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In Reply to: RE: Single driver love/hate ? posted by geezerrocket on April 15, 2016 at 07:13:05
Adding a sub and a super tweeter isnt all that bad. You can use them at just the extremes, which leaves most of the spectrum still covered by a single driver. Cross the subs at about 100, and the super tweeters at 10k or above, and you still have the important midrange well within a single drivers range. Add a series cap (or adjust the value of the one that is most likely already at the input) to the input of your amp driving the single driver to remove the bass below 100, and it will clean up the midrange a lot (you will need a signal generator and scope to do this best. If you dont have these tools, you can probably find someone near that does). This will give you the extension of a multi driver loudspeaker with little or no impact on most of the range.
Follow Ups:
I very much agree with others who have already posted to this thread. The best sounding way to use allegedly full range drivers is to instead use them as wide range drivers. I've used Lowther PM4s briefly and then much better AER MD3s. I never even considered settling for the limited frequency response of which they were capable. Instead I expected and found that using them as very wide range drivers (160-200Hz to 8 kHz) drivers with excellent woofers below and super tweeters above (in my case Fitzmaurice HT Tuba corner horn subs and Fostex t900a bullet tweeters above) took best advantage of what supposededly full range drivers can do very very well which is to allow most of the spectrum of music to be reproduced without crossover points.
Hello Don,
I would have to agree. I suppose there are many paths to nirvana, but I like this recipe the best.
I concur with your assessment.
If low or high frequency help is used at the outer reaches of the bass and treble and the full ranger is doing 90% of the lifting by covering 100 to 8khz, then they are still full rangers in my book.
I built these "full range" PAWO side horns with Merrill DCA drivers for my sister about five years ago. While the sound very good on their own, they really shine with the dual subs crossed over at around 95hz.
The system looks a bit disheveled because she set up a gaming console for my son to play with while we visited.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
I have had a few different full range single range driver speakers over the years, and listened to many others. I have owned 3 types of Omega's (all with subs), Lowther Medallion II's, and my current speaker Shelby+Kroll monitors which are a full range driver with a tweeter that comes in above our hearing level. Some that I have listened to are Musical Affairs, Cardersound Sachiko, and Carfrae Little Big Horns.
All of the above, except Musical Affairs, were augmented with either a tweeter or subs. Which to me begs the question; Are they really Full Range Single Range Driver speakers? By definition a FRSD speaker should contain only 1 driver!
I recently had the pleasure of listening to Charney Audio Full Range Single Driver rear loaded horns based on the Traktrix Theory. I was gobsmacked at what I was hearing and not hearing. I heard deep clean bass with no sub! An engaging midrange that drew you into the music like a sultry siren. Sweet and extended highs with a deep and spacious soundstage! What I didn't hear was limited range with compressed break up at higher volumes.
Fit and finish are impeccable and eye pleasing works of art. If your near Somerset NJ which is about an hour from NYC, and 1.5 hours from Philadelphia, make an appointment and stop by for a listen. Brian is very hospitable and will answer questions you might have about his creations.
"Grow older not up !!!"
Jimmy Buffett
Well, I bet they do sound nice. However, for a fraction of the price, a simpler full range with a sealed sub and super tweeter used at the extremes will probably sound more satisfying. Removing the last bass octave or two from the full range driver will lower midrange distortion noticeably. A 3 way 'full range' system will do it all, from small groups to full scale symphonic music. Just my opinion of course, but I have experimented with this a fair amount. One good thing, you can try it and always go back to full range if you prefer. I bet you wont.
Edits: 04/18/16
The OP was asking about Single drivers...not 3 way designs. I get your point that you could build an OK sounding speaker using a "full range" driver and augmenting the bass and highs for less money. I'm offering up my experience of a single driver horn that is very meticulously built and sounds waaaay better than it should! No crossover, no sub, and no tweeter!
The biggest problems with mostly all single driver designs is the enclosure and how it reacts with the room. Charney designed his horns on the Tractrix Theory and the result is phenomenal. The rear loaded horn seems to "couple" with the room. I listened to them at Charneys 14x19x9 room and at a nearby customers (friend of Charney) room that is a narrow attic room with sloped left and right walls that went from 4' to 8' and about 13'w and 15'l. Both rooms sounded fantastic with very good bass and only small panels for the first reflection point.
BTW: My Maestros will be ready in late May.
"Grow older not up !!!"
Jimmy Buffett
Is it possible to build a good Open Baffle speaker with a single full range driver? I was reading about Emerald Physics and am impressed with their Open Baffle designs.
Best Wishes
Bill
They have two problems: Poor bass, and poor highs.
I *get* the idea of no crossover through most of the audio range, and that's a good and attainable goal. But you're NOT going to get good bass and good high end from a single driver.
A 3-way is the minimum for a high quality speaker.
:)
Just hooked up the BK-16's with Fostex FE166en speakers. They don't sound bad right out of the box. More bass then I thought. And my tubes aren't very good in the bass department yet. I'm powering the BK-16's with a newly built TubeLab Single End 300B amp. All the parts in the amp need to break in also. I replaced the electrolytic caps in the power supply with Mundorf Poly tube caps. So I'm sure they all need to break in. And my Psvane Treasure MKII 300B tubes only have 14 hours on them. I read that the bass and treble from these tube will bloom sometime over the next 300 hours. So they are in the garage playing now. I go in every so often to check on things. So far so good. They claim the FE166en's don't need a super tweeter. We will see. I am building sub woofers for them. I let you all know how things progress.
You can often avoid the super tweeter, as I have heard single drivers with decent enough high end, but I find adding a sub is always beneficial. Be sure to limit the low end of the single driver to clean up the midrange. This is easily done by just reducing the value of a coupling cap that most likely is already in the chain somewhere. Select a value to give you -3db at the upper limit of your sub. To do this properly, you need to use a signal generator and a scope (or multimeter), so you can see the -3db point. Keep adjusting the value of the cap until the right value is found.
Which model(s) were you listening to?
Thanks for the link.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
geezerrocket...I listened to the Maestro and Concerto at different listening sessions. The Maestro is a very good sounding horn that gets it right. We put on a number of different tracks and I measured audible bass to 32hz with a test tone. We put Billy Holiday Lady In Satin in the stock Oppo bd95 and whoa! Every nuance of her well worn bluesy voice came through. I found myself leaning forward so I could touch her. I kept shaking my head in amazement and kept asking " how do you get that kind of engaging sound and deep bass from a 6.5" driver?"
The gear was Charney's 300b amp, stock Oppo BDP 95 with variable out for volume control, a noname IC and lamp cord for speaker wire. I couldn't stop shaking my head in disbelief but believed what I was hearing for sure!
Will post about the Concerto next...gotta run out.
"Grow older not up !!!"
Jimmy Buffett
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