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What are the options? I am going to put JBL 2420 drivers on them and I just want to explore what the possibilities are. I see pictures of people's systems with wonderful big midrange horns in wood, fiberglass etc... but searching the internet I am not sure where people are getting them. I was informed of the Volti Fc260 but wanted to see what other options there are. I saw one DIY horn but would have to purchase a lathe! So any manufacturers or whatever thoughts you have would be welcome. Thanks!
Follow Ups:
what's your crossover frequency ? - - there should be two Klipsch K703 in my mess - I think I'm looking at one - unless am confused vs a generic horn (? - have a lot of "lenses" called that by places like MCM) - -very small horn - only ~4.7" from throat to mouth. Mouth ~8.5" x 5.5" - there's a slow flare conic throat which looks ~1.2" in length. K703 is described as a tractrix horn. K703 were 1 3/8 tread so would require a thread to bolt adapter for your JBL. I don't know if there's much "acoustic" EQ with a 703
Karlson Evangelist
Edits: 07/19/16 07/19/16
Crossover frequency is yet to be determined. I am thinking 500hz as I heard a pair of JBL 2420 crossed over at that point and they sounded fantastic. Thinking I will use an active crossover that has the ability to switch crossover points easily so I can experiment. I have larger Altecs I can play around with if I really want to. For this I am really thinking I would like a large, round horn. But thanks!
Large round horns are immediately addicting, right ?
Well, I suppose a person will only answer "yes" if that's the sound he is after. To support 500Hz, a tractrix horn has to have a flare rate much lower. Bare in mind, the large round wooden horns you heard, are SB 140Hz flares. Granted, they are capable of much lower operation, but he loves those JBL drivers. You would need a minimum of a 340Hz flare. And then there's the crossover question. Next, what do you use below said horn ?
Horns sound their very, very, best when used with other horns. The beauty of your current Altec 19's is that all the fundamentals are being reproduced by the large Altec cone driver, and the harmonics and over tones by the horn with it's obvious characteristic of controlled directivity.
There are many paths to audio nirvana, but each path has it's own set of design challenges. Paul, it was so nice to have you visit us, in our East Tennessee region. There are many more systems to audition. Please don't be a stranger !
Scott, thank you for having me over. I absolutely loved your system. When I actually get ready to buy a set of horns in next few months I will make sure to check with you and Lawrence and verify that everything is good for what I intend.
I picked up one JBL driver and have another in the works. As far as below the horn, the plan is to use my Altec Model 19 woofers to start. They are connected to an outboard crossover, so it is extremely easy to hook them up to an amp and back to an active crossover. That's the plan at the moment.
Of course I don't cross them over that low..
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
I bought two active crossovers that have the ability to just flip the crossover point, so if 500hz doesn't work it isn't too hard to do something else.
I've got some baby "Paragon" style horns - oval - pea shooter type - smooth and lots of acoustic eq on-axis from beaming ;^)
Karlson Evangelist
will try to find one and get a picture - I think you could have some beaming from a long and slowly expanding Tractrix
Karlson Evangelist
Too funny. Do you have a picture of them?
Paully,
You can also go to WWW.diysoundgroup.com. They have various wave guides / horns made of fiberglass by autotech.
The more options the better. Thank you. I am getting ready to move now, ao when I get settled I am coming back to this thread and I am going to pick one and get to it. Thanks!
Check out Dave's Fastlane Audio.
He is also on the Klipsch forum under the name "Gothover".
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Cool beans, an economical option. I like the big horns that sit on a stand, but this is a nice option as the others seem to be a bit out of my price range.
Glad to help.
Give Dave a call and I'm sure he would be happy to discuss your options.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Type "AutoTec JMLC" on your browser. Also, "Azura" but it comes from Australia so shipping cost is costly.
Agree, the Le Cleac'h horns are better than tractrix. Or if you must do tractrix, make sure it has a round over at the mouth like the Le Cleac'h does. Also don't buy anything with a square throat - you want something with a smooth transition from the driver's exit to the mouth of the horn.
