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In Reply to: RE: Herb Reichert: Our Man At Stereophile posted by Scott L on January 07, 2016 at 14:47:03
Wow Scott!
I couldn't disagree with you more vehemently. As you can see from the photo up above this post, my system is based on 1930's audio technologies, i.e., the Sachikos can be seen to have their roots in Harry Olson's 1937 patent application #: US2224919 and my SET amp is also based on 1930's technology. Granted they use today's best components, but they're still 1930's based technologies. So I'm not sure what that makes me!?!?!? Am I vintage audio enthusiast or a vintage audio technology enthusiast? Hmmmm... that's an interesting question, but that's not why I vehemently disagree with you. It's your statement of: "I have also finally come to realize (after 43 years worth) there is almost no sense in auditioning other persons' systems, or them auditioning mine. WHY(?)Because, the preconceived notions as to what is "correct" already exists in the mind's ear."
Scott I have 49 years in this hobby ---{and that my friend doesn't mean diddly-squat! It's not how many years anyone has invested, it's how much they've learned in the time they invested that counts!}--- My venture into all this started with music when I was 13 years old. My dad just came home from work one night and after he finished eating dinner, he informed us all that he was leaving that night and he wouldn't live with us any longer! My mom began dealing with her heartbreak the very next morning by playing repeatedly from approx. 7am till 7pm Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Connie Francis & especially Engelbert Humperdinck singing "Please Release Me". While I didn't like a lot of the music per se, the sound of the instruments enthralled me. I absolutely loved the sound of the different instruments. I couldn't wait for when two instruments would play the same music together. I would listen so intently trying to figure out whey they sounded different and yet sort of the similar at the same time. I really liked Frank, some of Dean and Sammy Davis Jr., but for the most part Connie and Engelbert were lost on me.
Eventually I started taking my bicycle out on the days when people could throw away anything that could fit in the back of a garbage truck. We lived near the corner of East Hartford CT. and Glastonbury CT. That was a lucky break for me because Glastonbury was a wealthy area and the items these people would simply discard as trash many people would purchase. So when I'd go out on this bonanza days, for myself I'd gut audio consoles and get tube monoblocks, tube preamps, tube tuners, turntables etc. for myself, but I'd also grab other things I thought were nice and I thought people might buy. So on some weekends I'd have small tag sales to sell them, ha ha ha. I was even luckier because back in 1960's they were actually delivering cases full of bottled soda to your doorsteps. I remember soda, milk and bread being hand-delivered to our side door every week! I took one of those empty wooden cases of soda and for the turntable I flipped the case over and cut a hole in the bottom. Then I flipped it over again and mounted the TT in the hole I just cut. Within a few months I had a better audio system than many of those wealthy people who were throwing their "broken" consoles out, but I digress!
Scott after those 43 years you spoke about being involved in this hobby, if you haven't yet learned what a clarinet, trombone, saxophone, piano and a myriad of other acoustic instruments and singers truly sound like in different ---{not every, but many}--- venues. Then my friend you have not invested your time wisely. There is such a thing as THE ABSOLUTE SOUND. Take a Upright piano or a Baby Grand and place it in a nice Jazz bar like the Jazz Standard which is located at 116 East 27th Street in NY. Go on a Monday night and you might catch the Mingus Big Band on "Mingus Mondays" Now I'd wager that sometime during their show their piano player would play either the Upright piano or the Baby Grand and even though they would sound different from each other, they would also have their own unique or "voice" when played at the Jazz Standard and that sound Scott is an Absolute Sound. It's the way either that Upright piano or the Baby Grand will sound when played at the Jazz Standard, If you went and listened purposefully a few times you'd come to know and recognize each piano's Absolute Sound very well and it wouldn't matter whether Orrin Evans, Helen Sung, or Jim Ridl ---{some of different piano players in the Mingus Big Band}--- was playing that piano either.
