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In Reply to: RE: My New 414 In 614 With Azura 425 (Long) posted by Joe Roberts on May 15, 2016 at 11:28:42
I thought the 414 only went out to 4K ....am I wrong or what 414 variant are we talking about..
Cheers & thanks
Frank M
Follow Ups:
There is not a brick wall filter at 4k. I'm getting a lot of 6k out of mine.
Fills in well with first order in the 7.5k-8k range.
I've used 414A and 414Z interchangeably.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Joe,
Could you share your crossover design for this? I'm using a 32A and 414-8C's.
Thanks,
Randy
I simply used a 2.5uF WE oil cap on the tweeter. 8 ohm 802-g and 414A.
You have to halve that value for 16 ohms.
These values are for an 8kc knee.
I'd say the cap value is not super critical with such a slow and gradual rolloff. 2.5-3uf for 8 ohms/1.25-1.5uf for 16 ohms. The higher values might be a little bit better but I used the best sounding caps I had which were of the lower value.
If the top end is a little too hot with your drivers and cabinet, use an L pad. I built an attenuator out of loose resistors. I think it was in the -3 to 5dB range. I forget.
I don't know the 414C...only used A and Zs and I don't know which drivers you're using. Should still work but, as suggested, you decide. It is a cheap experiment.
If you are not using 802s, who knows what you will get, but try it. I doubt 806/804s will have enough HF output to pull it off though.
The presumed advantage is to get the crossover out of the way of that well behaved 12". 802s on 32 horns, crossed first order way high up, work real well in consort, or at least I think so. The few people who have been over when I had this set up thought so too.
I also tried a variety of high efficiency tweeters cut in at 8kc above a 414 running full range and some were quite good, but I liked the flavor of the 802/32 best.
I have a pair of just-rebuilt/remagnetized 802Ds that I want to try some year on 32s with my current WE 728Bs when I'm not feeling lazy. Maybe this will be that year!
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Thanks Joe! I am planning on using 802's as well. As far as I can tell, the difference between 414A/Z and 414B/C is the flux density (10k vs. 9k) and a corresponding decrease in sensitivity (99 vs. 96 at 4 feet). I think that the 414c would give an honest 97db. Nonetheless, I would need to pad down the HF anyway. I'll probably look at a 2.7 uF cap with an lpad to match sensitivities. All I need now is to stumble upon some unused 802's (or bite the bullet and contact GPA).
Randy
Used 802s are good too. Or find dead ones and send them in to GPA for revival.
I have to withhold judgement on the 414C. Never tried one, so I can't say that it will run without crossover like a 414A/Z.
If you can listen to the C full range on female vocals and it sounds pretty good, proceed with the experiment!
Try that with an Altec 15" and the test won't last long. Runs out of smooth at 1500hz tops.
The whole premise of this minimal sort of crossover speaker really depends on having drivers that can do it. The 414A/B is a very well behaved 12" and I think the 414-8C should be also.
If this scheme doesn't work out for you, try a 3kc or 4kc xover. Keep the vocal range in one driver. The usual Altec 800-1200-1500-1800 range crossover chops up the critical vocal band and there is no reason to do it with a good 414.
I stopped at the cap on the tweeter arrangement. Worked for me. Measured OK too, as far as I can trust my in-place, in-room measurements.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Used/dead 802's appear to be on the endangered list. GPA 802's are about $258 each, so would seem to the best option and help support support for Altec products.
We're on the same page with the 414; I would strongly prefer no crossover on the woofer, and it would appear the Alnico 414 is an ideal 12" with a natural rolloff. I've come to prefer that arrangement. I owned a pair of Dynaco A25's with a 10" woofer with no crossover and it was a wonderful sound, albeit a bit polite. The Devore Orangutan runs a similar format and serves as a model for what I would like this system to be.
FWIW, I also have a couple pair of Omega single driver speakers, including Super Alnico Monitors that run without any crossover at all. I have no problem with running relatively large drivers high in frequency.
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