Try here - I haven't bought any, I made my own.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/autotech-horns.html
regarding Le Cleac vs. Tractrix, Beuce Edgar would disagree. IMHO - regarding round vs. rectangular mouth, we conducted several tests switching only horns and leaving everything else in place and found that rectangular mouth actually sounded superior to round, ceteris parabus. The photo is of my latest 340 Hz tractrix horn and the jig I built for it.
Edits: 07/24/16 07/24/16 07/24/16 07/24/16 07/24/16 07/24/16 07/24/16
I don't think you read my post very closely. I said avoid a square throat, not mouth. I said use a round over at the mouth, ie, a radius at the edge of the horn's mouth. This sounds much better than a sharp edge in my experience, at least with midrange horns. Le Cleac'h horns have this as part of the calculated flair. You can stitch something similar on to a tractrix horn and it will be fine as well.
Fair enough. The adapter that also serves as the driver mount provides for a smooth transition from square to round throat. I made two types of adapters - 2" and 1.4" (for Altec 288) BTW, another discovery we made was that in home environment Altec 288 bested JBL 2441 by a tiny little bit. I said in home environment because in a large room with the volume control considerably up, Altec 288 tended to be a little bright and then JBL 2441 sounded better. This can be explained with JBL superior power handling ability. Again, all strictly IMHO.
Hi John,
For a basic 2 way JMLC mid horn + direct radiator.. What XO (passive) do you find works best? There's the 'quasi-optimal 18dB BW' slope espoused by the late JMLC of course, but you may have liked something else that worked for you.. Thank you.
Regards...
Hi Fred,
Each case is likely different, depending on the directivity of both devices, relative positioning, and for passive crossovers the response and impedance of the devices. I usually use digital crossovers and play with the slopes and crossover points in software to get the best match I can find in the combined polar response. For my current system, for the midbass (15") to midrange horn crossover, I found a 6th order Linkwitz-Riley HP at 770Hz for the midrange and 550Hz 6th order LR LP on the midwoofer worked best. Those don't sum to flat, so there was additional eq applied to both drivers to get the final acoustic slope which ends up being a non-text book curve. I attached a screenshot - the solid curves are the initial slopes I used, and the dashed curves are with eq applied to get a flat response.
Hi John,
Thanks for sharing the details of your speaker XO.. Yeah, it all boils down to certain variables.. There's a steep learning curve for some non-engineering folk like me when it comes to this.. I mean, knowing where to start (beyond the empirical) with all the options for a mid horn 2 way with DR midbass. So I really envy guys who can "pick these things up" easily.
I've seen a photo of your JBL Be pro based diy JMLC wood mid horn with the 15" DR bass bin, plus modified horn tweeter on top in another forum almost a couple of years ago. It really looked sweet, and I bet it sounds sweeter.. I'm thinking though that with vintage type drivers (Altec-GPA small format comp driver) and Altec midbass, maybe I could get away with some mild Eq for the mid horn and likely non at all with Altec DR midbass.
Anyway, apologies to the OP for diverting the topic to crossovers.
Regards....
Hi Fred,
How much eq you would need would just depend on your drivers. I needed some EQ on both midbass and midrange to get it to meet my crossover targets. Here's my JBL 2225 in its sealed enclosure along with my target and the eq needed.
Thanks John... I'm curious as to what Active XO/DSP software, and what amps for multi-amping, and source/s you use.
The convenience of changing XO settings on the fly to hear the differences is really nifty..
Regards...
Hi Fred,
It sounds weird, but I use an old Mark Levinson car amplifier I have that has an AD Sharc built in along with 16 channels of discrete amplifiers. I'm using Crown amps for the low frequency channels. I have a miniDSP setup that I eventually want to transition to that will let me use FIR filters in addition to parametric ones. Then I'll have to find some different HF amps to go with that. I do all my filter design and measurements with Matlab.
Hi John.. Thanks for the details, miniDSP seems like a good affordable kit for relative new comers to active-digital.. That's actually cool, ML car amps. If they're relatively old, I'm also a fan of Madrigal Audo Labs designs, even if I still havr a bias for glassware. I guess you have the Harman setup for the mids and up since HK owns both JBL and ML these days.. Nice, I've seen a few folks use new Crown amps for the LF and low mids.
Thanks again.
Regards....
They look nice, not sure what the cost is. I would assume shipping would easily be several hundred from Australia.