Singers and instruments produce not only the Fundamental note played but a whole series of tones in a relationship to that fundamental note called Overtones and it's the relative loudness or amplitude of each of these overtones vs the fundamental note that differentiates a piano from a guitar or Halie Loren from Kate Reid. Another area we need to consider is the Envelope or the change in amplitude over time of the sound! For example: a piano has a very sharp beginning or "attack" whereas a violin has a relatively slow attack. It's all these things together that makes a person or instrument have it's own unique absolute sound or Timbre and that's what makes each instrument sound different from one another. Look at it like this. When you first meet someone you don't recognize their voice all the time, do you? But in time you learn to recognize their voice anywhere! It can be on the phone, in a very reverberant men's room, an extremely large auditorium, an office as small as a closet or outside in a large field. You've learned to recognize that person's unique voice, or their unique Absolute sound. If you can learn to recognize a person's voice in virtually any location why can't you do the same thing with a piano's voice or clarinet's voice or any other instrument and/or singer's voice? The correct answer is YOU CAN! Just like you've some to recognize your different friend's voices in the various types of locations I gave example of previously in this post.
And finally I get to where I vehemently disagree with you. Scott once you've come to realize you have already learned to recognize what the unique or absolute sound of different singers are ---{I'll wager you know what Bobby McFerrin's or Elvis Presley's "Absolute Sound" is}--- you'll start to realize you can also learn what the absolute sound of any other instrument is as well! And once you've done that Scott you'll be able to easily go into anyone's home and determine whether or not their audio system is more faithful at reproducing the absolute sound or the unique voice of the different instruments being played. Now you'll no longer have any preconceived notions as to what "correct" is! Instead you'll know what the absolute sound of the clarinet, sax, trumpet etc. is and whether or not the audio system your listening to is faithfully reproducing that sound, or not! I love auditioning new audio systems. In fact, I'm having someone over my home Friday night 1/8/16 that wants to audition my system! Let me end my long-winded post by stating this was my attempt at explaining how I viewed what you said and why I disagreed with it. I meant no disrespect and I sincerely only wished to share what I've learned with you. You can do whatever you wish with this knowledge. Hopefully we'll see each other in the forum again...
I'm listening to: A Paul Simon Songbook by Bill Cunliffe
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 01/08/16Follow Ups:
Just as any lawyer will tell you the real legal education begins when you get a job - same with an audio system. When you get the stuff home and set it up - that is when the real work begins.
Sorry but another analogy - the one about if you are not able to become your own doctor early enough in life your life will not likely be a very long one.
A good sounding audio system is a matter of working with what you have in your room and figuring out how to get it to work.
All of the expensive ugly/pretty boxes in the world is not a guarantee of good sound.
Here it comes again - just as we are told one has to work at being happy - a good sounding audio system does not happen naturally or by accident.
That was one of the great posts, sir. Enjoyed it immensely.
Thanks for your kind words Rick. I was sincerely attempting to pass along some knowledge I learned down the long audio path I've traveled. It just bothers me when I hear " There are no absolutes in audio. " While I have no issues with anyone saying: " Just assemble an audio system that sounds good to you! " I believe some people can and perhaps even should do that provided:
1) the sound makes them happy
2) they don't also attempt to call it a system that faithfully reproduces an instrument or singers " absolute sound. "
In the long run we all should thoroughly enjoy our audio systems. Personally I always thought an audio system that most closely replicates the " absolute sound of instruments and singers would provide the most enjoyment for their owners, but after auditioning many audio systems through the years I've come to realize that's just not true. However as I said before, " if " assembling an audio system that sounds the way the owner wants it to sound is what makes them happy, then so-be-it! In the end I'll go home to my system which replicates the " absolute sound ' of instruments & singers as closely as I can make it do so and that's the sound that makes me happy...
I'm listening to: The Men In My Life by Jackie Allen
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
The lead POST suggested that "vintage" was THEEEE only way, to which I replied:
"There are no absolutes" meaning that there is more than one path to audio nirvana.
Not only are the vintage guys kinda closed minced, they can also be kinda snooty. By that, I mean, to look down their noise at somebody using solid state devices and monkey coffin speakers.
And, to be sure, there is an "absolute sound". It's called live acoustic music.
Scott
I have to appologize for coming off as snooty (and closed minced?), this is just an affectation I assume to counterbalance the snooty elitism that's been running rampant at Stereophile and TAS for some decades. This stuff was amusing back when we had a real market in audio publishing at the magazine stand, with Stereo Review, Audio, Sound Practices (the best of them all) and the Brit glossies too (which had first class writing, but have lately become just clones of Stereophile and TAS). Now we have a duopoly.
