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In Reply to: RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences? posted by baja on January 02, 2016 at 11:14:19
I know Wolf fairly well and I get to hear his latest creations several times a year, ETF and Munich show.
I'd say the general quality level of his stuff is very high, coming from the crazed German perfectionist that he is. He really is a maniac in this regard.
I have heard Wolf's field coil 515s in several settings. They sounded great.
That said, I am not sure that I would buy a speaker because it is field coil. Even within the subset of WE555 originals and copies there seems to be a range of qualities. Heard some myself and have trusted friends who have heard more.
A good Alnico speaker is better than a worse electrodynamic.
The closest I came to comparing directly was old 515s/288C vs. Lansing 415/287s back in the 80s. The Lansings seemed faster and more detailed and energized the room in an electrostat sort of way that the 515s and 288s didn't. But I went on to listen happily to Alnico 288s/416s for fifteen years after. My Lansings are part of the Silbatone museum collection now and I get to visit them often, since I doubt they are coming back here...
I also get to hear FC Iconics at Silbatone. Although the old Lansing crossovers are probably dubious, these are more lively than, say, an Altec Alnico equivalent setup.
And I personally have found the 604 difficult to get right. In fact, I gave up several times. And although I am still often tempted because I like the concept and historical air of 604s, I think it is far more promising to use separate woofer and HF horn so you can put a better horn in there for one thing, but also to avoid the crossover limitations of a cone that doesn't want to go high and a small horn that shouldn't be crossed so low, and to sidestep the interference between the two drivers resulting from the mechanical arrangement of the ensemble.
I had far better results with B&C 12CXBs and they were only a couple hundred a pair. Not famous classics but they worked quite well with no irksome anomalies.
I heard really great 604s one time (could have been 605s) in Jean Hiraga's room at Munich HighEnd some years ago. Super coherent, smooth and spunky room filling sound. Awesome. I intended to go back the next day and try to pry some crossover tricks out of this master of the passive Altec crossover but the room caught on fire overnight and the next day they were gone.
To me, the separate horn/woofer advantages may swamp the alnico/field coil considerations intellectually, but it all comes down to specific implementations and tuning in the end.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Follow Ups:
Hey Joe, a question while you're here- do you have any thoughts on the ALE or GOTO drivers?
Never heard Goto or ALE, personally, but I'd like to someday.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
From a lot of reading and personal research, I agree with Joe. Crossovers (and cabinet) make or break the 604 and they can be trick to get right. If it were not for the availability of the Rick Craig crossover I'd never have pursued the 604.
Also, what I may not have made clear in my previous post is that the Wolf's 604 has a lot of potential but realising that potential will be more difficult than it is for a GPA 604 (which can already be a challenge).
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Joe,
thanks for your detailed explanations and sharing experiences.
If your somewhen around in Germany you're wellcome to audit my 612B + 604 speakers.
In any case I would like to keep the 612B enclosures - in regard to your suggestions to split bass & HF, I was thinking of a system as for instance Western Labo offered, a somehow odd Iconic derivate with WE597 (of course their own 597 clone) on top of the enclosure. However I'd like to sit close to the speakers and listen also piano very often. I guess I might have some sweet-spot problems with that kind of system in my room.
I have heard the Western Labo 597A and it is rather harsh compared to an original or a GIP. GIP might be the best of all but they are stupidly expensive. I installed a system with 15As and adding the Labo 597A gave it a transistory electronic sound. Substituting real WE 597As totally changed the flavor.
Aa I was suggesting above, don't shop with your eyes or using the "field coil" label as ultimate decision-making factors! I have not heard all of the China copy drivers but I was under-impressed with that tweeter. And I can give you the names of a few German guys who have sold off their Chinese 555s.
GIP is also making a 415 now...no idea of the price but it will be HIGH! ;op Maybe it will be great...Haven't heard it.
A 415/597A system runs into the same issues as the 604 to some degree, small horn that doesn't want to go low and a big cone that doesn't want to go high.
Take a hint from the Iconic. You want a functional equivalent of the H808 horn so you can switch off the 15" before it gets nasty.
I think you could put a good midrange horn on top of that Altec cabinet to good effect.
I have been playing around with the 414A in such configurations. That 12" can play convincingly almost full range. I let it run with no crossover then cut in a 802 on various horns at 6-7k. Smooth and delicious.
414 is a really great LF through midrange speaker....and quite inexpensive.
I eventually switched to 728Bs for LF with 32 horns (currently) and 802s but the 414 was very satisfying, at 5% of the price of 728Bs!
If you visit the Munich HighEnd, come by the Silbatone room and have a Weissbier! We will have an extremely interesting WE horn system creation there. Wolf usually appears at the show also.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Holy cow Joe, where did you get that picture? I'm going out on a limb here, but that looks like a 612 cabinet copy made by Arthur Crawford in the early 1940s. Crawford bought Iconic components from Lansing and built his own systems, sold at his store Crawford's of Beverly Hills on Rodeo Drive. I have seen one other Crawford 612 and it likewise copied the general shape well but used too small a radius roundover bit on the front cutout. The one I saw featured a fetching flocked lime green fuzzy finish.
I also have another pair of Crawford cabinets that were originally fitted with Iconic components but are now loaded with "Crawford's Dimensitone" 604Cs which feature gold paint on the driver and crossover, and bright silver paint on the high frequency horn. These cabs are square fronted with a circular distributed port all the way around the driver and feature a burnt orange flocked finish. Farm out!
You are correct, Steve, lime green flocked with gold flocking on the horn! I listened to these Crawford Iconics last week in the Silbatone factory in Korea in stereo for a half hour. They are awesomely natural and a touch sweet. Really a fantastic speaker.
There is also an early folded Crawford paper mache horn (that I believe was made by Racon) in the collection. Takes a WE 555 driver.
Thanks for the info on Crawford. I had no clue what "Crawford" was but they made some pimped-out Iconics, that's for sure!
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Forgot to comment on the Field Coil Factor. I agree with Joe that field coil operation doesn't make it great, though it does help, if all other things can (ever?) be made equal. The original Lansing Iconic is a stunningly natural sounding speaker, extremely vivid and lively. Jim Lansing wrote an article "The Duplex Speaker" in 1944, and spoke of the progressive downsizing from Shearer Horn, huge theatre system with 375 Hz. crossover to Lansing Monitor (500 Hz.) to Iconic (800 Hz.) to Duplex (1200 Hz.). In my experience this took it one step too far, though necessary for monitoring in small rooms. The Iconic TROUNCES any 604 I have heard in pure performance, though of course it is considered a large speaker by modern standards. I have also compared the Iconic to a late 1940s Jim Lansing two way permanent magnet system... no contest.
No experience with field coil 604s, but the problem of 15"cone/horn mismatch can be addressed easily by unbolting 15" basket and replacing with altec 10" 425-8 basket with same 3" VC....See below "The ultimate Coaxial"
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=hug&n=164173&highlight=rafaro&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3D%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3Drafaro%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3Dhug
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=hug&n=164183&highlight=rafaro&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3D%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3Drafaro%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3Dhug
Rafaro
Joe,
thanks again for complex answering.
And yes, I am wondering to travel to Munich this year. If I do so, I will give a sign.
As mentioned before I owned a couple of VITIAVOX Bitone. I keep the bigger 6201 for a mono setup that suits me very much for its dynamics. Might be that the Bitone is comparable with the Lansing Iconic.
So I will take a rest for negotiating.
Thanks to all for replies & suggestion.
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