking the other!
I never understood why people let this happen over & over again. But, in any event it was nice talking with you again. I can tell that although we might have different beliefs about audio, your a gentleman and I respect that aspect of your personality --a lot.
I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Perhaps I am just too slow to pick up on aggressions and insults , but in my opinion High Efficiency Asylum is a quite civilized website compared to many others I regularly visit. That is one of many things I like about our
forum.
Hi Don,
I'd have to agree with you.
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Well past the sensitivity of your Dayton full range drivers (95.6dB)
Even I could hear them at that level. ;-)
Ivan,
You weren't the first person to bring that issue up. Almost all my local audio friends did as well. But remember I cannot hear above 15 kHz so the T900a being a good 5dB more sensitive shouldn't matter much. Granted I didn't have an L-pad, but a friend threw a resistor in the XO somewhere to make them almost even volume wise. My point is if I cannot hear above 15 kHz how did I hear what I'd call more extended highs, with more "air" around instruments & singers? If I had an equalizer and boosted the frequency at 5 kHz that wouldn't be the effect I'd expect to hear! The weirdest part is the bass seemed more taunt and deeper as well. Go figure...
I'm listening to: Feel The Rhythm by Daria
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
If you just use a cap for 10K, it'll pass plenty of highs below
that point. Only 6db down at 5K. So it's covering well more than
the "10K-38K" you stated.
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