I still have a problem with there actually being an Absolute Sound. If you were talking of test signals and scope traces there might be something to this, however most of us listen to music, and there's certainly no absolute music. Even the example of live un-amplified performances could mean drastically different things, all the way from a solo clavichord to a full symphony orchestra. BTW the audiophile friend who inspired this thread with the vintage/accuracy question, my favorite quote from him is "There is no Absolute Sound". We have both agreed that the sound of an orchestral performance can vary widely if you just change your seat in the hall, and I have done so with free comp tickets I got from him for a rehearsal at the CSO. He was at work at the time in the symphony chorus.
Paul
...from what's apparently now become by-default the golden age of audio journalism: the 90's. One can't ignore The Audio Amateur magazine, which later spun off Speaker Builder and Glass Audio too, but has now become conglomerated into AudioXpress. These DIY magazines were'nt immune to some of the neurotic silly influence then being promoted at Stereophile and TAS though. One of the most astounding things I ever read was a statement in A/A where the author mentioned some favorite speaker wires of his, and his intention to someday build a whole system around them! Gah! This is like building a hot rod around your favorite ignition wires!
Paul
Paul,
I'd have to agree with you 100% re: the golden age of audio journalism. I also, right here, offer you a great big thanks because I went back and starting reading, "Space, the Final Frontier" I have not read it all because my attention span at reading a monitor screen is very limited.
BUT......
I think (?) part of the jest is you can't have imaging on a high-efficiency system that can equal what a highly touted snobby slick mag system can do ? HOGWASH I say !! It's all in the setup. To wit, most of these hi-eff systems are kerplunked down in whatever space it will barely fit. Most of these hi-eff systems barely address the mid-bass, and even if they do that, the all-important deep bass is totally forgotten.
Oh, it's always the same moaning and groaning: "There's really nothing down there" "Oh that's where the MUD lives" (not Harry Mudd) and so on and so on. What I see more often is this great big huge mid range horn often times loaded with a 112db/watt compression driver which runs the mid range par secter about 10 db's hotter than the rest and with rampant exclamations on mid range DETAIL MAN, listen to that detail !!
I have a really good friend with a totally decked out/modded Klipsch LaScala system. It sounds pretty darn good. It's showcased in a marvelously decorated room worthy of high-praise from Martha Stewart.
This is as opposed to my place which would earn high-praise from Oscar Madison,
but, "The [devoted]audio room is set-up PROPER-LIKE". We listen to music at his place and it sounds just fine; mellow,yet full bodied, very polite. Then, days later he comes to my place and listens to the very same (for example,
wake up your ears, "do the waap because you haven't dome nuthin !!" )
...and his jaw drops when the tenor sax jumps out 6 feet to the left of her singing with such intensity while the acoustic bass rocks the room with such definition and authority....he is almost speechless. Upon recovery, he remarks about such "incredible imaging" to which I reply,
"It's all in the set-up" (meaning total system execution). And you know what really gets their goat ? I am not a doctor, Lawyer, or engineer, such that there is NO-WAY I am able to do exactly what I am doing.
there is an "absolute sound". It's called live acoustic music... that was perfectly stated Scott! In that we are incomplete agreement! Now let's see if we also are in agreement when you say; "There are no absolutes" meaning that there is more than one path to audio nirvana. To me, there is an absolute in music reproduction. We should all strive to have our audio system's replicate the sound of live, unamplified, acoustic music as closely as possible to the original acoustic event. It sounded one way and the way it originally sounded was it's absolute sound. However there are different ways to assemble an audio system that can replicate that sound. Hopefully that's what you were referring to when you said, "There are no absolutes" meaning that there is more than one path to audio nirvana.
I'm listening to: Afterdark by Halie Loren
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Hello Tom,
The enthusiasm about your system and how much you enjoy it,has been very well established !
But, what if you could instantly transport 700 miles and hear mine?
It would sound so different that you would be quite uncomfortable with it, and would deem yours to be "correct".
I don't see where you have disagreed with me at all !!
p.s. I am exposed to live music at least one day a week, often times more than that.