I have been listening to them for three years now and have yet to find anything wrong with them.
Not that I have much to compare them to.
They replaced Edgar Round Horns of the first generation which were made of maple. I know he changed over to poplar which I do not doubt sounded better but there was a revelation when I inserted the INLOW horns.
I love the way they look and the contour Inlow uses would cost a fortune to be made of wood.
The walls are approx. 0.75 inch - they are very stiff. I like the idea of papier mache for horns - it might be the ideal material for horns in this range.
Mr. Inlow is a fine fellow. Always trying new things. He is the kind of fellow we need to support. He is a pleasure to work with.
Rick,
Are the Inlow horns you are using now much larger than the Edgar horns used previously?
Larger, and with a lower flare rate ?
Yes, they are quite large, as large as the mouth as my sub-500 hz horns.
The flare flattens out considerably at the outer edge.
I am pretty sure my EDGAR horns were much larger in diameter compared to what he was making towards the end.
I still have a pair of early maple Edgar tractrix horns; sound very good with my 2420s.
I have been intrigued by the Inlow paper horns, I had much the same idea of a form and screed rotating on a central rod, but he certainly has the know-how I don't. Looks like quite a project. Did you DIY them, or buy them?
Wish I had room for his 135hz horn. He's got some good looking projects.
No WAY I would make those myself!
John has the technique perfected and for the modest price he charges there was no question of not buying direct from a craftsman.
He is always coming up with new ideas. One of the most interesting fellows in audio. I am in aw of him and his abilities.
That's also cool and definitely in the running. And his DIY option is pretty cool, it would be nice to have good instructions.
You do not want to try this yourself.
Making the mold would be like a complete project in itself.
I think with more consideration you will see that what he offers is an excellent value.
I know I will be listening to mine until I can no longer hear. This part of my system is DONE.
That's good to know. I assume mine would probably turn out a mess.
I bet i would have made an even bigger mess if i had tried.
I made these DIY 200Hz Tracktrix horns a couple of years ago, and would do the same approach again. But with one modification.
In stead of the 2" throat, I would made them extend to a 1,4" throat reaching inside my 2" exit drivers.
The very last bit would be a 3D printed insert into the driver exit, making the horn flair starting at the very bottom of the driver.
Those are gorgeous and the type of thing I had in mind. How much to make me a pair?! Or do you offer a translation service for the DIY site? :)
The basic idea came from John Inlows "paper horns", but I used a chicker caft paper, making mine more rigid than his.
I used the Volvoteterīs excel shart for the horn flair calculations, aiming for 200Hz cutoff. This ended up in a 560 cm horn mouth and about the same length.
As for the driver I now use Radian 750Pb (2" membrane, 2" exit) -driver which sounds really fine with these horns. I have tryed some x-over setups and are now using a simple 55uF cap for a 350Hz 1st order filter (a stepper filter would make it possible to go lower).
The Radian driver starts to fall of about 15kHz which could be considdered to low, but I really prefer this sound without the pair of Fostex super tweeters I also have in my possetion.
Try google translate for the translation.
If I could make a pair, so can you.
Super tweeter is a thought for further down the line. I have built amplifiers from directions, if I can get the directions sorted out for this I will see what I think. It looks good along with a couple of other options. I appreciate the input and encouragement. I have one driver, after I get one more I can start on this!
side view of large horn.
These are my smaller wood horns
This isn't where I have them setup and they are on big bass cabinets
I use Martin Logan ESLs most of the time but I also love good horns.
I have a pair 2420 drivers and they sounded best to me on Altec 511 horns.
I am using the JBL 2435HPL drivers which are Neodymium magnets with berrilyum diaphragms. Love them with my wood horns..
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
If you don't mind me asking, how much did the big horns cost and how do you contact Andy? I have model 19s but have been thinking about building a different two way system with the JBL 2420 drivers.
Those big horns are birds eye maple and they run about 700 a pair as I remember...He is in Canada and I'm not sure he's still building them..He had plain wood ones for 500 a pair but this was 9 years ago.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
found these interesting, Michael
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Kenny
Why did you have to show me these Multi section horns that I now want?..THose are sweet.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Edits: 07/20/16
Ok, good to know. Thank you very much!
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