Scott,I wished I could instantly transport 700 miles and hear your system. In the end it would either replicate the " absolute sound " of the instruments and singers on the recordings we played more closely than mine does or not. Until I heard it I'd have no idea which system I'd prefer. Scott unless you assembled an audio system that was just plain terrible sounding with bright highs that screeched so loudly they'd make your ears bleed, a midrange that was dull and muted and bass that boomed like a boom-box that many young people used to carry around on their shoulders, I would not be uncomfortable with your audio system at all!
A few months ago Arthur Salvatore invited my friend and I over to audition his audio system. Believe it or not, within the first 30 seconds of listening to his system, I knew I preferred it's sound even more than my own! Why? For one simple reason i.e., it replicated the " absolute sound " of the instruments and singers on the recordings we played more closely than my system does. That's the same and only test I have when I listen to anyone's audio system, period. I don't care what it looks like, I don't care how much it costs and I don't care what topology the components used employs. I only care how closely it replicates the " absolute sound " of the instruments and singers we play, period!
The system's I listen to and audition either replicate the " absolute sound " of instruments and singers on the recordings we play more closely than mine does or they don't. If they do replicate the " absolute sound " of the instruments and singers closer than my system, I prefer that system more than mine and if the don't replicate the " absolute sound " of instruments and singers more closely than my mine does, then I prefer my system more and that's it in a nutshell!
I'm listening to: The Men In My Life by Jackie Allen
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 01/08/16
Tom,
It's very refreshing to read about your positive attitude towards
auditioning others' systems. It is very uncommon indeed !
Scott I may be mistaken, but I believe when others cannot positively audition another audio system that replicates the sound of singers and instruments closer to their "absolute sound" than their own audio system does! It's because that person loves their equipment more than the music. If these people truly loved the music more than the audio equipment they couldn't help but be moved by hearing it more faithfully or correctly replicated.
I'm listening to: Afterdark by Halie Loren
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Tom,
A most excellent point !
I remember during my early years when blessed with the chance to listen to
a "higher class" audio system, was a real treat !
Also, let me state right here, when I say "the vintage guys are closed minded", I certainly don't mean ALL of them, just SOME of them.
I have to admit that in the past I've avoided using the phrase "absolute sound" as it caused me to picture someone listening to some shoebox sized monkey coffins, driven by an S.S. amp with enough negative feedback to choke a horse, while thinking " I'm listening to the Absolute Sound of a symphony orchestra!" because of what they read in Stereophile/TAS, but I have to admit that after reading your heartfelt essay that I may have to re-think this prejudice of mine. I'm still having problems though with the misuse of the word "accurate" and it's frequent mal-appropriation by what's left of the audiophile press though. Ditto for the also frequently misapplied "neutral".
Geez, what a story you've told!
Paul
BTW With a magnetic monster like the Lowther driver, there's basically no choice but to horn load it, be it front, back or double loaded, and all iterations are fair game.
Plato had a lot to say about this.
...and very accurate and neutral shadows they are, with Pace, Rhythm And Timing too.
Paul
Huge convoluted design boxes to enable inadequate to purpose, sized drivers pretend they aren't... ie 'work' below 200hz
Buy Hey! there's a Product for every taste.. it's a complex world.
You are aware that Lowthers were intended for front loaded horns ?
Clearly you like your setup.. great! So what ?
Edits: 01/07/16
B
In a back loaded horn design it's necessary to make the throat of the back horn smaller than what would be used in a front loaded horn where maximum efficiency would be a goal. This is because the output from the horn would tend to over power the output from the direct radiating front of the driver in a BLH if this imbalance was'nt addressed. While this limits the efficiency of a BLH compared to a front loaded horn design, the upside is that the bass output below the horn cut off becomes more of a useful player in the bass response with a BLH due to the fact that the horn is less efficient.
Paul
Huge convoluted design boxes to enable inadequate to purpose, sized drivers pretend they aren't... ie 'work' below 200hz
There's a product for every taste.
You clearly like them.. great! So what ?
Edits: 01/07/16
Speakers, IMO, are the most colored component set in a music reproduction kit. That is bad news. But that is also good news. No other component lets you tailor your system's sound to what YOU like. The only ears I have to impress are mine. I, too, believe that acoustic music is the benchmark for the 'absolute sound'. I get a chuckle out of statements like " I have noted that those who are stuck in vintage, are very closed minded" In my case nothing could be further from the truth.Since the mid 60's a music system has been central to my entertainment. I have run the full gamut of PP tubes to SS, SS Class A, back to tubes SEP, to high powered tubes PP & Triode and finally for the past few years DHSET's. Am I stuck "stuck in vintage"?...hardly, but the 45's in one set of amps do have a sticker that states the tubes should be changed mid 1937. My current "vintage" amps are BottleHead SET's. Yes, vintage designed power tubes. But a design brought to the market in the last 20 years by a designer I have learned to trust. Am I closed minded?...again, hardly. I did set a goal to build as much of my equipment as possible. (I originally started this long journey, like many others building a DynaKit ST70.) Is vintage really better? Depends on your ears. The technological advances in audio manufacturing have generally been more focused on reducing costs and automating production then actual sound reproduction improvement. Marketing has taken on the task to convince the marketplace of sonic improvements, even when it wasn't in the EE's scope of work.
So back to the "absolute sound". I played french horn. Timbre is my first criteria. If a system cannot reproduce the subtle cues that allow one to tell one instrument from the other, it doesn't work for me. But that also gives a pretty clear definition of my preferred musical genres. I had the pin point imaging, with the original Gallo Nucleus Solo speakers. They remained in the main system for years. I have never heard speakers that imaged better AND accurately captured the proper timbre. But, IMO, pin point imaging does not exist in live music, it is an artifact of the recording process. I do not hear pin point imaging at Davies Symphony Hall, Great American Music Hall, SF Jazz Center, Bill Graham Civic Auditorium, The Filmore, Slim's, Yoshi's or any other of a multitude of venues for live music I have attended.
I am admittedly biased in Paul E's, the OP, favor. He was instrument in getting my 60's EV horn system sorted. And I agree with his comments in the opening post. The only ears you have to please are your own!
Edits: 01/09/16
Thanks !
That was a very well thought out post. In particular, I like this:
"Is vintage really better? Depends on your ears"
Geary,
Since you are right there at their head quarters, would you consider evaluating a Parasound Halo pre-amp in your main system ?
"Geary,
Since you are right there at their head quarters, would you consider evaluating a Parasound Halo pre-amp in your main system ?"
Possibly. Would need more information. I am, somewhat, a Parasound fan. I use their multi channel amp in the home theater set up and 2 channel amp for the subs in the audio kit, (When they were in use. not currently).
Let me know your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Geary
"Geary,
Since you are right there at their head quarters, would you consider evaluating a Parasound Halo pre-amp in your main system ?"
Possibly. Would need more information. I am, somewhat, a Parasound fan. I use their multi channel amp in the home theater set up and 2 channel amp for the subs in the audio kit, (When they were in use. not currently).
Let me know your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Geary
Perhaps the Parasound Halo JC 2, or, to be even more impressed for
the asking price: the Halo P5
By the way, Grainger49 says hello. He came by to check the relative phase
of each section of my 4 way, to each other, respectively.
GREEN GREEN RED All good :)
Wow, as usual, a small world! Please extend a cheery hello to Grainger!! He is a good man!
As to the Parasound preamp, if someone locally had one to audition I would be willing do so. I have long lost my contacts/relationships with the ever dwindling number of local high end audio dealers. That is a "downside" to being in the DIY world for a rather extended period of time. I still do turntable set up for a couple of dealers, but haven't had a request in about 6 months. Neither is a Parasound dealer. Most of the remaining dealers survive on HT rather than 2 channel audio.
Cheers,
Geary
Geary
That's another grievance I have against the Knights of the Soundstage: that a live symphony orchestra does'nt actually image all that well by the benchmarks they have established. If you close your eyes and try to visualize that you can accurately point to various instruments during a performance, you'll find that this just does'nt work much of the time. The string section, which is comprised of the first and second violins etc. is spread across the left and right. A solo violin can be localized of course. While a solo trumpet can be localized if your seat is near the axis of the horn, the rest of the brass section will not have the bells of their instruments pointed directly at you, so that most of their sound will be reflected. If the recording microphones are placed way up high, this will tend to flatten out the sound stage, but tighten up the localization of various instruments. As you point out this is an artifact which is probably not an accurate reproduction of the performance as someone would hear it in the actual human seats.
Paul
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